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 landfall
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 02:07 PM |
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Help! Dual RPR (IDF) Tuning problem
I have just switched from a pair of Weber ICT's to a pair of RPR (IDF's) on a type 1 1600 DP engine.
Upon setting them up I have the idle set at the recommended idle speed and balanced, the idle jets are 52 and the engine idles smoothly with 1 1/2
turns out on mixture screw.
The mains are 120 and air 200.
Readings appear to be within OK on my gas analyzer.
On the road test the car accelerates reasonable but not crisp, however when turning a corner and presented with a climb it dies immediately, running
on two cylinder (1&2) it now would appear. Stop, select 1st - take off and run up to 4,000RPM gets you up the hill. Changing up a gear earlier
results in death.
Now back in the workshop, I wound in the mixture screw on each cylinder until the engine misses. Cylinders 1 & 2 (RH Carby) works a treat.
Cylinders 3&4 (LH Carby) when wound all the way in makes no difference?
To me this represents a problem with the idle circuit on the LH Carby? I have removed the jets, cleaned them out and same for the carby.
Any suggestions thoroughly appreciated.
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vwo60
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 06:03 PM |
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What size chokes are in the carbs.
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landfall
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 06:06 PM |
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28mm
Have tried them with both an SVDA Distributor that I was using with my ICT's without a problem and a 009 Distributor I had previously used.
The engine has done 3,000 since a total rebuild. Still 1600cc, port and polished heads, standard valve size, moderate cam with 1:1.25 rockers,, light
flywheel. C/W crank, fully balanced.
Was running very well with the ICT's just running out of a little steam on the long Tasmanian hills. Thought that the IDF'type carbies would cure
this problem.
Using the long offset CBPerf manifolds.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 06:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by landfall
Upon setting them up I have the idle set at the recommended idle speed and balanced, the idle jets are 52 and the engine idles smoothly with 1 1/2
turns out on mixture screw.
The mains are 120 and air 200.
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Personally, I reckon you need 32 chokes.
That is based on my experience, AC.net and others.
But what ever works
| Quote: | Originally
posted by landfall
Now back in the workshop, I wound in the mixture screw on each cylinder until the engine misses. Cylinders 1 & 2 (RH Carby) works a treat.
Cylinders 3&4 (LH Carby) when wound all the way in makes no difference?
To me this represents a problem with the idle circuit on the LH Carby? I have removed the jets, cleaned them out and same for the carby.
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Correct - reckon there is a boogie in the LH carby
Maybe water?
What happens when you pull #3 or #4 plug wire?
What colour are #3 or #4 plugs?
You DEFINITELY got them balanced?
Did you use a synchrometer?
or just your ear?
Futue te ipsum!!!
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landfall
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 06:57 PM |
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I have balanced them with and without the linkages connected using a snail type balancer.
Idle is perfect with and without the linkages hooked up.
Giving it a quick rev. from idle without any load it picks up without hesitation. Goes up our short and very steep (read MT Everest) driveway without
a hitch. On the road, as I stated, turn a corner in second gear and go to accelerate up a hill and die, back to first and accelerate but do not change
to second too early or the same dying.
Back in the workshop with engine at operating temp. any adjustments on LH carby idle mixture screws, either in or out is a waste of time.
Suspect dodgy carby, but would like to explore all avenues first.
Thanks for your replies so far.
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cnfabo
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 08:57 PM |
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Could it be a fuel blockage on that side.getting enough fuel at idle but not with more revs??
If not maybe get them ultra sonic cleaned if all else fails.can't hurt and it's cheap
I remember always chasing fantom issues with Webber's,well not always but it was a pain in the ring
Fabo
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landfall
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 09:24 PM |
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Anything is possible.
Thinking it through tonight I will swap sides tomorrow to eliminate any other possibilities other than the carby.
Fuel blockage doesn't make sense as the idle is perfect, cannot get cylinders 3&4 to misfire. I would think that when I close the mixture screws
at idle the cylinder should misfire.
I will however recheck everything again tomorrow.
As for getting them ultrasonically cleaned, even if someone did that sort of work in Hobart, I would not be prepared to have it done. These are new
carbies out of the box and I paid RP extra to set them up and jet them.
Once I have determined if it's my adjustment at fault or it is a dud carby, I will return it.
I'm hoping someone can come up with something I have missed out on checking.
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cnfabo
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| posted on April 10th, 2016 at 09:29 PM |
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They can be such a pain when they want hey...is the accelerator jet adjusted right
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dangerous
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 07:28 AM |
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First step anyone should take with carb problems is make sure the float level is correct,
and fuel pressure not too high.
No point playing with jetting and venturis unless these things are correct first.
Floats often get maladjusted in shipping.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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landfall
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 08:07 AM |
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Thanks,
Using a Holley fuel pressure regulator with gauge set at 2.5psi
Float level checked when I checked out the carby on bench before fitting.
Before removing it today I will be checking everything again and spraying some carby cleaner throughout.
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OZ Towdster
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 07:21 PM |
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Also check that the shitty choke extra fuel valves are shut , as have had experience with these on another set of chinese IDF's .
You'll have to remove the float bowl top / carby top to get to them and as you'll soon see they are a crap design at best with the only thing
holding them shut is the spring pushing against the gasket and as they have a low pressure compresion spring holding these choke fuel valves shut it
takes very little inperfection in the gasket etc for these to dribble fuel into the throats and upsetting the idle circut supplied fuel
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 09:06 PM |
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try spaying a HEAP of WD40 down the idle jet
It was easy with jet doctors on Dells cause the hole is on the top
Futue te ipsum!!!
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landfall
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 09:10 PM |
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Thanks,
I have gone through the whole procedure again today, adjusting float level to recommended 10mm, ran like a dog. Readjusted them again after talking to
Rod using his method (he had set them before delivery) and it ran better, but still the idle mixture problem.
Checked timing, spark plugs, etc.
Car is almost driveable, lacks low down pulling power. Makes more induction noise than action when placed under heavy load, light throttle gets a
response on the flat or downhill.
Seems to idle OK could be smoother, but sounds like 4 cyls. Simply cannot get any response from the LH carby.
Rod suggests that the 40's are too big for the 1600 engine, but I have been reading on various forums that a lot of people are getting good results
from them.
The dead idle circuit still worries me. How can I tune and jet the carbies when I can't get a starting point?
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 10:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by landfall
Rod suggests that the 40's are too big for the 1600 engine, but I have been reading on various forums that a lot of people are getting good results
from them
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What rubbish 😜
I am VERY surprised he would say that.
I will say, again, if anything, IMO, with 28's, they are jetted too small.
I have run stock 1600's with 32's and made good power
It is definitely both circuits dead on 3&4?
The circuits are free?
You have taken the mixture screws out and can hear air when you blow through them?
Try swapping the mixture screws over to the other carb.
Definitely no air leaks?
Plugs are a good colour?
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 10:36 PM |
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You 100% sure the butterfly cam the bump stops rest against are not too tight or loose.
I have seen them not return properly throwing out the tune
Futue te ipsum!!!
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landfall
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 10:46 PM |
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Hi and thanks for the reply bizarre.
First let me say that I am also surprised at the "too big" response, but in all fairness to Rod he said that he is going to sleep on the problem
tonight and contact me tomorrow with his thoughts.
During my many tries today I increased the idle speed to 1050RPM from 850RPM. On the snail gauge this increased the reading from 3.5 to 5. this was
suggested by Rod.
I also disconnected all linkages and had the car idling with the carbies operating independently - balanced. The mixture screws on the suspect carby
made no difference.
On the road test the car ran at 3000RPM on the freeway with light throttle OK, load it up and I got plenty of noise but not much action. Using a
lighter throttle and acceleration was possible, albeit slowly.
Running the ICT's the car is much more responsive so it's not an engine or ignition problem.
Ken
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landfall
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 10:50 PM |
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Bizarre,
Both circuits are dead.
Plugs very slightly sooted, more like a dusting, was able to simply wipe them clean.
Can hear air.
Rod has suggested advancing timing by 2 degrees, will try this tomorrow.
Thanks for the replies.
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ragged
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 10:53 PM |
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Quote " however when turning a corner and presented with a climb it dies immediately"
What does your A/F meter read when it dies? and at what RPM?
Just read the last post. Quote "load it up and I got plenty of noise but not much action"
Again, what does the A/F meter read at that time?
Dave
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landfall
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| posted on April 11th, 2016 at 11:13 PM |
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Sorry Dave I do not have A/F meter readings on the road.
RPM on corner would be around 1500-1800.
From sound I would guess air speed non existent, car sounds like it wants to go but has run out of breadth.
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ragged
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| posted on April 12th, 2016 at 12:22 PM |
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Where I am heading with my questions is identifying what is happening around transition to the main jet.
With a A/F meter, you can see easily if it is a fuel problem, because there either is or isn't any fuel to burn due to the main jet not coming in/on,
which is why you get QUOTE 'From sound I would guess air speed non existent, car sounds like it wants to go but has run out of breadth" Air speed is
there but no fuel!
It's all about main, air correction jet and emulsion tubes and the correct combination. Much easier if you can read the A/F ratio to guide your
changes.
It is a common problem I have seen with big carbies on little engines, but it can be fixed. I'll try to explain a little more later tonight.
Dave
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landfall
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| posted on April 12th, 2016 at 05:03 PM |
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Appreciate your thoughts and input Dave.
I played around with it quite a bit today, small adjustments including swapping the SVDA Distributor for an 094 mechanical advance unit. Advanced
timing two degrees at the suggestion of RP.
Some things worked and not others. I basically have two test circuits. The first involves a left turn at a round about and up a steep hill, this is
the one that does all the damage. Initially I was having to stop about fifty to one hundred metres around the corner, select first and try again.
After considerale mucking about today I was able to stay in second but no acceleration.
Second circuit is freeway with a long hill, once again from a round about. With the ICT's I could go up that hill at 70>80kph in third. Presently
I can barely manage 50KPH.
Talked to Rod this afternoon and he is going to send me another carby and some idle jets.
It has us both stumped, it idles smooth, accelerates OK under light load and goes good on the freeway. But as he says, when I stamp on the accelerator
it should rocket away, not go to sleep.
Ken
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shokwave2
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| posted on April 12th, 2016 at 06:31 PM |
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Drop the fuel pressure down to 1.5- 2psi, maybe flooding carbs, fouling plugs. I run my IDF's at 1.5psi on my 2054cc. Have you checked that the
throttle plates open evenly and are at the same position when fully opened? Out of sync carbs can cause your symptoms, check your linkage isn't bent
or getting caught up anywhere.
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landfall
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| posted on April 12th, 2016 at 09:00 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shokwave2
Drop the fuel pressure down to 1.5- 2psi, maybe flooding carbs, fouling plugs. I run my IDF's at 1.5psi on my 2054cc. Have you checked that the
throttle plates open evenly and are at the same position when fully opened? Out of sync carbs can cause your symptoms, check your linkage isn't bent
or getting caught up anywhere.
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Talked to Rod this afternoon and that is a;lso the pressure he recommended. currently I am running 3psi and the first thing on my list for tomorrow is
to reduce it to 1.5>2psi.
Have checked the linkages and syc. all good.
Received a much better pair of extra return springs in the mail today, will also fit them tomorrow.
Appreciate all the suggestions and am working my way through them that I may have overlooked.
Feel like I am progressing, on Saturday I wasn't game to get too far away from home I am now planning on going on the car clubs 350km rally on Sunday with this set up.
Cheers
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 06:30 AM |
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Can o ask if you have a stock fuel pump or an electric one?
Futue te ipsum!!!
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landfall
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 07:09 AM |
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No problem, it's stock.
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 10:09 AM |
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Check the sealing of the top plate of the carb to the body.
Check the float action is free on its axle when not perfectly straight as if in the car.
Have had both these problems cause the cornering and hill issues you describe.
What happens on level ground when WOT?
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fish26
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 04:18 PM |
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^^^^ correct, it could be binding float. And yes the carbies can be too large if your engine combo is inefficient and lazy.
What exact heads and work, exact cam specs, c/r, etc etc.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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landfall
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 04:49 PM |
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Had a big day today, took the carbs/mainfolds off, removed plugs and checked everything.
Considering the engine has done 3,000km I did not expect any alarm bells. Plugs on 1&2 cyl a nice grey and dry, 3&4 a light soot and dry.
Compression OK all cyls.
Manifolds sealing OK at head and carby. Cleaned suspect carby with carby cleaner, checked passage ways for blockages and float level (again) checked
butterfly's and put it back together.
Checked all spark plug leads and electrical connections.
Tomorrow I will complete reassembly, hopefully start it up and rebalance carbies, check timing, adjust carbies and hope that problem side is no longer
a problem.
Rod rang me this morning and to be on the safe side he is going to post a replacement carby to me today. Can't complain about the service or the
amount of support he has given.
On that note, thanks to everybody here, you have given me plenty to go on with. Beats the hell out of becoming frustrated on my own.
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fish26
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 06:31 PM |
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So tomorrow you are swapping carby sides? You still havent told us about the engine combo, what is, it top secret stuff?
bitten by the bug..........several times
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Bizarre
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| posted on April 13th, 2016 at 06:39 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fish26
You still havent told us about the engine combo,
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by landfall
The engine has done 3,000 since a total rebuild. Still 1600cc, port and polished heads, standard valve size, moderate cam with 1:1.25 rockers,, light
flywheel. C/W crank, fully balanced.
Using the long offset CBPerf manifolds.
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You aint reading the whole story Benito 
Futue te ipsum!!!
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