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 Black_math
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| posted on November 9th, 2003 at 09:34 PM |
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Rotary in a beetle
The 2nd in my seris of questions about rotarys in volkswagens, has anybody every seen a rotary in a beetle or heard anything about how well they would
perform?  just curious/ thinking bout it:P
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RSI
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| posted on November 9th, 2003 at 09:40 PM |
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check out davids 66 baja showcar , he's also got some photo's
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on November 9th, 2003 at 09:45 PM |
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My brother inlaw owns RX engineering in Newcastle, he had a stock 13b turbo in a Superbug, Steering was very light when boost came on 
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Stanley
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 06:26 AM |
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NOT AGAIN
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 10:11 AM |
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yes again, get used to it - its a logical conversion (once again, if you want a conversion that is. If its air cooled for you, then thats your right
!)
There is a gentleman in Perth with a 13B turbo in a late 60's beetle (pearl white, a fairly old conversion, maybe someone on this forum knows the
guy) that apparently does low 13's (which would make it the quickest street legal bug in WA)
They are a small light engine, with a great ability to make power. The turbos (12A and 13B) I think would be too hard to get registered. Dont believe
people who tell you they require heaps of maintenance or are unreliable - thats just hangovers from the early rotaries in the 70's - technology
has come a ways since then.
They are thirsty though.
There is a bloke on this forum who has had a number of Rotary Mazda's - he should be able to give you some better info.
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wacked1
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 10:56 AM |
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Hey dude at the Boris picnic day at Sydney there was a sweet bug with a rotary motor in it the guy was selling it for about $10,000 it was engineered
and apparently went really good. It was green in colour and had fushes on it.
:jesus |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on November 10th, 2003 at 11:33 AM |
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go to the links/archive post at the top of this subforum. Then go to rotary, and click on the link to Zenjoe's site. He was what you are looking
at doing.
Basically if your in QLD which I think you are, you will not get a turbo rotary legally approved in a beetle. Therefore you are stuck with 12A or 13B
naturally aspirated.
You would need a heavy superbug or something more than 870kg to get the 13B approved.
You would still need a heavy later standard beetle of about 800+kg to get the 12A approved.
There was a 13B turbo manx buggy at the FF&R Jamboree this year, it ran 12's but was illegally modified for sure.
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veedubman
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 12:32 AM |
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hey guys
i was just wondering
how much do you reckon the whole conversion would cost
ive been searching for days
and cant seem to find anything
either im a complete dropkick
or there arent any sites that have pricesall help will be greatly appreciated
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Mick058
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 06:26 AM |
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'Bugzla' had his rotary 68 bug up for sale - good price too! Check that out.
IT doesn't cost much to do the conversion - just time and trial and error. I had heating issues, they run hot - need to get the right radiator and
oil cooler in the right spots in the right size with the right thermostat
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Euro_67
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 07:49 AM |
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This might help explain what is required for the conversion.
http://www.geocities.com/zenjoe/vw.html
It is a US site, so check local regulations for legalities.
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Mick058
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 08:00 AM |
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Price wise i reacken 2-3k
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ttriebler
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 10:53 AM |
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I've had quite a number of Rotaries in my time (in Mazda Bodies) and I say it all depends on what you want to do with it and how much power you would
like to make.
Given today's technology, a fuel injected modern rotary engine is an excellent motor, very smooth power delivery and all the revs you could want. The
fuel injection takes care of easy starting, not running out of fuel at the top end, and smooth power. There is basically zero maintenance on them
except to change the oil regularly and make sure you run an oil cooler. The new generation of Apex seals fitted to rotary engines have a lot of
longevity.
The best transplant IMHO would be an EFI 13b Turbo, followed by a 12a EFI Turbo (would need aftermarket EFI computer) as these make nice torque, as
much power as you could want and run very quiet as the turbos take a lot of energy out of the exhaust.
However, given the power/weight restrictions of the ADR/RTA Nazis, it's unlikely that you could do this conversion legally.
So the next best thing is to do a 13b Extend port EFI motor. This will still idle well, give good fuel economy and make around 150kw which should be
plenty in a beetle. Using 2 decent mufflers will keep the noise to an acceptable level. I would stay away from bridge ports and peripheral ports as
they are more like having a BIG cam and an OBSCENE cam in a normal engine - poor idle, loss of low down torque, and then a massive hit at the top end
of the rev range.
If you wanted a bit more and could get it through the authorities, have a look into fitting a triple rotor 20B with an extend port and EFI. Thos
things have plenty of mumbo and of course lots of useable torque low in the rev range.
All of this takes time and money to do properly though, so make sure you set aside funds for uprated gearbox, efi pumps and filters, lift pump, EFI
hoses and return hoses, and a good exhaust system.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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pete wood
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 03:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Mick058
Price wise i reacken 2-3k
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and keep counting. anything brought in from OS is routinely rebuilt by the decent rotary workshops these days. and a decent rebuild is not cheap from
what I hear. then you need to put a good gearbox behind it...  I'd suggest about the cost of a WRX conversion plus the cost of the motor rebuild.
if you were really serious about putting one in a dub, I'd buy a late type 3 (cheap and legal) and put a 13b turbo in it. the fella in QLD with the
20b kombi has one for his missus apparently. I reckon you'd be nuts to use one without the turbo. the turbo makes a rotary far more usable.
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Mick058
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 04:03 PM |
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ha, like anything PEte, depends how fast and how well. I did it under 2k, i was 17 and poor. IT worked, wasn't the best, but it did work.
Did all the work myself and bought second stuff, got it rebuilt, re-cord etc.
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13BVW
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 04:59 PM |
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I have a 13bt in my car (the one Wes is talking about earlier) it was built OS and was a personal import that is how it is registered, its been on the
road with a rotary for 20 years this year and with me behind the wheel for the last 12.
As for reliability mine has had a hard life it is now 23 years old and still going strong.
As for fuel economy with general cruising mine gets better econ then my old 1835(EFI helps) but it does like a drink when the pedal is to the
floor.
They are such a compact engine that they fit beautifully and very smooth and revvy.
I have another rotary powered car and it cost 3k to get the engine rebuilt with new parts (seals, oil control rings rotors etc)
The gearbox is worst bit(they break with abuse) but you will get that even with a subaru or vw motor putting out the same power.
Do it, I hated rotary's initially due to hearing of all the myths but am now glad I took the plunge 
13BVW 11.80@114mph
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Boozo
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 08:05 PM |
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woot, yay for 2 rats in a tin can. love the noise. non turbo would be more than enough for a street car. ive been thinking about doing this when and
if i ever kill my 1916.
i was thinking 13b injected, but in light of the RTA restrictions the 12a might be an easier and most painfree option here in QLD.
Ive seen the mentioned yellow max at jambos for years, love it, its so quiet smooth and fast, beautiful
[size=4] '59 or Kombi?....feeling confused [/size]
'59 bug
'68 bug
'82 import T3 BUS. aircooled
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veedubman
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| posted on January 20th, 2009 at 10:32 PM |
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mmm yea i was thinking either the 12a or the 13b
but i was also thinking maybe an EJ20
but id need a new gearbox to aye |
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pete wood
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| posted on January 24th, 2009 at 05:19 PM |
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a stock lbug box will cope with a non turbo EJ20. I'd have thought it would also be ok behind a 12a or 13b atmo motor. it's the torque of the turbo
engines that kills them.
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newghia
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| posted on January 24th, 2009 at 05:32 PM |
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Just do it !!!
Built my first car, a beetle, for a rotary in the late 80's / early 90's
louvered the bonnet in prep for the radiator etc,
sanded the body by hand for too many weekends,
sadly never got there (with the engine )........still regret selling & not finishing that car
Step up to get out !!!
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 24th, 2009 at 08:28 PM |
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wow veedubman, you say you been searching for days... this thread is from 2003
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Joel
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| posted on January 25th, 2009 at 09:11 PM |
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my black bug had a stock DC type3 box that was fine for years with a 13B
no offense to the wankel lovers but i couldnt wait to get that engine out and an EJ in
unless ur a die hard rota fan EJs are a far more logical choice
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Euro_67
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| posted on January 26th, 2009 at 07:22 AM |
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Joel,
what was it about the rotary you disliked ? The EJ engines appear to be far more work to fit into a beetle than rotary due to size.
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Joel
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| posted on January 26th, 2009 at 10:19 AM |
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depends which EJ
NA sohc engines fit in with minimal effort and cutting
i agree with u that rotarys are a nice little compact engine
the only cutting to mine was the valance for the old fan hub clearance
but maybe ive never been exposed to a good rota but to me they are rediculously thirsty, not a smooth engine and noisy as no matter what u do to
them
but my main dislike is the way they disrupt the handling
i love pushing cars hard thro corners and ive found and many other too that as soon as u chuck in anything other than a horizontally opposed banger u
upset the center of gravity with a bug
got me buggerd how these guys running twin cam VW and toyota motors can still corner without stopping to grab 1st gear
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Joel
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| posted on January 26th, 2009 at 10:24 AM |
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i should also add that electrical wise i guess rotas are nice and simple to espeically if carb'd
that was the biggest hold up with my conversion was the amount of electrical bullshit involved with EJs
but to my way of thinking subis are a modern more refined engine smooth as, economical and cheap to get parts for
be that as it may my Lbug will always stay vw powered as its never been rusted, welded or in a prang so i dont have the heart to cut it up
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ian.mezz
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| posted on January 26th, 2009 at 10:32 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
i should also add that electrical wise i guess rotas are nice and simple to espeically if carb'd
that was the biggest hold up with my conversion was the amount of electrical bullshit involved with EJs
but to my way of thinking subis are a modern more refined engine smooth as, economical and cheap to get parts for
be that as it may my Lbug will always stay vw powered as its never been rusted, welded or in a prang so i dont have the heart to cut it up
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you wuss , you need to go to the dark side, the Subaru turbo is so much fun , the acceleration over 100Ks is scary
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Euro_67
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| posted on January 26th, 2009 at 11:56 AM |
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Funny ones recollection of things.
My first car was a Honey Brown Superbug. It leaked almost more oil than I could top it up with, and was just plain awful. Thankfully this didnt turn
me of VWs completely, but it came close. It did lead me to work part time at a local VW workshop, after the engine finally died.
My mate's firs car was a very tidy RX4 coupe, complete with factory 13B and 5 Speed. I went for a drive, and couldnt believe how smooth the engine
was, and how quickly it revved.
I have never driven a rotary engined beetle, so cant comment on the potential to change the handling characteristics.
A properly sorted rotary conversion offers a good power gain, with minimal body mods and plenty of room to spare. I think the handling could be an
issue, regardless of engine choice (Rotary or EJ) and would need sorting out to suit the final weight / distribution.
I remember the first Rotary engined Beetle I saw (the Penrose one I think, with suicide doors) driving into an indoor VW show at the old Enfield motor
auctions, and the noise and scene it caused (13b Bridge Port) with the purists and modders alike turning their noses up in disgust.
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froger
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| posted on February 2nd, 2009 at 09:27 PM |
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I have a complete 12a motor , adaptor plate , flywheel , exhaust , motor doesn't turn, was supposed to have been running a couple of years ago but
old mate lost interest in the project and let it sit in the car and never turned it over , $500.00 If interested PM me
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bugzla
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| posted on February 16th, 2009 at 11:39 PM |
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as mick said its all about placement of the radiator and oil cooler ducting and so on my car is still up for grabs just if your interested look in
members cars for some pics let me know if there are any more questions ............
steve
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on February 17th, 2009 at 12:36 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Euro_67
what was it about the rotary you disliked ? The EJ engines appear to be far more work to fit into a beetle than rotary due to size.
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The Wankel engines use too much fuel....
that was the main problem with them....
along with seals...
I don't know if they ever really fixed the seal problems...
the subaru engines are a modern technolegy engine
thats why they are used so much...
even with all the hassles...
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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ttriebler
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| posted on February 17th, 2009 at 11:18 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Euro_67
what was it about the rotary you disliked ? The EJ engines appear to be far more work to fit into a beetle than rotary due to size.
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The Wankel engines use too much fuel....
that was the main problem with them....
along with seals...
I don't know if they ever really fixed the seal problems...
the subaru engines are a modern technolegy engine
thats why they are used so much...
even with all the hassles...
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Of course they did, they are selling the RX8 aren't they?
And note the Rehayem's (Pac Racing) are turning out 1000+hp methanol turbo motors - I reckon they might have the seal thing worked out.
I know drag racing is only for 7 secs.
South Coast Rotary make a very good aftermarket seal that apparently gets revs to around 13,000rpm and has some awesome longevity - so the seals
really aren't an issue anymore.
Reversed gears for Subaru transmissions.
Fit a Subaru 5 speed to your rear engined car
www.subarugears.com |
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