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 Baja Wes
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 01:43 PM |
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Need a high quality 228mm clutch (too many revs)
For those that have read the fraser island post, you will know I broke my clutch plate on the island, and drove about 300km's home with no clutch
(it was stuck engaged).
For those that didn't read it, here are a couple of pics.
So the stock clutch didn't stand up to the punishment. Was it just a one-off poor quality clutch plate, who knows?
Does anyone know if someone makes high quality high HP clutch plates?
High torque pressure plates are well known, but I haven't heard of much in the way of clutches...
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 02:24 PM |
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Guessing you dont want to go to a button or puck style clutch disc ? as probably not flash for an offroader.
Have you considered taking the clutch plate to a clutch specialist and getting it relined ? can they do that ?
I should think that there will be something out there to suit.....
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MickH
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 02:28 PM |
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Hi Wes...good to see you made it home safely, in pieces....I have had the same problems over the years with different cars.....have opted for the
Feramic plate in my Manx as I did for my Celica when I used to race...Never had a problem with them (4 puc)Mick motors should be able to sort you out
or visit http://www.Chirco.com. Good luck!!!:bounce ps. wouldn't have had a
problem if you had stayed Aircooled!!!!!(kidding).......................
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 02:43 PM |
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I would prefer to stay away from the puck clutches as I want it to remain smooth. How smooth was yours Mick?
Maybe I could get it relined, but I think it managed to bend the metal part of the plate too :o
I've heard Sherman has HD clutches, I will see what his looks like.
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MickH
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 02:50 PM |
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Very smooth....got a FERAMIC one in the Manx with the springs. The one on the steroid is a solid centre CERAMIC and it bites like a bitch....not that
there is anything wrong with that , just file the teeth down
first.........found that the standard clutches slipped badly with the stock pressure plate on the manx. Did not want to change the pressure plate to a
Kennedy so opted for the feramic. No complaints.
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*did*
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 04:05 PM |
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check out our old clutch!
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Kombicol
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 04:33 PM |
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A mate done the same to the clutch in his kombi on moreton., he hade one specially made using an asbestos lining on the clutch plate and a very high
pressure spring in the pressure plate from a late porsche. The porsche spring fitted into a kombi clutch plate housing - apparently the rivets lined
right up. His pedal is very heavy now though. Will find out who did all this and let u know
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Andy
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 04:58 PM |
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A question for you Wes,
I'm guessing you don't do much clutch slipping with the torque of the V6???
So is the breakage due purely due to torque on a fully engauged clutch, or is it slipping under power?
Doesn't appear to have overheated (as in not slipping under power). If that's the case a different material may be all it needs as the
spring & flywheel is fine??
Just a thought
:thumb
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555bug
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 06:36 PM |
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Wes pop down to direct clutch and have them make you a four puck with a sprun center, the best of both worlds they have made me like 5 custom clutches over the years for differebt cars and all have been great. |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 08:30 PM |
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I'm guessing it died from power shifting into 2nd. The mazda pressure plate that I am using is quite strong and the clutch doesn't really
slip at all. So I have the HD pressure plate, I just need a clutch plate to match.
Ben, I'm not clear what you meant, is the T3 clutch plate a HD item, or the same as the normal kombi. If it's the same then it is what I
have already broken.
I don't know about going the 4 puck item, I don't need more torque capacity, I just need friction material that won't rip (kinda the
same thing I know). Where abouts is direct clutch?
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555bug
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| posted on December 2nd, 2003 at 10:10 PM |
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4 Bimbil street Albion, 38622680
steve down there has a 750hp rx3 that goes forwards in a hurry On a
tangent almost all the performance clutches in Australia are made by them and re baged by the various go fast shops. Anyway they will have the answer
if you have the $$$ |
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tonyg
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 05:54 AM |
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Sherman has Fichtel and sachs 2800 lb (whatever; I recall about 60% stronger than standard kombi, no slip no grab)clutch and pressure plate
they took me away haha, hope the medication works
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 11:30 AM |
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I rang direct clutch, they reckon the best option is to just bond and rivet a new lining on the VW clutch plate (the stock one is just riveted). They
say the bonding will not come apart and I won't have the problem I had.
The only possible side effect is 10% of bonded clutches get a slight clutch shudder on take off, because they take out the wave in the metal plate
between the friction linings. I don't think this will be much of an issue.
So I think this sounds like the best option, all for the grand total of $80.
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MickH
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 01:20 PM |
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Gotta be happy with that!!!:bounce:bounce:party
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1303Steve
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 02:57 PM |
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Hi
I used a 228 Kombi clutch in my bug and i slipped it before the turbo was fitted. I spoke to RaceClutch (hes an VW racer) in Brizzy and he reckons
228s are useless to modify so I took his advice and went back to 215mm, he built me a great clutch for my bug. Ask him what he thinks of Kennedy
clutches!
1302Steve
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 03:46 PM |
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After a bit of searching a few people seem to agree with the VW guru Gene Berg who said "What about the stock fabric type lining? - For many
applications this is fine, however when high RPM is achieved you often blow this lining apart at the rivets".
So people are telling me the centrifugal forces are ripping the clutch plate apart, not so much the HP tearing it apart. I guess it wasn't
designed to be doing almost 8,000rpm. Interesting.
Steve, maybe the guy at raceclutch was more referring to the 228mm pressure plate being useless and not worth modifying. If this is the case then it
doesn't apply to me as I am not using the 228mm pressure plate. I have heaps of clamping pressure and not slipping problems.
It's just the friction material ripping off is a slight problem. I am trying to ring race clutch for a second opinion, but their phone is
continually engaged or something strange....
oh, and I don't want more torque capacity, as I want the clutch to be the weakest link to prevent gearbox damage. But I want it to be the weakest
link in a slipping kinda way not an exploding kinda way
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 3rd, 2003 at 04:36 PM |
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I spoke to race clutch, he seems to know what he is on about. I am going to see him tomorrow to get his opinion. He doesn't seem to like the
bonded and riveted technique, but I haven't really figured out what technique he does like yet.
Will find out tomorrow I guess.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 4th, 2003 at 04:16 PM |
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well I went and spoke to Jim from race clutch. He definitely knows his stuff, and I was there for 2 hours talking!
He doesn't like the bond and rivet method, and thinks it makes the clutch harsh and vibrate.
He had two options, modify a 944 clutch to suit, but still no gaurantee it won't explode. Machine my pressure plate and a couple of other things,
all for around $275.
Other option was to send down south to have linings bonded and riveted to metal backing plates, and then riveted to the vw clutch disc. Shouldn't
explode but maybe take 1 month or more and cost $375.
So I think I will investigate the HD clutches on the market.
After conducting a post mortem with Jim, it was decided that the clutch broke apart from too high a revs, and not due to HP. It had many stress cracks
where it had obviously been starting to break for some time.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 8th, 2003 at 04:47 PM |
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ok, so my search for info has continued. Sachs calls the max speed of the clutch the burst speed. Sachs has this to say on their website...
| Quote: | "Facings are
individually designed to match engine performance; in order to prevent facing damage even by operating error (such as downshifting at high speeds),
the burst speed is designed to be 1.7–2.0 times the maximum engine speed."
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So bascially, if I buy a late model 2.1lt syncro clutch (been told it's the strongest, although Sachs and Luk say it's the same as the other
228mm plates anyway) it should be able to handle at least 1.7 times the syncro's redline. So 1.7 x 5400 = 9180rpm. so it should be fine.
I also found a clutch facing material manufacturer that states the burst speed of it's linings are 12000rpm. I guess that reduces once you drill
rivet holes through it, but still it seems ample.
I just kept thinking that the standard Mazda clutch is organic lined with nothing fancy and it survives just fine. So why shouldn't the vw clutch
handle the same revs? At the moment I am leaning towards buying a good Sachs or Luk clutch plate as opposed to the no-name unit I have. What do you
guys reckon, am I just being tight?
I want to keep the sprung center as I drive it as an everyday car in traffic and over obstacles offroad. The sprung center is there to eliminate weird
driveline vibrations and harmonics. I have a 0.70:1 ratio 4th so driveline harmonics while highway cruising is something I want to reduce.
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1303Steve
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| posted on December 8th, 2003 at 08:22 PM |
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Hi Wes
The 2.1 WBX max revs are 6,250 rpm, even better.
1302Steve
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MickH
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| posted on December 8th, 2003 at 08:42 PM |
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Perhaps you were just "unlucky" with the original clutch and got a dud? If it was me I would be going for a name brand like the ones you
suggested - would prefer the Luk one. Is it possible that the old clutch could have failed prematurely due to being wet/flogged etc on previous trips?
You must admit it has probably had a hard life,although a short one! Still like the 4 puk feramic though......good luck:bounce
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on December 8th, 2003 at 08:43 PM |
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Wes I run a standard Vw clutch plate with a 1700lb kennedy. I know your car puts out a lot more horsepower, but if it is rev related , why
haven't I had problems?
Are you sure it wasn't just a faulty part ?
Not that I know much about clutches:jesus
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555bug
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| posted on December 8th, 2003 at 09:26 PM |
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Wes after seeing your pictures on shoptalk I think you should first of all fix the PP surface then stick in any old clutch and then have the whole lot (flywheel, clutch, PP) dynamically balanced. At least this way
you are starting with a fresh slate allowing you to eliminate other possible weakness. |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 9th, 2003 at 08:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 555bug
Wes after seeing your pictures on shoptalk I think you should first of all fix the PP surface then stick in any old clutch and then have the whole lot (flywheel, clutch, PP) dynamically balanced. At least this way
you are starting with a fresh slate allowing you to eliminate other possible weakness.
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That's pretty much my plan.
And yes the other clutch probably was a dud. It had no brand name marking on it, and was bought from a supplier who is known for his crap quality
parts. I was trying to save money at the time, although that never works in the long run does it
Craig, out of interest, how high do you rev your engine?
The 228mm clutch is subjected to higher centrifugal forces than the 200mm clutch at the same revs, because the 228mm is a bigger diameter.
But I agree it shouldn't have really come apart. It did not look water damaged or anything.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on December 9th, 2003 at 11:26 AM |
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RE REVS: Most hillclimbs are approx 7500rpm gearchanges, 8k if I'm being stupid or I need to make a corner without changing up (not that often)
It is safe to say over 7000 every change.
I didn't think about your bigger dia plate though !:jesus
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 10th, 2003 at 09:27 PM |
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ok, so my plan is in action.
I have dropped my pressure plate and flywheel down to "direct clutch" to have the pressure plate machined flat, and the assembly dynamically
balanced.
I bought a new genuine 228mm sachs clutch plate. The difference between it and my old one is quite noticable.
The old one has 6 springs the same size, a course rough looking lining, and brass looking solid rivets (apparently only relines normally have
them).
The sachs has at least 3 different spring sizes designed to absorb various frequenct vibrations and makes the driveline smoother and quieter at idle
and on the move. It also has a lining of material that is finer and neater, similar in appearance to the original mazda clutch. If looks are anything
to go by, it should last heaps better than the old one
[img]http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/images/sach and broken.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/images/sachs clutch plate.jpg[/img]
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on December 10th, 2003 at 09:41 PM |
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:thumb
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on December 10th, 2003 at 09:44 PM |
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:thumb:bounce
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KruizinKombi
A.k.a.: Col
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| posted on December 11th, 2003 at 08:34 AM |
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Can I ask where you bought it and how much you paid?
Kruizin Kol
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Baja Wes
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| posted on December 11th, 2003 at 11:19 AM |
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$156 from Import Advantage. I am in the VW drivers club so I basically get trade price at import advantage :thumb
I think the original no name clutch cost about $66 :o, you get what your pay for I suppose.
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