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Author: Subject:  early type 3 steering column
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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 02:05 PM
early type 3 steering column


horn wiring in my panelvan keeps giving me a flat battery...
amp meter in series with the battery gives me 66mA drain..
disconnect horn and it is zero.
test column to outer tube and have resistance of approx 20 ohms.
as far as i can tell this should be zero eg isolated from each other..
my setup is same as wiring diagram and i have the bearing setup in first bearing picture.
second pic is what ive found on the net ...... do i need this plastic spacer??
and if i do why isnt it shown in the exploded diagram ??????
so many questions so little answers????

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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 02:05 PM



heres the exploded diagram

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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 02:11 PM



just looked at the machine7 website for the bearing and is says kit no longer contains plastic bushings ???????
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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 05:41 PM



Which ignition switch/column assy have you got. Is it the Aussie type dangly bit on the right of the column or the early type with the ignition switch across the top of the column with the steering lock. If it is the early type there could be a wire rubbed through inside barely making contact but not enough to blow fuse. Post actual pic of the column below steering wheel to make it clear which type.
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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 07:51 PM
aussie


its the aussie ignition switch not the over the top one...
i have disconnected the wire going down the column at both ends and done a resistance reading to earth and its not the wire.
ive got 86.9mA drain at the battery... pic 1

pull the horn wire and it goes... so its the horn circuit for sure... opened the brown wire under the dash that goes from the bottom of the column through an inline connector then out to the horn.
got the same or near enough current drain 87.1mA... pic 2

resistance readings at same point under dash with battery disconnected
285 ohms pic 3

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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 07:52 PM
more pics


and resistance reading from steering column to outer .....
300.3 ohms.

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posted on August 6th, 2018 at 08:58 PM



been trawling the web in search of an answer about the isolation of the steering column outer and the column itself and stumbled upon what maybe causing my problems.............
a conductive steering column coupler...... any thoughts anyone...anyone had one of these
i know it wouldnt matter if the coupler was conductive in the case of later wiring where there is a braided wire between the bolts on the coupler. pic1

and from what i can find it looks as though the steering column bearing is somehow the isolator between the column outer and the shaft...
can anyone confirm this ??????
guess i will find out when i take the coupler out next weekend

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posted on August 7th, 2018 at 02:59 PM



Did you try it with the two cap screws which holds the ign switch bracket to dash removed? Also, is the horn circuit activated only when ign is on. That isn't the normal early connection according to all the wiring diagrams. Better to make it that way.
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posted on August 8th, 2018 at 04:47 PM



ok so plan is to remove the steering coupler first and test it for conductivity.
while it is out i can determine if the resistance is the coupler or the bearing or the rubber insulators for the steering column or the screws holding the ignition switch.
see how we go this weekend......... its only taken me 18 months to get this far ( i just disconnected the horn to stop the battery going flat )

maybe then i can determine how the column is isolated from the outer cover ??????
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posted on August 8th, 2018 at 05:24 PM



I had the same issue with my 67 fasty many years ago. Unfortunately 'old age memory loss ' is catching up with me, I think it was the earth strap across the coupler and possibly an earth to the outer tube ?
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posted on August 8th, 2018 at 06:03 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by 1500S
Did you try it with the two cap screws which holds the ign switch bracket to dash removed? Also, is the horn circuit activated only when ign is on. That is the normal early connection.

The horn is normally fed through the ignition circuit so no draw should happen when the ignition is off unless someone has modified the circuit. Have you tried another horn on the car with the same result?
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posted on August 8th, 2018 at 07:41 PM



All the wiring diagrams seem to have the horn fused (third from right) off the battery + Les so live all the time. I opt for fuse 2 which is the ignition activated ones. Have you got a full assembly diagram of the Aussie N type of indicator assembly? As far as I can see the flex coupling has nothing to do with a short circuit as there is a bridge wire from steering shaft to the steering box. I haven't had anything to do with the OZ one since 1968! The one I have is the imported early model so could be a bit different. I can have a look tomorrow and see where wires go. It's 17 years since I put my current one together!!

D
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posted on August 9th, 2018 at 01:44 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by pv370
been trawling the web in search of an answer about the isolation of the steering column outer and the column itself and stumbled upon what maybe causing my problems.............
a conductive steering column coupler...... any thoughts anyone...anyone had one of these
i know it wouldnt matter if the coupler was conductive in the case of later wiring where there is a braided wire between the bolts on the coupler. pic1

and from what i can find it looks as though the steering column bearing is somehow the isolator between the column outer and the shaft...
can anyone confirm this ??????
guess i will find out when i take the coupler out next weekend



Just had a look at the setup on that part of my 1964 model. The wire down the centre of the shaft loops straight to the steering box side, no jumper over the rubber joint so take that one out of your one for a start.

Under the steering wheel without a major pull apart I can't see if there should be a nylon isolating bush. I do have a bush from some ????? model but too long ago. It could have been from a 1969 or a 70 model which we had. Looks like the bearing which was in it had a tab hanging out for a ground wire. You also have a later collapsible shaft but shouldn't make a difference unless it's rubbing somewhere on the column tube.

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posted on August 9th, 2018 at 08:00 PM



thanks for all the replies..............
this is in the 65 panelvan the horn is fuse 3 which is live all the time..... i did think of moving it to the ignition circuit but that would be too easy....
les is correct in some respect because the 72 station wagon i had with the later steering column (eg wipers on the column on a second stalk ) the horn was on an ignition circuit.
also from the research i have done it seems there were 3 different ways of wiring the horn circuit and these varied for pre 61 / then 61 and 62 / then after 62 but this was for US beetles.
vw then did some sort of mixture of two of the circuits for the later steering column cars....
some bearing were isolated with 2 half moon parts to go ont the outside of the bearing, some had the isolating bush you have picturedwith the little cut out being for a wire that was connected to part of the bearing.
others had a set of brushes halfway down the column and no wire down the centre..... and one of these configurations had the strap across the coupler...
maybe someone knows exactly what years and what models had what but it sure is confusing....

as i said above the plan is to pull the coupler first and test and while im at it pull the column and outer to make sure everything is as it should be.........
i will try to remember to take some pics and report back....
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posted on August 9th, 2018 at 08:02 PM



forgot to say that the panelvan doesnt have the collapsible column in it.
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posted on August 9th, 2018 at 09:21 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by pv370
thanks for all the replies..............
this is in the 65 panelvan the horn is fuse 3 which is live all the time..... i did think of moving it to the ignition circuit but that would be too easy....
les is correct in some respect because the 72 station wagon i had with the later steering column (eg wipers on the column on a second stalk ) the horn was on an ignition circuit.
also from the research i have done it seems there were 3 different ways of wiring the horn circuit and these varied for pre 61 / then 61 and 62 / then after 62 but this was for US beetles.
vw then did some sort of mixture of two of the circuits for the later steering column cars....
some bearing were isolated with 2 half moon parts to go ont the outside of the bearing, some had the isolating bush you have picturedwith the little cut out being for a wire that was connected to part of the bearing.
others had a set of brushes halfway down the column and no wire down the centre..... and one of these configurations had the strap across the coupler...
maybe someone knows exactly what years and what models had what but it sure is confusing....

as i said above the plan is to pull the coupler first and test and while im at it pull the column and outer to make sure everything is as it should be.........
i will try to remember to take some pics and report back....


We were confused thinking that it was your car in the pic with the coupler showing the collapsible column.

I know what it's like chasing something like this. In a younger life during the 1960s I had the horn blowing when the indicators were used. Was a bared wire inside the column casting (locking type assembly from imported models). The current Notch was getting a flat battery with the "modern" radio which has a live connection all the time for clock/settings. Had to put it to an ignition switched fuse as well.

Good luck at the weekend. Hope it's not too cold at Goulburn for you!!

D
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posted on August 10th, 2018 at 06:03 AM



I have never seen a Volkswagen where the horn is fed from the battery. (30)



I read it on samba, so it must be correct.

Sometimes Volkswagen dealers sell spare parts. Amazing isn't it!:lol:
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posted on August 10th, 2018 at 09:02 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by AA003
I have never seen a Volkswagen where the horn is fed from the battery. (30)


Type 3 1964 wiring layout. Was this way until 1967.

D

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posted on August 10th, 2018 at 04:54 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by AA003
I have never seen a Volkswagen where the horn is fed from the battery. (30)


brother-in-law has a golf R 6 cylinder job,
he was sitting in his car waiting for one of his kids at school when a 4X4 started reversing and getting close........went to hit the horn to warn them but keys not in ignition so no go....... he got backed into.

so i want to leave the horn circuit as it is..... just in case
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posted on August 12th, 2018 at 08:25 PM



found why my battery is going flat..............

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posted on August 12th, 2018 at 08:28 PM



the more i tighten the bolts the less resistance i get..... photo is just past finger tight at 1.25K ohms...........when it was in the car resistance was about 300 ohms
chucked in an old genuine coupler and all is fine......... no resistance so no current drain so no flat battery

just need to source a new one with no resistance
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posted on August 13th, 2018 at 12:00 PM



Chop that one up and see what reinforcing has been moulded into the block.
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posted on August 13th, 2018 at 05:15 PM



good idea...........
now i just need to source one with isnt resistive.......
these ones would be ok for the later model type 3 with the later collapsible column and the wipers on the stalk as from what ive found they have the strap over the coupler to ensure a good earth from the steering box..

need to find someone who will test one as i have in the picture before they send it to me as i dont want to have to buy 6 different type before i find one thats right.
(or i could just wire the horn through the ignition and forget all about this problem)
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posted on August 13th, 2018 at 05:45 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by pv370
good idea...........
now i just need to source one with isnt resistive.......
these ones would be ok for the later model type 3 with the later collapsible column and the wipers on the stalk as from what ive found they have the strap over the coupler to ensure a good earth from the steering box..

need to find someone who will test one as i have in the picture before they send it to me as i dont want to have to buy 6 different type before i find one thats right.
(or i could just wire the horn through the ignition and forget all about this problem)


I think the first option is best. With one which must have a conductive element in it you could end up with the horn continually blowing after an application.

Have you looked at this lot?

https://www.vollks.com.au/store/Urethane-Steering-Coupler.html 

Worth a try?
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posted on August 13th, 2018 at 08:10 PM



i did look at the urethrane couplers then came across some bad reviews of the urethane couplers falling apart

http://1967beetle.com/steering-coupler-disc/ 
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posted on August 13th, 2018 at 09:32 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by pv370
i did look at the urethrane couplers then came across some bad reviews of the urethane couplers falling apart

http://1967beetle.com/steering-coupler-disc/ 


I can get/check a NOS one for you up here on Wednesday. It is a NORMAL reinforced VW coupling from Vic B. Price is $40

D
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posted on August 14th, 2018 at 06:05 PM



that would be great.....thanks
heres a pic of the offending item

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posted on August 14th, 2018 at 06:06 PM



it is german made but not VW i dont think

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posted on August 19th, 2018 at 07:08 PM
fixed


put in a 50 year old coupler
(has a few cracks in it so im still after a new one)

no current drain 0.00mA
no reststance between the column and earth.

ordered a rag joint on ebay looks like it should fit........

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posted on August 26th, 2018 at 01:46 PM



Thanks to 1500S (Dallas) who sent me some "tufnol" bushes to replace the metal ones i now have the resistance at 6000 ohms instead of 200 ohms.
this will reduce the current drain from 60mA to 2mA and should by my calculations now take 30 times longer to flatten the battery. 90 weeks instead of 3 weeks.
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