| [ Total Views: 9176 | Total Replies: 220 | Thread Id: 15209 ] |
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 ratty 63
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 posted on October 31st, 2003 at 10:13 AM |
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aftermarket fuel injection
Ok, has anyone had any experience with this....
I am thinking about fuel injecting an 1835cc engine that is going to find a home in my Baja (if I ever finish it!).
After spending some time with my brother in his Baja with a bigger engine, and him having all sorts of problems with the carbs flooding and flat
spotting at the worst possible moment I have decided to do a little research about fuel injection. I wish to use an injection system that uses an
Oxygen sensor in the exhaust (I believe that they are refered to as closed systems). I know that these systems are available as kits from the US,
however the price is a little silly (OK, very silly!!)
My question is, is it possible to get a fuel injection system out of some other brand of vehicle, and modify the fuel map to suit the VW engines. I
feel that this would be the best way of doing it as you can pick up wrecked late model vehicles with fuel injection for next to nothing (eg, Hyundi,
Suzuki etc) - much cheaper than the systems in the US, and from what I can see, they would only require a small amount of engineering
work/modification to fit.....
Has anyone had any experience with something like this? Is anyone else interested in performing this sort of mod to their vehicle? I can't help
thinking that an easy starting, smooth running and economical induction system would be a great thing to have!!
Wotdyathink?
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modulus
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| posted on October 31st, 2003 at 04:55 PM |
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Hi ratty,
I don't have any experience with this, but some of the guys on this forum who do hasve contributed to this thread:
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5845
I think that a good, well-engineered solution for the Type I engine based on low-cost components (e.g. the Delco ECU from the Camira) would be very
popular, especially as people are paying over $1K for Webers.
Good luck,
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 31st, 2003 at 05:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
I can't help thinking that an easy starting, smooth running and economical induction system would be a great thing to have!!
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I think sticking a jap motor in will be quicker, easier and cheaper. That's why there are a lot of people going that way. Especially for
something like a baja.
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 1st, 2003 at 01:31 PM |
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Hi all,
Thanks for your thoughts and links - I am in the process of trying to find someone who has had experience with re-mapping "OEM" ECU's
just to see what is involved and the level of difficulty. I have a feeling that it will be too difficult to reprogram them, but the idea behind this
system is to be as affordable as possible without out being "cheap" - ie: works without compromise without expense.
I had also considered making it as easy to install as possible with the intention of publishing a "how to" page on the Web for anyone who is
interested in the conversion. Therefore, the more "bolt on" parts the better.
I am going now, to investigate the ECUs that Ben mentioned - has anyone had any experience with these system? What are they like to set up (from a
software point of view). Just so that you know, I'm not scared of playing with electronics and computers - I am a software engineer and have had
experience as an aircraft radio tech (but didn't finish my study in this field).
Wes, whilst I can see that it would be easier to set up a fuel injection system for an engine that it is designed to fit, I really am a big fan of the
air cooled VW stuff. There are so many of them still out there on the roads I just feel that people might like an alternative to their worn carbs,
that will also make the vehicles better to drive in all conditions. I have seen your conversion and I have to say that it is very impressive - but in
my mind, water and engines don't mix. (It seems that it always finds its way out at the worst possible time!!)  Although a few more Kw would be nice....
Is anyone running an EFI system on their air cooled VW with an aftermarket ECU? Any comments?
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1303Steve
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| posted on November 1st, 2003 at 03:05 PM |
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Hi
Im using Autronic on a 2.1 Wasserboxer motor http://www.clubvw.org.au/steve.htm
so is Leigh from these forumshttp://www.clubvw.org.au/leigh_harris.htm
Also read this http://www.clubvw.org.au/Programmable%20Fuel%20Injection.htm
I have heard good reports about cal maker, its reprogrammed GM ECUs.
I cant tell you how much nicer my car drives now after running IDAs for years.
1302Steve
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 08:08 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ratty 63
Wes, whilst I can see that it would be easier to set up a fuel injection system for an engine that it is designed to fit, I really am a big fan of the
air cooled VW stuff.
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That's cool :thumb I can see what you want to do, and I had the same idea's once. If you do set-up a how to page and managed to do the
entire system on a budget then that would be great.
The problem you will find is if you keep it cheap, then it will be very rough EFI by todays standards. If you set-up a newer technology EFI system it
will cost you, ask Ben for a price on how much he would set-up EFI on your motor for and you will see what I mean.
The jap motor's have multi-point sequential EFI which makes them run beautifully smooth down low, great for a Baja. Just don't go past the
jap motor option so quickly. Try to get a ride in a jap motored vw, it might change your mind. Where do you live? If you had an oval I would say stay
VW powered, but for a baja or buggy I reckon the jap motors are the way to go.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 08:18 AM |
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btw, the EFI discussion seems to come up here regularly. Here are two old posts on the matter;
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=8015
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5845
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 10:26 AM |
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Delco systems using the 808 based ecu (Camira, N13 Pulsar and VN ? VP VR commodores) are multi point sequential systems.
The software that the tuners use is called Kalmaker - look it up on the web, they have a decent web page which could fill in a few questions quickly
for you.
As far as I understand it, to have a Delco reprogrammed you need to change the EPROM chip in it with a programmable one from Kalmaker (in the eastern
states somewhere, I think sydney). I think these chips go for about $450. That and the purchase of the kalmaker software and you can tune the bloody
thing yourself if you want to.
I'm still planning to go efi myself too. I agree - air cooled is cool, and to go efi on a vw motor would be great. Wes keeps forgetting that all
Jap motors are water cooled, radiators are easy to mount in a Baja or buggy, but result in some fairly major cutting in a full bodied beetle. Dont get
me wrong ! - I love engine conversions. Reubs car and Wes's baja are two of the best I've ever seen (and thats not just in the vw world
either). Vut its horses for courses, and my horses are going to be provided by what Mr Porsche intended to put in the back (albeit just slightly
tweaked )
The other way you can do it is to get a friend in the states and import the full injection gear off of a mexican beetle. There was a Haltech ecu and
mexican beetle manifolds and wiring loom and sensors for sale on here a month or so ago for $1000 - never heard if the guy sold it or not.
Keep looking, but do your homework first and plan the entire system before you purchase anything.
Doug
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 11:36 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Doug Sweetman
Wes keeps forgetting that all Jap motors are water cooled, radiators are easy to mount in a Baja or buggy, but result in some fairly major cutting in
a full bodied beetle.
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I don't forget, that's why I said...
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
If you had an oval I would say stay VW powered, but for a baja or buggy I reckon the jap motors are the way to go.
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If you've mutilated them enough to make it a baja / buggy, then you might as well go a step further and stick a jap motor in there :thumb
Having said that I would like to see someone get a cheap VW motor EFI system sorted. There's a lot of interesting ideas floating around.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 02:07 PM |
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Always on the ball wes !
Are you ever going to stick a set of slicks on the rear of yours and take it down the drag strip ? Would be interesting to see your times..... should
be quick (esp if 6.3 second 0 - 100 is anything to go by)
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vw59
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 04:33 PM |
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Camira $250 trading Post - for that you get injectors/ computer, senors, map sensor, throttle body, fuel regulator.
Just need an old manifold, welder and external fuel pump. You get most of these parts off ebay!
The cost is paying the Delco accredited software workshops to stuff around.
The cheaper alternative is a screw driver Microtech if your going for rock bottom costing.
Surely someone here is looking for cheap EFI and willing to put the time in to learn. I did it, great experience loved splicing looms together and
learning the do's & dont's of automotive. Best way to get a handle on technology.
Cheers Leigh
A 12 sec street car that is street driven!
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 04:46 PM |
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Leigh, did I understand you correctly? Are you running a Delco EFI computer in your vehicle?
I have spent all day looking around on the internet and it looks like the Delco system is the best way to go (it appears to be the most flexable),
however I am trying to clarify the total cost of such a system - it appears to require an upgrade board ($550 :o) to be able to be programmed or an
Eeprom burner (which requires a royalty to be paid for every new Eeprom you burn ).... I'll post the results as soon as I get them
Any comments anyone...?
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 04:50 PM |
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Other mods
...Wes, whilst I am asking questions, what other mods did you have to do (specifically in relation to the FI) to your vehicle - ie: bigger fuel lines,
surge tanks, etc? How did you go about doing the mods? Any pics?
Ross
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 3rd, 2003 at 04:59 PM |
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Listen to Leigh (vw59), his car is very very nice, and he's a friendly guy too.
As for mods, yes I had to do quite a few. 8mm feed and return fuel lines, a surge tank. Some of the info is in the other two posts, the rest is on my
website...
http://offroadvw.net/bajawes/linktoV6.htm
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vw59
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 06:26 AM |
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Geeez thanks for that Wes, nah I'm just trying to be helpful. I learned the hard way the first time, so like to help out others where I can.
No I'm running an aftermarket Autronic unit. I looked into Delco and like you suggested getting the EPROM's reprogrammed was the most
expensive part. That's why I suggested a screwdriver Microtech, they are very very cheap, reasonably old but do work. Sure they aren't the
latest and greatest but it will work fine. Many cars here in Australia used them for years with great success until technology moved along with
laptops and handsets.
Like you said the ancillaries are the cheap bit the programming costs the heap. But if you can get an aftermarket unit you can play with it yourself
until it's close to correct, then hire an EGO sensor to get it spot on.
The way I see it is my time is free and I'm learning, but someone elses time ( Delco programmer) costs money plus I'm not able to change the
program if you make changes to the engine ie: camshaft, etc etc. Plug & Play is my way of looking at it.
Hope this helps
Cheers Leigh
:bounce:bounce
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 09:37 AM |
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Early research results....
Thanks for you comments and suggestions, they have enabled me to spend an entire day checking out EFI products on the net....
I have had a look at a number of different types of FI systems that are available and each of them have their advantages and disadvantages. The one
that has generated the most interest (in my mind:o) is the Delco system, which uses the Kalmaker software to program it. This software allows the
user to program their own FI computer to whatever settings they choose using a laptop computer (PC) - apparently their isn't much that can't
be changed! Their customer service is good to - I have sent emails to all the companies that I have looked at so far and, although only early days
yet, the Kalmaker crowd are the only ones that have responded.
The price is a little steep for a budget system - $1100 - includes software, Delco 808 computer with real time conversion. Still required (not
included in this price) are all the sensors, injectors etc - BUT - these are the computers used in the GM range of cars (2.0 Camira, VN... Commodores,
Astras etc) and therefore should be quite easy to find compatable sensors and even entire computers in the future. Apparently (according to Tpiconn -
the sellers of the Kalmaker system), the distributer from the Camira will fit the VW's once a "flange on the housing is turned down to
fit". Sounds fairly easy so far.
I have just emailed them again to confirm the price of the 808 computer with the real time conversion on its own - incase I decide to do another
different car in the future, as I will already have the software it will be less than the initial price, but there are several different prices listed
on their web site. If you would like to take a look yourself go to: http://www.kalmaker.com.au/index.html
Any comments anyone? I would like to know what you think....
Thanks Wes for the link to your web site - WOW! What else can I say - its difficult enough finding the time to do a conversion like that, let along
keep a step by step Diary/web site of the conversion process. You were right - it did answer a number of questions. I was surprised that the fuel in
the surge tank appeared to suffer from overheating! Now thats something I wouldn't have thought of! I have one question for you - how did you
go about securing the two new fuel lines in the tunnel? Just at each end (where they exit the tunnel) or did you cut into the tunnel and fix it with
brackets? Would it be acceptable to run the lines down the outside of the tunnel (in a similar position to the rear brake line, but on the opposite
side) or is there some reason why this should not be done?
Also, (sorry, I know that this post is getting quite long ) Leigh, how did
you perform the fuel line mods to your vehicle and what sort of fuel surge system are you using? I am so certain that I am installing an EFI system
that I am about to do the fuel line mod to the pan now (whilst it is seperated from the body) so any info will be a great help.
Thanks heaps everyone - please feel free to comment on any of the above - it all helps
Ross
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vw59
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 11:32 AM |
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Hi Ross,
I completely beefed up my pan, ie: welded in an IRS rear end, seem welded the rear frame horns, dimpled the frame horns for Kobi CV's so I cut
the tunnel open in a few places and placed U brackets made of 1/4 bar inside the tunnel to thread fuel hose through. It's important to keep these
lines secure and free from rubbing on the clutch cable, pedals etc as well as where the lines enter and exit the tunnel (mine exit either side of the
gearbox nose cone)
I placed mine in the tunnel as I think it looks daggy to have things hanging under the car. We are lucky enough to have a clean sheet of steel on a
volkswagen underneath so why not keep it this way + can't catch on jacks etc etc
For a surge tank I've secured a polished surge pot on the front beam (2 litre capacity) fed from the tank by a Carter low pressure pump. Then
feeding the injectors using a VL commodore fuel pump). I originally used a VL commodore EFI pump for feeding the surge pot also but it lasted 25000
km's then died. The fuel was cavitating in the pump. This taught me to use a low pressure pump to feed the surge pot, I originally used the VL
for this because it was cheaper than a low pressure pump - strike 1 didn't work forever!!!
Leigh
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 11:46 AM |
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I understand where you are comming from Leigh, it would look much neater to have the lines inside the tunnel, however I was thinking of running the
lines down the inside of the car, against the tunnel (on the passenger side) for two reasons:
1: much easier to install - no cutting and welding and
2: I have already painted the pan (did this months ago, before this idea came up), so the minimum damage that can be done would be best.
This said, I would prefer to spend another couple of days setting the lines up correctly, rather than bodging it all up and have to do it again in the
future or not being happy with it.
It looks like the use of a low pressure pump to feed the surge pot is a must, from reading what you have just said, combined with what Wes has
written. I'm off to get some prices on this stuff. If you think of anything else that could help, please let me know.
Oh, yeah... what size fuel line have you used/would you recommend?
Thanks again
Ross
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 12:37 PM |
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I ran metal fuel lines through the tunnel, so didn't use any bracket inside. I clamped them together, and they are firmly attached at either end.
They don't seem to want to move anywhere.
Here's some more people's ideas on the surge tank issue...
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=9938
8mm fuel line feed and return. You should try to meet-up with some of the QLD buggy/baja boys. There are quite a few either with jap conversions or in
the process of doing jap conversion.
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 01:25 PM |
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more early results...
Just recieved an Email from the Kalamker crowd (already!!), the cost of an additional computer is $550 + exchange computer (as they require a mod to
be done)..hmmm...so for each car I set up it will cost $550+. Not too bad I suppose - What does everyone think? Would you be willing to pay $550 for
a user re-tunable EFI computer (only)? Is it a reasonable deal? What are your thoughts? (No, I'm not thinking of selling them - I'm just
looking for opinions)
Thanks for the surge tank link Wes, very interesting. I think I can see how it has to be done now. Originally I thought that the fuel lines would
have to be attached inside the tunnel (cutting and welding ) but as they
are 8mm each, clamped together and attached at either end of the pan, I imagine they would be fairly rigid - the trick is getting them in the right
place to start with!
OK, on a slightly different line here - does anyone know anything about Oxygen sensors (the ones that go in the exhaust and provide feedback to the
computer). I want to know how close the have to be to the heads (is in the 3 bolt flange between the extractors and the muffler close enough to get
an accurate reading?). Also, I read somewhere (I forget where) that there are two basic types - a heated and non-heated sensor. Does this make any
difference to the location or operation of the sensor?
Hmmm...so much to think about.
Wes, I will try to catch up with the Qld buggy/baja boys - are any of you coming to the Gold Coast Show and Swap? Maybe I will catch up then.
Ross
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 4th, 2003 at 02:42 PM |
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Basically an oxygen sensor has to get up to around 400 deg C before it starts working, so it won't work when the car is cold.
So they invented heated oxygen sensors, that have an electric heater in them to keep them at operating temperature, and also to get them up to
operating temperature quickly and improve cold engine running / emissions.
With the VW having the merge so far down the exhaust, you'd probably need a heated sensor to keep the sensor at operating temperature. You might
get problems with carbon on it when it's too far back, I'm not real sure. If the EFI system is fairly basic (open loop) then it won't
support an oxygen sensor anyway.
I probably won't make the Gold Coast show, but I might. I'm not sure. I am flying to Townsville for 2 weeks the day after, then going to
Fraser the day after I get back. So I might be busy packing for Townsville and/or fraser.
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s1fter
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 08:16 PM |
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Just a quick note to say that the Heated Oxygen sensors tend to be 4 wire type, normally 2 grey one black and one white.
I also used 8mm tube (Bundy) it had no seems and also has a zinc coating to prevent rust, for my feed and return pipes, and I also put it down the
left had side of the tunnel and mounted it to the tunnel with Wurth clips that are made from stainless and have a rubber section where they hold the
tube so they don't rub though.
Just check that the seat does not foul the pipes as it can get close in some places.
You are doing some real good research it's an interesting read.
I was also told that you can buy from MicroTech the injector bosses to weld into the old manifold so you can mount the injectors easily..... Im sure
it was MicroTech?????
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 09:23 PM |
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I think in Australia you'd probably have legal issues running the fuel line through the cabin. At least that is the impression I got and is why I
ran mine through the tunnel. :thumb
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ratty 63
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| posted on November 11th, 2003 at 10:19 AM |
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Hmmm... good point Wes, this is what I was concerned about. I will ask the necessary people (engineer) and see what they have to say about the fuel
line issue.
Whist I am on this subject, is there any reason that I couldn't mount the surge tank up the back (beside the gearbox)? Due to the fact that it
will be fed by a LP pump (gravity feeding not an issue), this would mean that I would only have to fit a smaller size fuel return pipe to the front of
the car, and I could use the original fuel line as the feeder to the surge tank...
I have had a friend at work (who also works as an aluminium fabricator) offer to help with the surge tank - what size do you think it would need to be
as a minimum (is around 2 liters OK - it seams to be about the size everyone else is using...)
Thanks s1fter, you say that you ran two 8mm pipes down the tunnel? That would have been a tight fit around the seat fittings! Do you think that the
heated Oxygen Sensors will work OK where I suggested (at the 3 bolt flange between the extractor and the muffler?).
I'm going to have a look around for the Microtec injector bosses now.... will post the results.
R
Oh yeah, just (as I was typing this) got a reply from a re-chipping company here on the coast regarding re-chipping OEM computers to work with the VW
engines - summary: too hard (not really surprising )
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Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
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| posted on November 11th, 2003 at 10:46 AM |
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You can run the surge tank at the rear. One of the guys in the club with an EA82 turbo in his baja has the surge tank above the gearbox.
Yeah 2 liters is a good surge tank size.
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vw59
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Turbo Boy
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| posted on November 11th, 2003 at 11:22 AM |
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You will find the injector bosses at
http://www.injectionperfection.com.au located at Bankstown
airport Sydney ask for Mark.
They also sell lots and lots of their own injection gear but it is costly.
Hope this helps
Leigh
A 12 sec street car that is street driven!
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VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on November 11th, 2003 at 01:31 PM |
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Just about every JTW Commodore in the country has been tuned with Kalmaker. The Delco/Camira computer is a good idea. I installed a delco onto a Ford
a few years ago, so yes it can be transplanted. You'll need teh Camira dissy guts, too. If it helps, I have a Camira TB, pressure reg, and
injectors at home I can sell for beer money. I got them off a wreck about 10 years ago.... to install on my Beetle...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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s1fter
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
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| posted on November 12th, 2003 at 07:29 PM |
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I think that is the best place to the oxy sensor as you also get the average of each cylinder and it is surprisingly the hottest part of the exhaust
Im told. Did you get a price on the injector bosses??
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Doug Sweetman
Veteran Volks Folk
Nil Bastardo Carborundum
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| posted on November 13th, 2003 at 10:17 AM |
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the screw in ones from Injection Perfection are $47 each. You need to use hose tail injectors with them too.
Would be cheaper to buy twin port end castings with injector bosses cast and machined in from CB performance - $119 US the pair, have a look on their
web site.
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VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on November 13th, 2003 at 10:32 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Doug Sweetman
the screw in ones from Injection Perfection are $47 each. You need to use hose tail injectors with them too.
Would be cheaper to buy twin port end castings with injector bosses cast and machined in from CB performance - $119 US the pair, have a look on their
web site.
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Would they flow enough air for a healthy street engine?
Pay your debts, CxxT
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