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posted on November 14th, 2003 at 10:20 AM
They flow more than the standard, factory original steel beetle twin port injection ends, and I know of a bloke in the US using the standard ones (I
think) on a turbo daily driver that runs 12's.
My opinion - should be fine, but twin weber patter throttle bodies would be better ! (also approx $1500 for manifolds, throttle bodies and linkages !)
mdh66
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posted on November 14th, 2003 at 07:24 PM
Have you looked at the Megasuirt DIY ECU?
I'm thinking of building one for my turbo buggy, if I ever finish it!
ratty 63
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posted on November 15th, 2003 at 11:02 AM
...no, haven't heard of that one...
Do you have a URL of the manufacturer or of a company that is selling them? I would be interested to have a look at it...
R
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posted on November 17th, 2003 at 10:12 AM
Phew,
Sorry I havn't been as active with this thread over the past week, our club held its annual show on Sunday (yesterday) and I was one of the main
organisers - talk about running in circles! It was a great day - interested? Have a look at this link for some pics (go to around page 4 of the
thread):
Thanks guys for your links and encouragement - I will check out the links over the next day or two. I spoke to one of my fellow club members at the
show yesterday (he has an early T3 notch with a 2 litre motor and a home made fuel injection system - he has just finished it and tells me it is
working fine (although it is running a little lean at an idle). It consists of a Haltec (i think) computer, T3 manifold, Ford Falcon throttlebody and
Holden Commodore Injectors. He tells me that the computer is 'driven' off the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). It is an open system
(therefore no self tuning).
Also of interest with his system, is the fact that he is not using a surge tank setup - it is plumbed directly into the bottom of the tank. HOWEVER -
when I bought up the issue of fuel supply problems with him, he told me that he always carries a spare fuel can with him, and when it begins to surge
he just adds the spare fuel to the tank and goes off to the nearest servo to fill it up. It is worth noting that the only gauge that this car has
fitted is the speedo (no fuel gauge) so he doesn't know at what point it begins to surge. He is going to fit a fuel guage and let me know (whats
the bet that he is having trouble at below a third of a tank, if all the info that everyone here has given me is correct!). Interesting - but not
really what I was looking for.
Another friend (workmate actually) who is running a very fast (11 second quater mile) Datsun ute (drag car) has had some experience with a number of
EFI systems. He had some valuable info for me. He has fitted almost every one of the aftermarket injection computers to his car in the recent past
and had some good and bad things to say about each - we only spoke quickly about this subject, but I will be going over to have a look at his Ute (and
the injection set-up he is using) in the next week or so (the car is being tidied up, body wise, at the moment) so I will make some notes about what
he has to say about the different systems and will post the info here. He tells me that he has just found a web site that discusses the installation
and use of the Delco computers with the Calmaker software (not the official Calmaker site) and he tells me that it is really informative - but he
couldn't remember the URL... I will post this too once I get it.
I am starting to price a few of the similar EFI systems and will cotinue to do so over the next one to two weeks. Once I feel that the list is
reasonably complete I will also post this.
Also, I am investigating my options regarding intake manifold set-up. As I said at the start of this post- I want to make this as "bolt-on"
as possible, so I will look at using as many genuine parts as possible, without discounting the aftermarket stuff - I know that some of you have
already made some suggestions, I am always open to more info/suggestions... what would you recomend?
OK, this post is long enough now...:P ... and I have enough work to do for a few weeks ... better go.
R
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posted on November 18th, 2003 at 10:01 PM
This post will be a bit long so apologies in advance.
Hmm some good and interesting things in this thread so far.
Anyway, here goes:
The Delco option is ok and there are a myriad of 2 litre EFI camiras wrecked but i think you have discovered that by the time you add it all up the
cost is prohibitive to set up one of those old systems. They have very limited "closed loop" opperation and therefore are not able to
"self tune" unlike most latter day systems.
The actual issue of re-mapping them (delcos) is a pain and cannot be done easily "on the fly" which will be very important in an air cooled
application. This results in a "hit and miss" tuning effort where you have to predict the changes you need and then out you go and try
it,,,,,bugger, too rich... do it all again.....bugger it too lean now and I just burnt a valve..get thew picture?
Calmaker software is supposedly tricky to use and the chips can be easily buggered permanently.
Hardly worth the effort.
Your issues are firstly getting your crank trigger and cam angle position trigger happening.
You can do this in a number of ways, such as hall effect crank triggers and cam triggers but they are a bit messy and easy to disturb being mounted at
the crank pulley..
With a little ingenuity, you could easily fit the guts of the delco or for that matter nearly any Jap optical (or whatever) cam and crank angle
triggers into a fixed advance kraut dizzy.
Or you could fit simple generic hall effect triggers into a dizzy.
It all depends on how much work you want to do.
Next is your injector configuration and whether to run it in multi-point or bank fired mode.
Bank fired would be the simplest and would only need a single injector per side mounted into the manifold. You could even short cut it by running a
throttle body system in bank fire mode but this will only be marginally better than a well set up carby system.
A bit like those old Yank (the brands escape me now) poxy screwdriver tuned TB injection systems from many years ago with V8's in mind.
All that shit and money to spend and they were never much better than an olde fashionede 4 barrel anyway!
Multi-point sequential is the better option and requires the injectors to be mounted individually into spigots welded into the manifold right next to
the port inlets.
Just use some simple hosetail type injectors rated at around 40 Hp and aim then as close as possible to the stem of the valve where it becomes the
head of the valve.
If you dont want to fabricate the manifold injector spigots yourself there are really trick aftermarket items made in the style of a Weber IDA/DCNF
carb and will bolt right up with a Weber adaptor and carry the injectors. This will give you a quad throttle body arrangement!
This is getting right up there in the cost scale tho so fabricating the spigots and welding them to your own manifolds is the gun simple way.
I'm sure you can source these spigots already made to suit a variety of applications from the likes of Microtech or Wof EMS.
You then need to decide iffen you wish to use two throttle bodies or run the existing manifolds up to a common point and run one TB.
There are a multitude of TB's you can use off a million wrecked EFI cars that have a simple method of attaching. These usually should set you
back around 30 bucks each and will usually have a throttle position sensor fitted.
On the subject of TPS's, they are not really essential but if you have the option of running one then do so.
The simple 2 wire (sometimes 3) on-off switch type just tells the computer to switch from idle to run mode. No real benefit.
The best option is to use a variable resistance TPS, if the particular ECU supports a variable type. This introduces actual "throttle
position" into the ECU fuel and ignition calculations and assists in fine fuelling control on light and medium loads.
My personal view, unless you are going all out in the performance stakes, would be to make up some nice and neat tubing to bring the 2 manifolds
together and use a single say, around 45mm TB for simplicities sake. Running a huge TB offen a big six will make little difference in performance but
will result in large CFM for small throttle opening making the car very touchy and jerky on small throttle openings.
Running a single TB will also make the job for the ECU MAP sensor easy.
The map sensor simply reads manifold pressure and is the real heart of the EFI system.
Most aftermarket ecu's will have provisions for and run on a throttle position only mode, but this will then demand a variable resistance TPS.
This configuration results less tha ideal mapping and running the MAP sensor off just one inlet will result in wildly swinging (pulsing) manifold
pressure and associated shitty slow running and bad fuel economy.
A simple valance pipe between the the 2 manifolds uinderneath each TB should dampen these pulsations out ok tho if you want to go that way. This would
be a handy connection point for the idle up bypass valve (more on that later) and the fuel pressure regulator.
Dont knock yourself out with the size of the inlet tubing as the gas velocity in there is not nearly as important as if it were carying fuel and air
from a carby. Just use something bigger than what is absolutely necessary to ensure little airflow resistance after a single TB.
If you use twin TB's then with a bit of maths, you can calculate the most efficient length of inlet for your particular engine setup. The gains
here are very worthwhile. The same as tuning an exhaust headpipe length.
Your next issue with an air cooled engine is the usual coolant temp sensor will become a cylinder head sensor on a dak dak and you will need to drill
and tap the head to accept the thermistor. These generic thermistors are standard right across nearly all EFI cars apart from Mazda Rotors and a
couple of others but are usually screw in mount with a 1/4 BSP thread and need to insert into the head by quite a bit.
You may have to source a different type of thermistor configuration with a smaller thread and sensor head.
I would talk to someone like Microtech, Wolf EMS, EMS Injection, Haltech and so on best placement in the head of the sensor but usually close to the
spark plug and well away from the zorst port. You dont want to factor in zorst gas temp into the thing!
This head temp sensor is really important to enable to ECU to trim the fuel and ignition due to the fact that an air cooled engine is subject to a
greater degree of engine temp variation than a water-cooled engine and is essential for reliable and economical running over a wide range of engine
temps and for good warmup running.
You should also fit an air temp sensor in front of the TB. This is exactly the same thermistor as the head temp sensor and is used for air density
compensation.
On a hot day, with a given fuel and ignition map set for a moderate temp day, the thing will run rich and on the same tune will run lean on a very
cold night. Air density is not essential but very useful for getting good economy and performance out of your ride at all conditions. Particularly to
prevent leanout and detonation at very cold inlet temps if the maps are set for more moderate air temps.
I would simply stick with any Australian aftermarket EFI systems such as above.
Most all of them are set up/mapped with either a handpeice or a laptop with some simple software, or both.
I use both Microtech MT8 Sequential which is fuel and ignition on my Econovan fitted with a Nissan FJ20DET turbo and I also use EMS Ti4
fuel/ignition.
The MT8 also has provisions for mutliple coil triggers and this is the gun option enabling you to do away with using the dizzy
to"distribute" the spark. Just fill the plug lead terminals with epoxy and machine them off for a nice cheap smooth cover. Spin up a
polished alloy job if that gives you a stiffy, whatever.
Really, Just a pair of twin tower coils, triggered by 2 Bosch 008 triggers (or equivalent) with 2 plugs firing together or for the ultimate wank, 4
Bosch 008 triggers and 4 seperate coils!
This is overkill but looks the part if wank factor is important to you!!!
I just bought the second hand EMS system complete with loom, relays, temp sensors, hand peice (programmer) ready programmed wit 4 different maps as a
turnkey system for my wifes Pulsar Turbo ET for 650 bucks complete.
My EMS system does not have provisions for multiple coils like the MT8 but this is not an issue on wifeys stock boost car.
Both of these systems do not run in "Closed Loop" mode.
Closed loop is usually employed as a strategy for getting the very best emmissions and economy on light load running only.
If you insist on a closed loop running system that will self tune then you need to go wayyy upmarket to either an Autronic or EMS and others self
tuning systems.
Big money, expect to pay over 2 grand for this level of gear and dont expect to get it second hand.
Very desireable but so not necessary.
As for on-road tuning, fit at the extractor collector a 13/16 UNF nut and screw in a 4 wire EGO sensor.
The 4 wire option is best for a kraut as the collector is along way from the heads and it takes some time to heat the EGO sensor to over 300Deg.C to
make it read at all.
The 4 wire EGO has a heater element added that will bring up sensor temp within about 10 to 15 seconds and the 4 wire sensor has its own earth and so
does away with impedance problems between the EGO and the ECU/ego mixture display. You can get away with a cheaper 3 wire but why cut corners here.
Steer away from second hand EGO's tho. EGO's have a finite life and are usually specified to be changed at around 65,000K's. They are
prone to erratic and slow reacting readings when they are giving up.
The final touches to the system is a cold run idle up bypass valve.
There are numerous strategies to employ here from the sublime to the ridiculous but I use on both cars a simple Bi-metal air valve found on a zillion
80's jap 4's.
These little ditties cave a disk valve controlled by a bi-metallic spring and the colder they get the more they open. They are mounted onto the block
under the inlet manifold somewhere out of cold air flow simply bypass air from one side of the throttle body to the other.
They also employ a heater element that is powered off the ignition switch and this heater heats the bimetal spring and the valve progressively over
time, covers the port. They are also influenced by the temp of the block as well. This valve would have to plumb under each TB in a dual TB setup
tho.
There are also proportional stepper motors, simple switched air bleed valves and various other goodies but with careful adjustment the bi-metal air
bypass valve can be made to work just fine.
My FJ20DET runs at 950 RPM red hot and 1000 rpm in a hard frost at minus 2 deg. on first crank up! BrilliantT
I think I have covered most of it here (at last)!
After successfully setting up one of these simple systems you will wonder why you, or anybody else for that matter, would ever bother with a carby!
You can then use a simple EGO LED display available from Jaycar for about 15 bucks. These things take about 10 minutes to build and are well worth the
effort.
Why hire some old, unknown, slow reacting tailpipe EGO thing when you can have your very own high quality EGO mixture guage.
2 blokes can set the mixtures with ease out on the road via the real time mixture readings and the handpeice or laptop...too easy.
There are plenty of S/H Wolf 3D, EMS, Microtech and others systems kicking about if you are prepared to look hard.
Of course, all this presumes that you already have a suitable EFI fuel (fool) system set up.
I hope that helps.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
1303Steve
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posted on November 18th, 2003 at 10:39 PM
Hi
Very intresting post tassupervee.
Maybe some answers, the 2.6 Magna EFI dizzy has 2 seperate hall effect sensors, 1 is TDC and the other piston position, so these work well the
Autrinic system Im using and they can be easily fitted too type 1 engines
Use the recommended system coolant temp sender in the sump, the oil will run much cooler than the coolant but most good systems can cope with this.
Leigh on these forums can tell you about duals V single but basicaly when your dual go out of sync, so does your hp, the small power drop between the
dual & singles make the single look good. I reckon the Mexican EFI system would be the way to go.
1302Steve
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posted on November 19th, 2003 at 02:55 PM
Nice post, my comments below...
Quote:
Originally
posted by tassupervee
Next is your injector configuration and whether to run it in multi-point or bank fired mode.
Bank fired would be the simplest and would only need a single injector per side mounted into the manifold. You could even short cut it by running a
throttle body system in bank fire mode but this will only be marginally better than a well set up carby system.
I'm used to it being called batch fired, but I know what you mean. My g/f's bubble is single point EFI, I call it an electronic carby.
Quote:
...usually have a
throttle position sensor fitted. On the subject of TPS's, they are not really essential but if you have the option of running one then do so. The
simple 2 wire (sometimes 3) on-off switch type just tells the computer to switch from idle to run mode. No real benefit. The best option is to use a
variable resistance TPS, if the particular ECU supports a variable type. This introduces actual "throttle position" into the ECU fuel and
ignition calculations and assists in fine fuelling control on light and medium loads.
My V6 has a variable position TPS with 4 wires. You said the the idle / open throttle switch isn't any real benefit, well I think it is. It is
used to let the engine run an entirely different map at idle. That lowers emissions / fuel consumption and keeps the engine cooler. It is also used to
trigger the off-throttle coasting injector cut. This essentially lets the computer cut the fuel to the motor when you are coasting down hills. This
helps economy, improves engine braking and also stops popping out of the exhaust.
Quote:
Running a huge TB
offen a big six will make little difference in performance but will result in large CFM for small throttle opening making the car very touchy and
jerky on small throttle openings.
Many throttle bodies has a special cam type linkage on the side that opens the butterfly slow at first and then progressively faster. Using one of
them will help reduce the jerkiness problem.
Quote:
The map sensor
simply reads manifold pressure and is the real heart of the EFI system.
turbo boys are more familiar with the map sensor, but probably more common is the VAF sensor. They are both air flow sensors used to tell the ECU how
much air is coming in. MAP is as taz says, manifold air pressure sensor. By checking the pressure it can figure how much air is coming in. MAP's
are good because they offer 0 restriction to air flow.
VAF is a volume air flow sensor. Their are hot wire, flap type, plunger and other types out there. The flap and plunger types can be restrictive. The
hot wire isn't so bad. The flap / plunger type offer very accurate readings compared to map or hot wire sensors, and will give you better low
speed running of the engine.
Quote:
You can then use a
simple EGO LED display available from Jaycar for about 15 bucks. These things take about 10 minutes to build and are well worth the effort.
Why hire some old, unknown, slow reacting tailpipe EGO thing when you can have your very own high quality EGO mixture guage.
The problem with the jaycar kit is you need a "slow reacting tailpipe EGO thing" to tune the jaycar kit any get any kind of accurate
readings. The jaycar kit states this in the instructions. You need to compare it to the analyzer and adjust the jaycar kit until it gives you the same
reading. And the analyzer will always be more accurate.
It has a more complex sensor that reads accurately between the rich and lean conditions. EGO or O2 sensors (lambda sensors) as used in the Jaycar kit
are not as complex, and are almost on/off style switches. They say it's either running rich or running lean with not a lot in between.
You can get wide band lambda sensors that give a progressive read out of the air fuel ratio, but most people and cars just use the standard on/off
style lambda sensor. A rare few cars like a lean burn version of honda's vtec used a wide band sensor, the sensors are made by a company by the
name of NTK. They are a 5-wire o2 sensor. They can be expensive, ranging from about $300 for a honda one if your lucky, to insane prices over $1000.
Some of the EFI links posted cover alot of this stuff, I will put them in here if they aren't already.
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posted on November 19th, 2003 at 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally
posted by tassupervee
This post will be a bit long so apologies in advance.
Hmm some good and interesting things in this thread so far.
Anyway, here goes:
The Delco option is ok and there are a myriad of 2 litre EFI camiras wrecked but i think you have discovered that by the time you add it all up the
cost is prohibitive to set up one of those old systems. They have very limited "closed loop" opperation and therefore are not able to
"self tune" unlike most latter day systems.
The actual issue of re-mapping them (delcos) is a pain and cannot be done easily "on the fly"
WRONG
Your opinion/info is almost a decade out of date.
Delcos programmed with the Kalmaker software is the most popular system on Australian roads today. There are literally thousands of Commodores and
other cars transplanted with delcos/kalmaker. The Delco used in Commodores has reasonably sophisticated ST and LT 'learn' strategies etc etc
(from 1994) and all since 1988 have used a closed-loop system. Okay, not as smart as the latest stuff, but entirely adequate for a VW's needs!
Pay your debts, CxxT
tassupervee
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posted on November 19th, 2003 at 11:31 PM
Oh yes dude absolutely agreed, Delco entirely adequate and tuneable for sure but when talking a simple and easy to use system that a dude can set up
himself with at least some mechanical nous and a handpeice armed with exhaust gas oxygen readings as this guys wants to they (delco and the like) are
not really that user friendly. When you want to make a minor mixture change at a particular RPM or load point, with say, a Microtech, Wolf, EMS you
just pull out the handpeice and press some buttons and refer to your EGO's. Too easy!
I'm not sure that the Delcos you mention are quite so user friendly.
Most of my post was concerning affordable, simple to use and set up aftermarket stuff that nearly any dude with some intelligence and patience can fit
and configure himself.
I make pretty much no mention of OEM factory stuff and i will not go there.
Actually, MAF (Mass Air Flow). But who's bothering.
Very few, if any, aftermarket EFI ECU manufacturers bother with MAF sensors.
Particularly the vane types that are very difficult to calibrate to a particular application, suffer from vibration damage.
Another forum I subscribe to for Pulsar turbos (vane type MAF), thi issue of resistance from the vane has been well discussed and to that end the MAF
was actually flow tested with surprisingly good results. At first glance they appear rather restrictive but in practise are not as bad as they
appear.
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensing is not peculiar to or any more aimed at turbo men than atmo men and works just as well in either
application.
Wild fluctuations in manifold pressure are only an issue when using extreme camshaft overlaps, single cylinder map sensing or on rotors where very low
and/or pulsing idling manifold pressures are common.
The simple and effective workaround here is to configure the ECU to run off the variable TPS untill manifold vacuums are sufficient to do the job
correctly.
This is a usual parameter to change in most aftermarket ECU's.
Speaking of TPS's I have the benefit with my Microtech of having the option of switching to idle maps and fuel cuts on over run and such and i
can tell you that the results you get are hardly worth crowing about unless popping in the zorst bothers you. This can be, to a certain extent, tuned
out as well. I was unable to note any real decrease in fuel consumption or temp variations using over run fuel cut. In practise the idle maps are
close enough to the running maps as to not really worry about.
I do advise the use of variable resistance TPS tho. Very worthwhile gains.
Someone mentiond that the temp sensor fitted to the sump reading oil temp.
This tends to result in excessively rich warmup running untill the oil heats to preset temps. Also, the engine can be for all intents and purposes
stone cold but the oil can have significant heat there which will result in shitty cold running untill the rest of the engine "catches up"
in heat with the oil. The ECU is fooled into thinking the engine is hotter than it actually is.
It is of fairly minor importance many dudes can just drive around but why bother with EFI if many of the advantages, such as smooth and drama free
warmup running and ability to cope easily with wild variations in engine and ambient temps and such are not fully exploited.
The oil doesn't necessarily heat or cool at the same rate the rest of the engines does so, altho it can be compensated for, oil temp does not
ideally represent the running temp of the engine during warmup thats all.
Wes
I dont know where you get your info on EGO sensors but narrow band EGO sensors are nowhere "near a switch"???
Just the same as a wide band EGO ,they are a simple and virtually immediate proportional voltage generator device dependant on heat and the oxygen
content in the exhaust, hence Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor and the Jaycar, or for that matter, any low voltage expanded scale volt meter, even an
expanded scale multimeter, works just fine that full scales between Ov & 1 (point something) volts will serve the pupose.
The main issue between wide and narrow band is the actual scale or width of signal (mixtures) they will actually accurately deal with.
This is often the issue with turbo applications demanding wide band sensors as narrow band EGO's often dont read successfully at lower (rich)
readings, such as about 10.8 to 11 that really high po turbo setups often demand in an attempt to prevent grenading of these engines.
Both my FJ20DET and Pulsar E15 ET turbos run on EGO's of around 11.5 to 11.8 on heavy load and readings are pretty much the same when the things
were dynoed using one of those tailpipe probes.
An atmo engine running those low EGO readings will be using waaayy much fuel and loosing power.
For an atmo dak dak, a simple 2 wire 65 dollar EGO sensor out of anything will work as well as the million dollar jobs you are talking about. You are
after EGO's of around 12.5 to 13 for maximum performance and up to 15 on very light throttle cruise.
Speaking of which, 4 wire wide band EGO's start at around 200 dollars if you are prepared to hunt around.
Petroject will touch you up about 280 bucks retail for the same wide band item. You dont need to spend huge money even on a wide band EGO.
The issue of calibrating one of these is a doddle with a simple job of piggybacking one onto a later model EFI car EGO send when idling, fully warmed
up in closed loop mode and simply setting the trimpot so the ocillations up and down the scale, matching the ocillations of fuel mixtures when running
in closed loop run approximately in the middle of the led scale. The adjustment is fairly arbitrary and has little effect other than a fine trim.
These little guages are as fast reacting that any tailpipe probe when the EGO sensor is placed as close as possible to the ports. Unfortunately, this
usually means in the extractor collectors but this is usually fine enough altho operation of the EGO is delayed considerably when cold if there is no
preheater element.
That is why i reccommend fitting a 4 wire preheated EGO.
Not everyone has access to a portable tailpipe probe but everyone has access to a simple EGO sensor and display.
I use these simple strategies for tuning on both my turbo engines where any leanout issues results in nasty detonation with absolute confidence as
well as many others do.
Have fun dudes
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
lugnuts
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posted on November 20th, 2003 at 01:55 AM
Im getting about 30% of all this technical twaddle AND LOVING IT,keep it going and remember BE NICE,
Baja Wes
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posted on November 20th, 2003 at 07:20 AM
MAF and VAF are basically the same thing, just a personal preference on what you call it. The meter actually measures air flow volumetrically, and
then if you measure the air temp as well you can get the mass flow. So I think volume air flow is more correct. My workshop manual calls mine a
VAF.
and a narrow band o2 sensor looks like this;
Trust me, the narrow band between lambda of 0.98 and 1.02 ain't much in the air fuel ratio scale. some are better than others but chances are you
won't know which you have.
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posted on November 20th, 2003 at 01:28 PM
Yeah dude, whatever.
My EGO guage and the direct real time EGO reading on my Microtech hand peice pretty much agree with each other regardless of the quality of the device
I have used.
The EGO sensor in use now is a known condition3 wire device with an external earth point added.
Yes there certainly are better quality ones than others but the original 1 wire, another 1 wire (possibly lead poisoned) and the current 3 wire job
agree with each other sufficiently for me not to be concerned in the slightest.
You must agree that a turbo application will exploit any deficiencies in the setup usually in a glaring fashion and I have, nor anybody else i know
that use 2 bob sensors have had any trouble at all.
Ya just gotta know the setups limitations!!! LOL
If care is taken with these thingoes then as good as a result can be gotten with just a little time and zero money burnt on dyno's
Typically a couple of hours @ (often) 100 bucks an hour.
L8tr dude
E
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posted on November 20th, 2003 at 09:36 PM
efi
hey ross i would definateley pay the $500-00 and would want two of them as i am in the process of doing two different street beetles(one for moir one
for girlfriend. )would you easily be able two set it up for different motors ie one for say a 1680 and one for 2ltr. four carbies and manifolds will
cost me a small fortune and i think it will be easier to sort a single unit in each car. as they say twins are two much.
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posted on November 25th, 2003 at 10:33 AM
injector mounts
Hi all,
This thread has been a little quite lately....
I have been off researching the mechanical side of things - mainly the fitting of the injectors.
In keeping with the idea of using commonly available parts to keep the cost down I looked at the endcastings from a genuine injected beetle. Now I
have never seen the manifold end castings off a genuine system and I have just discovered that they look more like the Type 3 manifolds, with the pipe
closest to the fan housing bent and merged with the other pipe. They are longer (toward the centre - if this makes sense), but may be able to be cut
shorter.... not sure - I am waiting on some pics comming from the US - should be with me in around an hour or so...
Whilst I was looking at this, I also checked out the feasibility of having the standard twin port end castings modified to suit. It would require a
block to be welded to the casting, then machined to accept the injectors and some sort of clamping system - perhaps similar to the type 3 system. My
friend, who is an aluminium fabricator, is going to have a go at setting some end castings up for me, just as an experiment. He feels that it
won't be a problem... I will know in about a week or so. Does anyone see any problems?
I had a bit of a search of the forum and found the post mentioned earlier relating to the mexican injection - interesting. Looks like it would do the
job...
Whilst I am here, does anyone know if Commodore injectors will fit in an injected type 3 manifold? Just thought that these injectors would be easier
to find than, say, Kombi or Type 3 injectors.
Stay tuned....
R
PS: pics below for those who are not sure what I'm talking about...as far as I can see, would have to re-create the injector mounting block that
you can see on the type three manifold (on the left) in the twin port Beetle manifold (on the right).
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posted on November 26th, 2003 at 10:33 AM
manifold results
Ok, I have to admit - I joined another forum! This forum is discussing only fuel injection - everything from the genuine stuff to the latest and
greatest. Of course, lost of differing opinions but they all agreed with one thing:
Don't bother trying to track down a set of genuine manifold ends from a late '70's bug. Yeah, the are available without any problems,
however they are really small (read: restrictive). It was discovered by one of the guys I was discussing this option with, that if you trim down the
standard (carb) manifold it will fit the genuine FI manifold ends (the ends are much longer than the standard twin port ends).
One of the guys who responded to my posts has done some testing of the genuine intake manifold ends vs modified twin port ends and, although he made a
few other mods to the engine, produced a 19% increase in Hp.:o Now he changed the rockers from standard to 1:1.4 ratio rockers and changed air
filters to be less restrictive, and the whole lot was coupled to an old k-jetronic system (no throttle body sensor etc). Still an 19% increase is
huge! I can post the site URL if anyone is interested. (He actually ran the test starting with a set of dual Kadrons and ending with the K-jetronic
FI system using cast manifold ends - increasing the engines overall output by a massive 80%!!!!!:o:o:o Very interesting read.)
OK, so I am absoloutly sold on the idea of EFI, now all I have to do is make a decision relating to the brand and type of Computer and away we
go......
(Who am I kidding, it's not going to be that easy, but you have to start somewhere!:P )
Another question, I have noticed that the EFI systems come in both sequential injector fire and batch fire. Most of the basic system seam to be
batch fired. What advantages are there to upgrading t sequential firing? Is it worth paying the extra for a street/off-road car? I know that the
genuine systems fitted to the air cooled VW's is batch fired and (when set up and maintained correctly) works well.
Also, there is some discussion regarding the location of the engine temp sender. Some say that the oil temp is a good indication, whilst others say
that the temp sender should be fitted to the head. I have the option to do either, I have an oil temp sender in the case already and the heads have
the threaded fitting to suit a sender. I personally feel that the heads would respond faster (in temprature change) to changes in load - perhaps even
too fast? Is this a problem? Some people have even said that it makes no real difference. What are your thoughts?
R
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posted on December 1st, 2003 at 09:43 PM
Dude
Ultimately, the system will run well enough without any temp senders fitted at all as was originally the case with my Microtech fitted to the FJ20det
Nissan. Most aftermarket ecu's will run happily enough on MAP sense alone, Throttle position sensors are not necessary either but are desireable,
particularly if they are of the resistive type.
The issue is mostly with warmup and perhaps red hot running where you may like to trim mixtures a bit to compensate for lost air density.
The car will simply be more difficult to start from dead cold as there is no accellerator pump to squirt in raw fuel to help cold start when the
engine is not running, only cranking enrichment, and will run like a carby car without a choke untill it warms up enough.
This is sort of defeating the purpose of EFI really.
The temp sense in the oil is a bit dodgey as the ECU will consider the engine cold untill the oil warms unless you set the fuel points at very low
temps and this is a much slower warming process than head temp.
It will result in rather rich running and excessive fuel consumption untill the oil reaches the temp points set in the ECU fuel map to compensate for
cold running.
You could concievably have the engine completely hot but the oil just warm or have the oil warm but the rest of the engine stone cold and it will run
like a pig for a while.
Head temp does not lie to the ECU nearly as much. If anything, the head temp may climb a bit too fast but this would be a much better bet than relying
on relatively slow reacting oil temp. Whats important is to keep the sensor as far away from the exhaust port as practical. This area of the head will
get hottest, fastest, fooling the ECU into believeing the engine is warmer than it really is.
The temp probe in most aftermarket EFI systems usually goes into the water just underneath the thermostat and uses water temp to indicate to the ECU
what the engine is actually doing.
Some systems use a fast reacting temp. sensor in the inlet to compensate for air density.
These sensors have holes machined into the sensor end to expose the thermistor to direct airflow and are used to trim mixtures for density changes
proportional to temp changes.
This type of sensor is not really necessary again, but desireable nonetheless, particularly on turbo applications where air density changes are
frequent and usually gross.
Oil is not really a good indicator of operating temp of the engine.
There you go dude.
E
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posted on December 1st, 2003 at 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally
posted by tassupervee
The temp sense in the oil is a bit dodgey as the ECU will consider the engine cold untill the oil warms unless you set the fuel points at very low
temps and this is a much slower warming process than head temp.
E
Hi
Were all here to learn, have you ever used a coolant temp sensor in oil in this situation? I have personal experience with this with an Autronic SMC
in Leigh’s turbo bug, that’s why I suggested it. He was using the factory Kombi EFI head temp sender, this did not interface with the Autronic very
well. Most aftermarket ECUs can be setup to run a coolant temp sensor in this manner, the Camira sender that the Autronic uses will read from ambient
temperatures and up, Leigh has all his enrichment over buy about 70 Celsius and does not experience any of the faults that you suggested might occur.
I think that if you could get an aftermarket ECU to run using head temp it would experience to wide a fluctuation, the oil temp on the other hand
would more closely follow the characteristics of coolant, albeit at a lower temperature and after all aren’t these aftermarket ECUs are all setup to
cater for water-cooled motors, perhaps factory aircooled ECUs could use head temp as an input but we are not talking about factory aircooled ECUs are
we.
1302Steve
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posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 12:05 PM
I have just spoken to a number of Ppl about a number of topics whilst I was out and about today.
Firstly, almost everyone I spoke to about the temp sender location, and that had any knowledge of VW's feel that the sender should be in the oil.
They all feel that the oil would follow the charastics of the coolant of a water cooled motor, albeit a little slower to react (perhaps). As most of
the Fuel injection computers can be set to 'react' at different tempratures, this shouldn't be a problem... interestingly, one of the
emails I have recieved from one of the EFI system manufacturers suggested that I should use a head temp sensor...hmmm.
The other thing that came up is more than likely due to my limited knowledge (although it is improving with every day and every post!). I was of the
understanding that the Oxygen sensor (in the exhaust) 'told' the computer if the engine is running too rich or too lean. Someone I spoke to
this morning (a mechanic) an he tells me that the oxygen sensor only monitors the condition of the catalytic converter and that it would not be
required in my system (no cat!). He tells me that another sensor is used to inform the computer of fuel mixture. He couldn't recall what this
sensor was called (doesn't work on EFI all that much), but did try to show me a diagram in a workshop manual of the sensor loaction - and was
unable to. Now, I am about to go back and re-read the posts so far, but can anyone confirm if this is correct? What function does the Oxygen sensor
have, and if there is another sensor, what is it called?
Sorry if this has already been answered, but I am now really confused
R
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posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 01:34 PM
Quote:
He was using the factory Kombi EFI head temp sender, this did not interface with the Autronic very well.
Is the Kombi sensor a thermocouple or a thermistor?
Is it placed close to the exhaust outlet?
Quote:
the oil temp on the other hand would more closely follow the characteristics of coolant
Does it?
Well, the rationale for not using oil temp as an indicator is here:
The warmup issue with a cold engine are the usually result of fuel condensation in the inlets and ports, by using CHT, the ecu can fuel according to
the temps that directly influence cold running issues. Altho oil temps are related to engine temps to a certain extent, they have little influence on
the temps of the inlet and port areas so are not indicative of what is actually going on with the engine warmup wise.
Water is circulated around the combustion chambers and directly adjacent to exhaust ports in a water cooled engine and remove a lot of heat away from
these local areas, which after circulation, applies heat to cold areas inside the manifold where fuel condensation and seperation occur, causing ratty
running when cold. Witness the ratty cold running and slow warmup of a Veedub in winter when the heat riser is disconnected off the bottom of a stock
inlet manifold. They will run fine on open throttles but tend to run crappy at low revs and throttle openings. I can chase idle mixtures all day with
the F-Vee as we have the manifold stripped of the heat riser pipe and aluminium cuff holding it.
So, The oil can be cold but the engine at operating temp (for the purposes of cold running issues) so with the temp sense in the oil the ecu will
continue to overfuel resulting in the very least of lesser fuel economy and reduced power.
The engine can be cold but the oil can still be quite warm resulting in hesitation and rougher running fotr a bit of time 'till things
stabilise.
In an aircooled sense, the better strategy is to monitor head temp for the simple purposes of warmup running which is the area the temp sensor has the
most influence on.
I never said oil temp will not work, I said it is not the best choice.
Quote:
Leigh has all his enrichment over buy about 70 Celsius
Yep fair enough, this is the case with my FJ20DET. I have tried loosing warmup enrichment at lower temps than this in an attempt to improve economy
and was rewarded with hesitation and stalling/rough running out on idle with the idle and load maps showing good EGO's at normal operating temps.
My warmup enrichment cut out set points are up into mid 70's Deg C.
Ok then, using my F-Vee as an example, if I race in cooler weather at Symmons Plains my oil temp will not get over 65 degrees C. but my CHT
(undersparkplug) is well up at its maximum (300+ odd deg F)
Using oil temp as a reference, my engine would still be running on cold start enrichment at the end of the race even tho it has completed 7 laps at
pretty much wide open throttle and was, for all intents and purposes, fully warmed up after the roll up lap as far as warmup enrichment was
concerned.
Simply the engine is red hot but the oil is cool so the ECU thinks the actual engine is cool and enriches it based on what it sees, which is not
correct.
This will result in very low EGO readings, increased fuel consumption and significant loss of horsepower. Sure, it will run smooth enough but if you
have the faiclities to trim and acheive absolutely best running over a wide range of conditions then why not exploit them? Otherwise a reasonable
el-cheapo twin carb setup will work almost as well and be a whole lot less money, time and bother.
Quote:
I think that if you could get an aftermarket ECU to run using head temp it would experience to wide a fluctuation
Not really, the head casting is a fair chunk of aluminium and temp flutuatios would be relatively slow, particularly on warmup where the issue of a
temp sensor is relevent. Above the readings necessary to invoke cold enrichment, temp flutuations are pretty much irrelevent.
Quote:
Leigh has all his enrichment over buy about 70 Celsius and does not experience any of the faults that you suggested might occur.
You guys have obviously gotten the setup pretty close in your turbo arrangement so the overenrichment during "oil" warmup is not so obvious
as rough running. What are your EGO readings during the oil warmup phase?
I dont know if ECU makers usually allow for CHT as a temp reference in run of the mill aftermarket ECU's without actually checking it out on both
my systems but since there are a plethora of systems suitable for air-cooled bikes available (EG: Wolf EMS) It could surely only be a minor software
revision.
L8tr
E
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posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 09:49 PM
Hi
Quote:
Is the Kombi sensor
a thermocouple or a thermistor?
Not sure.
Quote:
Is it placed close
to the exhaust outlet?
It was located in an existing boss in the head, the factory EFI Kombi sender was used in place of a tinware screw near the inlet manifold.
Quote:
the oil temp on the
other hand would more closely follow the characteristics of coolant Does it?
In Leigh’s case he used an output from the Autronic ECU to operate a cooling fan on his oil cooler, the oil cooler is located above the trans with no
direct airflow so it does warm fairly quickly.
As I mentioned in my previous post, aftermarket ECUs are not made to suit a 60 odd year old aircooled motor, so I think to make things simple the
coolant sender in the oil is a viable option as long as you can adjust your ECUs cold enrichment down to meet the lower temperature that the oil runs
at. I'm not sure what an aftermarket ECU would make of your example of CHT of 300+ deg F, but the ECU could make sense of your oil temp of 65 deg
C, say in your Vees case you make your normal oil (coolant) operating temperature at about 55 C, the heads etc should be up to operating temperature
so the need for enrichment would have passed. It must be a bit harder in Tassie where it gets a bit cooler.
I have driven cars with CHT gauges and have noticed a wide range of temperatures depending on driving conditions, that is what I based my comment on
regarding the use of a CHT sender for this purpose.
Quote:
You guys have
obviously gotten the setup pretty close in your turbo arrangement so the over enrichment during "oil" warmup is not so obvious as rough
running. What are your EGO readings during the oil warmup phase?
Leigh and I have both had to fool around to get the cold start enrichment right, after the cars were dynode, we don’t have an EGO so I cant tell you
our reading
Quote:
I don’t know if ECU
makers usually allow for CHT as a temp reference in run of the mill aftermarket ECU's without actually checking it out on both my systems but
since there are a plethora of systems suitable for air-cooled bikes available (EG: Wolf EMS) It could surely only be a minor software revision.
interesting, could make all of this debate irrelevant.
Ben, Leigh was running quads (2 duals) with Berg linkage and the drop in power was noticed as the fan housing distorted with temperature variations,
affecting sync and hp readings.
Cheap ECUs lose their appeal when you have to pay for lots of dyno time.
The Autronic has an Autotune facility, below is a sales blurb on it.
==========================================
Autotune ™ Feature
The Autotune ™ features available for the SMC and SM2 model ECU's.
Old models can be upgraded with a chip change and new software.
The Autotune ™ will tune the engine with no input from the operator. The closed loop air fuel ratio table is used as the target air fuel ratio table
for the Autotune software. This table is setup with the required air fuel ratios at various RPM and Load points.
An Autronic exhaust gas analyser or any other analyser that provides a 0 to 1 volt corrected output, is connected to the ECU O2 I/P, this is used as
the actual air fuel ratio input. As the engine is run through its various RPM and Load points the software will adjust the volumetric efficiency
numbers in the main fuel table to achieve the target air fuel ratio.
At no time do you need to touch the keyboard on the Laptop.
After the tuning is complete the analyser and 02 sensor is longer need. At any time after tuning is finished the values in the target closed loop
table can be changed, and the engine will automatically run the new air fuel ratio, providing you do not make a change to the volumetric efficiency of
the engine, e.g. fit a different camshaft, modify cylinder head etc...
If the engine is modified so the volumetric efficiency changes, then the analyser and Autotune ™ software will be required again to re-tune the
engine.
The Autotune ™ software is much faster then a good operator. It is not possible to manually tune as quick as the Autotune ™. A typical engine will
take less than 20 minutes to fully map on an engine dyno.
The accuracy of the Autotune ™ can be setup in the software from 0.5% to 5.0% accuracy. The default value is 2% accuracy; this is generally a lot more
accuracy then most tuners manual tune engines.
Overview
Autronic Autotune ™ software provides rapid hands-free tuning of Engine Air/Fuel mixtures. This automated operation frees the engine tuner, allowing
total concentration on safe engine/dyno operation. On road tuning of motor vehicles is even possible.
This software uses a complex combination of math, including statistics, trigonometry and fuzzy logic to intelligently adjust the fuel delivery tables.
Initial tuning is rapid usually occurring within 1 second. High precision can be achieved by allowing the Autotune ™ to operate for an extended time
at each engine operating point. The operator has control over the balance between tuning speed and accuracy. Accuracy is ultimately limited by the
accuracy of the attached Air/Fuel ratio measurement equipment.
The program provides visual indication of the tune status. Automatic and manual storage of tune status allows the user to monitor the tuning progress
even if undertaken in several sessions. Tuning usually proceeds 2 to 5 times faster than possible by manual means. Fuel savings of as much at 90% have
been reported. The considerable savings in engine life are obvious.
This program also has elaborate diagnostics facilities and allows simultaneous operation of the ECU internal data logger and external P.C data
logging.
Versions are now available that have live engine operating data graphs while tuning, and a live 3D graphical presentation of the tuning process.
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posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 09:18 AM
Id love to have a play with the autotune Autronic. A mate of mine has one fitted to his turbo ET Pulsar and is really pleased, as might well he be
given the high cost of those Autronic systems.
EMS have a new autotune system now and without actually checking, I suspect all the others will follow suit very soon and this feature should become
the norm rather than the exception in short time.
It would be economic suicide not to except on the very basic, 2 bob bottom line budget system.
I have my Microtech MT8 fittet to a Nissan FJ20DET in a Ford econovan.
When I first got the van there was no temp sense and the engine was running on the generic 4 cyl turbo map that came with the Microtech.
The thing ran ok but obviously was as rich as buggery everywhere and used copious wads of fuel.
I have inproved the fuel consumption from about 18 MPG to around 24 MPG and improved throttle response and all around driveability including cold
start and warmup woithout EVER having it on the dyno.
I simply fitted a good EGO sensor just after the turbo and the whole thing has been trimmed on the road using the ego readings.
Cruising egos hover around 13.8 to 14.5 Low power and low boost ego's around 2.8 to 13.5 and WOT and high boost ego's around 12.5 to
12.8.
The high boost ego's are a little lean but I have compensated here with about 6 degrees progressive boost igntion retard beginning at 4 psi and
finally at 8 psi to ward off detonation but keep more advance and reasonable economy off boost.
All this was done without the "benefit" of hideously expensive dyno time. Often over a hundred bucks an hour.
My point is that you cannot underestimate the value of a good quality EGO sensor and guage on the dash as far as tuning is concerned.
After all, thats what the dyno guys stuck up the tailpipe anyway!
Down here in southern Tas, I do have the benefit of lots of long and constant hills to exploit as a method of "strapping" the engine but the
same can be done with throttle braking in, perhaps third gear somewhere quiet.
EGO reaction times are almost instant when the EGO is mounted right up near the engine so adjustments can be made very quickly.
It is handy to have another dude in the car to help keep the car straight as maintaining engine RPM, vacuum or boost readings, brakes and monitoring
ego's and adjusting set points can be a bit dodgey all at the same time
Believe me , I have run all over the road doing this risky practise but the results I have gotten from my system are well worth the...ahhh,...
bother.
Your right, CHT readinmgs do flutuate widely but for the purposes of warmup enrichment, the temps there will only be relevent actually during warmup
and what happens after that is not considered by the ECU.
It is highly unlikely that the lower temp readings relevent to warmup would be seen under ordinary driving conditions.
Anyway, there you go dude.
L8tr
E
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posted on December 10th, 2003 at 01:12 PM
end casting design
Ok, I think I may have worked out why CB Performance have designed their endcastings with the injectors facing straight down. It could be that due to
a lack of clearance in the engine bay of a bug, the injectors, if mounted in the same position as a type 3, would have to be removed from the engine
to enable the engine to be removed from the car. With the injectors fitted in an upright position, they should be able to be left attached when the
engine is removed. Now I haven't tried this theory yet, as I am waiting for my modified end casting to be finsihed - I am having them machined
to match the type three fitting, so I hope that they will fit, even if they have to be fitted after the engine is fitted to the car...
Has anyone tried this before? Do they fit OK? Should be OK for me, its all going in a Baja, but owners of standard Bugs that are considering doing
the same mod may be intereseted to know...
Ross
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posted on December 15th, 2003 at 10:33 AM
Hi all,
During the weekend I had the chance to drive an early T3 notch belonging to one of my fellow club members, which has just been fitted with a 2.1 litre
engine. Amongst other modifications (IRS conversion, 6 to 12 volt upgrade, etc) this vehicle was fitted with a custom fuel injection system (ie: not a
factory system).
This system consisted of a throttle body from an EA Falcon, injectors from a VL Commodore, fuel pump from an FI Kombi, manifold from a FI type three
and a Haltec (I think) 'screwdriver tune' computer.
This car has been totally tuned by ear (no Dyno time) and as yet has not had the cold enrichment set up, so it runs a little rough whilst it comes up
to temprature... but when it is up to temprature it is a real experience to drive.
Now I realise that it is not a small engine, and it is fitted with a lightened flywheel (that caught me out a couple of times!) but the power output
was incredible - but more incredible was the ability of the engine to pull from idle in any gear smoothly. Especially good when you realise that this
car is running a 4.16:1 diff ratio on an otherwise stock standard gearbox. Unfortunatly this car is only fitted with a speedo (no other gauges) so I
don't know what sort of revs I was at when I changed from 2nd to 3rd, but it was below where I normally change when accelerating into traffic in
my '63 bug (40hp) - as I let the clutch out in third I had a quick look at the speedo and it was showing 85km/h!!! YIKES! :o (60 zone too!)
The best part of this whole set-up was the incredible smoothness of the power (once warmed-up). It makes it the sort of car you could drive really
hard yourself, and then hand the keys to your Mum and know that it will behave itself!
I think that this was one of those inspiring moments....
R
PS: just spoke to my friend who is creating the injector mounts in my twin port end castings - he has finished one side and is most impressed with
how it turned out - should have it back by the end of the week - my Brother has donated me a worn, but running 1600 TP engine which I am planning on
using as a test bed for the injection. Now all I have t do is get my floorpan fitted up and the engine mounted and .....
R
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posted on December 15th, 2003 at 03:53 PM
EFI works well dont it!!:thumb
Even considering that particular system is a bit "agricultural" (all due respect to the dudes that set it up) the gains to be had cannot be
underestimated as you have glaringly discovered.
Your multi-point system will knock the socks off you when you get it set up and you will wonder why on earth you would ever think about setting up
twin carbies no matter what the brand or reputation.
There is nothing like doing a fuelling or ignition advance trim sitting at the lights!
Keep it happening dude and good luck!
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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posted on December 15th, 2003 at 10:36 PM
Hi
When I went from IDAs to injection the thing I noticed most was the smoothness at all times, you have a lot confidence that the car will drive without
a flatspot through an intersection without you needing to engage the clutch again to get out of the way of the truck bearing down you.
1302Steve
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posted on December 17th, 2003 at 06:08 PM
Ratty
When you get your twinport castings/ manifolds back can you post a pic or 5, I'd be really keen to see what you did in the end, and how you get
on with the clearance in the engine bay.
S1fter got his panel beater to alter the bodywork either side of the engine to fit his stuff in nicely.
Cheers
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
ratty 63
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posted on December 19th, 2003 at 10:20 AM
No Worries! Be happy to - I am actually in the process of making some
fairly extensive changes to my web site to enable me to post a heap of step by step pics as the build-up continues. I'll let you know when it is
online.
The need to change the bodywork to make it all fit was what I was worried about. For my car, being a Baja, some mods to the bodywork will not be an issue, but I would prefer to build a system that could be put
into any vehicle without mods...perhaps I will have to re-design the injector mounts on the end castings in the future...I will hopefully know
tomorrow as I am hoping that the endcastings will be returned to me tonight. I will post pics ASAP
R
40hp, 6V and ...er... slowly making improvements
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice!
posted on November 17th, 2003 at 10:12 AM
).
