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 speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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 posted on December 7th, 2002 at 05:01 PM |
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UPDATE...not a VW question but I need some advice! Sorry aircooled guys!!!!
OK the thing is I've just come back from a quick blast .........(not telling, controlled test on a circuit)? in the Spyder, the first long fast
drive @160+ for an extended period. And the fluid temp went thru the roof even at 110kph it climbed into the red. (EA82T mid mounted with radiator in
the rear) see image below. The fan is mounted below the radiator and exits out the twin grills on the top of the rear deck. The radiator fan has no
shroud so only blows up thru the diameter of the fan blades. Its seems to handle the temp generated at 60-80kmh but any higher than that it
skyrockets. The current setup is picking up preheated air from the engine and turbo/exhaust before going thru the radiator. If you have a look at the
shape of the car at the rear I'm thinking that there is turbulance at the grill area and this is counteracting the fan action? Any ideas,
I'm thinking
1. Duct from below the engine thru the radiator? +
2. Remove top and bottom radiator tanks and clean?
3. Or maybe reverse the flow of air drawing in from the top grills and exiting below the engine?
I know its not aircooled but there are some very clued up people on this forum.
Thanks.
Below is not my car just an example.
[Edited on 7-12-2002 by speedster356]
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by speedster356]
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 08:02 PM |
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Didn't the originals suck from the top and exit below, just like a volkswagen?
You may find that the aerodynamics of the car actually creates a lower-pressure area below the car than on top of the grilles, which would effectively
create a natural flow from top-to-bottom even without the fans. Also, the air would be cooler, which would help.
I'm assuming that is an electric fan? Does it have a thermostat? Are you using Radiator Coolant in the radiator? Is the water clean? Is the
thermostat working correctly or do you need to change it for one with a different operating temperature?
Is the pump working at its optimal speed? eg. speeding up the rotation of the pump can cause cavitation.
A better radiator may also help. Better quality radiators generally have more fins per inch for better heat dissipation, and more rows of tubes.
Also, what model Spyder is yours a replica of? If you get really desperate, you may have to resort to something like this: (See pic below)
PS. check out this link: http://takeoff.to/Spyder
[Edited on 7-12-2002 by KruizinKombi]
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Kruizin Kol
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twobus
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 08:23 PM |
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356
Is the radiator sealed to the bodywork ie with rubber strips when the panel is lowered, i think in my experience (13b extended prot in mazda truck)
the best thing you can do is shroud the fan as the spill over the ends of the fan blades can be huge. Also is the radiator is crossflow, It made a
huge difference when I recently put one in my truck.
Have you got the fan blades pointing the correct direction? , sorry about the silly questions but you never know
I am thinking of putting a turbo diesel in my 65 split bus and am going to run the airflow in at the bottom as yours and out through the vents as
well, I can't see a problem with your system that a bit of fine tuning won't fix.
Cheers
Twobus! when one is not enough
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 09:18 PM |
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Yes ur right kruzinkombi the originals did draw in from the grills! I have seen some drawings produced from Porsche R&D which shows a turbulant
flow in the rear area above the grills due to the interupted flow over the windscreen. If there was uninterupted airflow (no windscreen)I would expect
a high pressure area under the car due to the aerodynamic shape of the body? Much the same as an aircraft wing? Just guessing! Now that there is no
Ovals Only Cruise on Sunday it looks like I'll be fiddling with the cooling system.
The fan is running 100% of the time.
I need to check if the thermostat is in there..the car was from cold old NZ.
I was using coolant but may not have been the right ratio......I should
know this as I work in the place that manufactures the stuff!!!
The water was not the cleanest when I looked in the overflow pot!
Standard waterpump ratio.
The radiator is not baffled to the underside of the engine lid.
Fan blade pitch....Hmmm need to check tomorrow.
Crossflow radiator....goes in at the top on one side and returns from the bottom on the other side...if so,yes?
I have read lots about burping the cooling system .....an air pocket in the coolant piping restricting flow. I guess this is a high spot in the system
I am looking for?
I think I will try all these suggestions starting with the simple ones.
1.Check for thermostat and replace as required.
2.Clean system and recharge coolant at the right ratio.
3.Check pitch of fan for correct direction.
4.Fit baffles/shroud.
That should keep me out of the pub for a while......Mine is a 1955 550 Spyder replica, that drawing is a later RSK model.
Thanks guys I'll keep ya posted.
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Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 09:41 PM |
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Pete,
If the motor doesnt have a thermostat, putting one in isnt going to make the engine run cooler. This isnt to say that you shouldnt put one in, as your
motor would simply take a lot longer to reach normal operating (oil) temperature which is something Im sure you will agree, will protect the life of
the motor. I was told from the guy that I bought my motor from (EA81T) that after a long hard drive, the turbo actually glows red! Thats @#$% hot! The
reason partly for this is that these EA motors dont have intercoolers. This really compounds the under bonnet heat temps, not exculding the huge motor
intake temps. Maybe fit that water to air I/C that we all talked about elsewhere on this forum. Id definately fit a shroud of some sort to segregate
the actual motor compartment from the radiator compartment so the fan will only be blowing fresh air.
If all of that fails, you could sell me the car!? hee hee.....
Good luck, Im sure youll work it out....
Steve.
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speedster356
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 10:00 PM |
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Yikes...red hot turbo + fibreglass! hehehe
Can you heat wrap the turbo and exhaust? Will it be of any use in reducing the under lid temps?
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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OvalGlen
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| posted on December 7th, 2002 at 10:41 PM |
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I'm not a water cooled expert but someone that is fairly cluey told me that you should not run without thermostat as this alows water to flow too
quick - does not give it time to cool in rad..
Must admit that this advice reminds me of the "furthy" an engine needs a certain amount of exhaust back pressure - too little and you lose
power...ummmm.
-
I would draw air in from top as well. As Larry told me " do you know how hot that bitumen gets on a hot day"
Regards,Glenn>
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 06:38 AM |
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Yeah Glen I heard the same thing about thermostats. I know in an industrial application heat exchanger (reverse situation, heating with steam) that if
you don't allow the steam to condense in the exchanger by using a steam trap (slowing flow) the efficiency is decreased hugely.
But then the industrial coolers we use we just have a flow control on the cooling water side, the more flow = more cooling effect?
Hmmmmm, buggered if I know!
Another question 4 ya.
Should I be able to see water flow if I remove the radiator cap with engine running?
[Edited on 7-12-2002 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 06:40 AM |
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No, You cant wrap the turbo and exhaust manifold as they loose their heat dissipating properties. You can try the "Red Turbo Test" yourself.
At night, go for a good hard drive, pull over to the side of the road, lift the lid, and check out the turbo. Youll see that the thing actually has a
deep glow! Sheilding the turbo and manifold from the motor would also help alot I think. Does it have its standard sheilds in place?
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speedster356
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 06:48 AM |
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Turbo shielding
Just a side shield and where the exhaust bolts up. All else is exposed, not sure what the original had?
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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jeffh
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 07:44 AM |
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I tend to think that you should
1 - seal the border of the radiator to the underside of the engine lid around the perimeter of the louvres
2- shroud the fan edge to the underside of the radiator
3-reverse the airflow to pull from the top.
4- install a bleeder valve at the outlet of the radiator to remove air ( the header tank is above the rad isnt it?)
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speedster356
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 07:51 AM |
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Oh the fan does have a small shroud around the tip...just checked. But the area that it pushes air thru the radiator is only the size of the fan. Most
cars have a shroud from around the blade tips 2 the edge of the radiator? Hmmm did that sound right?
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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jeffh
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 07:55 AM |
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Yes you will need to seal right fom around the fan to the eouter edge of the rad
jeff
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Grey 57
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 09:37 AM |
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Don't have a lot to add, but I would be looking really hard at burbing the system. Most late model cars with xflow systems have air bleeder
valves located at the high spots.
The other thought I had was is the fan rotating in the right direction? Seems like a really basic one I know. But if the radiators out of a fwd subie
then the fan rotation would be for suck not blow.
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 04:34 PM |
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Just for the record, in a watercooled motor without a thermostat, the water will flow too quickly and will not allow time for the heat in the engine
to transfer to the water. The radiator won't seem too hot, but the heads will be cooking. A thermostat is a must!!
Kruizin Kol
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amazer
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| posted on December 8th, 2002 at 07:32 PM |
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I agree with previous posts about sealing the radiator against the grills and drawing air down through it.
You're crazy not to wrap exhaust and turbo! I can grab hold of my (wrapped)turbos exhaust and not burn myself. Keeps a lot of heat away from the
engine.
Might stop a nasty accident sometime too.
If you can possibly fit an intercooler then do so. It will lower the head temperatures dramatically.
Apart from engine temp problems, keeping heat IN the exaust and OUT of the intake will give you better performance.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 10th, 2002 at 10:57 AM |
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Although this is starting to get off the subject heading, Ill try to explain the reasoning I dont think wrapping the turbo and dump pipe are
beneficial. OK, turbo's under full boost/load operate at approx 1000deg give or take depending on all the variables you can think of. I think
that keeping this heat inside the housing cant be good for a couple of reasons. The more heat that is placed on the turbine bearings and turbine
itself, places more load on the cooling systems eg: oil and water which both flow through the turbo to keep it inside operating temps and to lubricate
the (fluid) bearings. Wrapping the turbo housing will incubate this temperature and place even more load on the cooling system and turbo system
itself, so you'd want to make sure that both of these liquids are changed regularly to keep them clean. Although the turbo exhaust housing isnt
primarily the main cooling mechanism of the turbo setup, it still plays a roll of dispensing heat. I think this rising heat needs to have an easy path
out of the engine bay by the way of heat sheilds. I know a couple of guys that have had to replace their actual turbos and manifold exhaust pipes (off
turbo) when they have had them wrapped. I think this would be because of the immense temperature build up which then in turn causes immense pressure
build up, which in turn causes too much expansion, which then cracks really imortant metals, which you dont want to crack. The next reason being,
pressure inside the exhaust which is directly related to heat (+heat = +pressure) is an enemy of any engine. when the combusted gases leave a
cylinder, they look for the easiest path, or lowest pressure route, to escape to atmosphere. The quicker the gasses escape, the more efficient a motor
will run. You can see that by people fitting larger exhausts and match porting manifolds to heads. If the route (exhaust) that these combusted gases
go through are considerably hot, remember the hotter the air, the higher the pressure, it causes a lot more resistance than these gases or mechanical
parts would like. So, the motor would run less efficient and the mechanical parts that are putting up with the extra heat and pressures will break
down before thier time. I know that some of the drag guys use thermo wrap a bit but I would presume this would be to keep the turbo and manifold from
expanding too quickly and breaking things they dont want to break in 10 seconds.
This is just my opinion, so Im very interested to find out why people like you amazer, use it?. Could anyone tell me the pros of using this stuff?
Hutcho
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on December 10th, 2002 at 01:36 PM |
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Okay guys, about the turbo / turbo exhaust piping wrap. Please dont take this as me being a know - it - all, but as I work in the maintenance section
of an oil refinery, believe it or not we see similar sorts of phenomenon in some of our very hot equipment (800°c +).
Using exhaust wrap or turbo jackets WILL keep your engine bay cooler. They will keep you engine bay cooler than running with a reflective shroud.
However, because they insulate so well, all of the heat generated (apart from that which exits with the exhaust gases) stays in the exhaust housing /
exhaust piping. When metals get too hot (actual temperature depends on the alloy) it undergoes a mechanism called High Temperature Oxidation, which
appears like rust - the metal oxidises and the flakes off. The longer the metal is at these temperatures, the more it occurs, until you have a hole in
your piping (a matter of years, but still)
Second. The overheating can place huge thermal stresses on turbo exhaust housings, causing them to crack.
Third, when you actually shut the engine off, it will take a helluva a lot longer for the turbo to cool down to a temperature where it wont form
carbon deposits on the shaft / bearings. Ideally you would use a turbo timer that has a temp sensor on the turbo / oil system somewhere.
So, in my opinion (and thats all it is, I dont want to TELL people more experienced than I) turbo / exhaust wrap causes more problems than it cures,
unless you run a drag car.
For the record, whether a car is intercooled or not wont have a significant difference on whether your turbo glows or not (even bog stock turbo cars
will glow if you drive them hard enough).
Doug
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 10th, 2002 at 03:04 PM |
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Cool! some replies... Yep. I think that all a wrap is going to do, is reduce engine bay temps, which is good in a way for Peter but when his cooling
system is working fine, it wont matter.
If you think of a tap (motor cylinder), that is running full pressure (exhaust gases) through a hose (exhaust) that is connected to it, you'll
see that the water (spent gases) that comes out the end of the hose is pretty much equal (minus frictional losses) to the pressure thats coming out of
the tap itself ie: the water runs freely. If you put another tap (the turbo) somewhere along the length of the hose and it automatically screwed down
as temp rises, the pressure coming out the back of the hose will be less and the pressure between the two taps or cylinder and turbo, will be a much
higher pressure potential, BUT as the second tap tightens down due to the rising heat, the water (exhaust gases) from the first tap (motor cylinder)
flows to the second tap much less because of the resistance the 2nd tap or turbo has built up. When this happens, the weakest link will let go and
this is usually the turbo because it is trying to hold back the pressure and heat.
I think with the wrap on the turbo, it would take a hell of a lot longer for the turbo bearings to cool down as Doug said. Where if your oil and water
were in top nick, Id be surprised if you had to cool it down at all if you drove for a minute or two off boost. A perfect "turbo timer"
would be as Doug said again, to place a thermocouple into the piping that runs from your turbo down to the sump. wire it through a relay so as your
motor wouldnt turn off until the thermocouple senses the oil is at the right temp.
No, an intercooler wont have much effect whether the turbo glows or not, just retained heat and higher pressures.
An intercooler, especially a water/air will help reduce engine bay temps. The intake manifolds on the EA82's easily reach over 100deg which the
manifold is soaking and giving off in the engine bay. Fitting an I/C would reduce that greatly. These are only my idea's as well. Ive had a
coulpe of turbo'ed cars, but Im no expert at all! I too work in the maintenance field, and heat is one of our biggest enemies so we are always
looking at ways to reduce it.
Please dont take me as a knowitall either. Its just that Im about to do a conversion along the same lines as Pete, so Ive been trying to find out as
much as I can about this rear engined watercooled, turbo setup.
Id love some more comments!
Sorry about the lenth of my posts!
Hutcho
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 11th, 2002 at 10:48 PM |
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Your right sleepe3, water and carbon monoxide are different but the fundamental principals in the systems would be the same I think. Yeah, we should
have been concentrating on the other issues I guess. Wouldnt the high intake temps be directly related to Thrermal Efficiency? Basically, I agree with
everything youve said! In my first post I suggested an intercooler to reduce heat although I did say in one post that installing an I/C would reduce
turbo temp but Doug pointed out that this would have no significant benefit and I conceed. I also fully agree that WRAPPING this stuff will reduce
under bonnet temps but at what cost was all I was trying to point out. Hope I didnt peev anyone.:thumb:thumb:thumb
Cheers
Hutcho
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Hutcho
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| posted on December 12th, 2002 at 11:22 AM |
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So, Pete hows it going? Acheived positive results yet? Let us know!
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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| posted on December 12th, 2002 at 03:13 PM |
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Not had a chance to get into it yet. (I've had to do WORK at work!!!)
BUT: after a quick look.
1. Looks like I might have a high point on the return line from the radiator which might need to be bled.
2. But the fan is pitched correctly for the way it's rotating so that takes that one out.
This weekend I'll have time to give it a really good going over, looking at all that has been suggested here.
BTW, thanks for all the input guys I'm sure we can sort it out between us.
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on December 12th, 2002 at 05:57 PM |
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There is an excellent article on radiators in the latest Street Machine magazine.
Kruizin Kol
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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| posted on December 13th, 2002 at 10:54 AM |
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Thanks kruizinkombi I'll check it out.
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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68AutoBug
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 posted on December 13th, 2002 at 08:20 PM |
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Fluid cooled -- porsche --
Well it looks like Most things have been covered..... I am a BIG Believer in Fan Shrouds... they can make all the
difference... and covering of exhausts etc...with thermal wrap will STOP a lot of heat from the engine bay.. and I also believe that its better to
have a thermostat than NOT having one.... As long as its the correct temp & pressure etc.... and the Radiator must be sealed against the engine
cover... and I do believe the extra air vents will make a difference.... to reverse the Air fllow I believe You would need an air foil or scoop to
force air into the Vents.... which I'm sure You don't want to do...
Best of Luck.... Make sure You have the correct Radiator cap..- whether it has a tank or not...... & the correct Coolant...
Best of Luck..... from My experience... I don't think You can see the coolant flowing with the cap off...... A FULL Fan Shroud is a
must....:thumb
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- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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Plastic not Classic Racing
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Mood: Producing boost again in NZ
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| posted on December 14th, 2002 at 03:22 PM |
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3. Has a thermostat, 82C. When I tested it just started to open at about the correct temp, but it was only open about 1mm if that. Should it be
completely open at the stated temp or it it where it starts to open? Any ideas?
Have got a new one but not installed.
4. Did some temperature checks but only at idle and looks like I'm getting about only 12C temp change across the radiator, NOTE: this was at idle
and car not moving.
[Edited on 14-12-2002 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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Plastic not Classic Racing
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Mood: Producing boost again in NZ
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 03:21 PM |
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cooling system problems latest
OK heres what has been going on......looks like we've solved the cooling problems by:
1. Correct ratio of coolant to water.
2. Put 2 fans with a shroud.
3. Reversed the flow of air from pulling up under the car with all that engine heat to pulling thru the rear grills and out the bottom, still need to
baffle from radiator to engine lid.
4. New thermostat.
Thanks for the input guys:kiss......but now....I put a temperature probe just after the turbo compresser and just before the throttle body inlet and
gave it some, and on sustained boost the temperature got up to 100 deg C!!! That sounds pretty high to me, what do ya think? (no intercooler)
Boost is only about 7psi?
Heres a hint, dont take your new boost gauge out of the box and then drop it, it does nothing for the calibration!
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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Buggy Boyz
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 10:04 PM |
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The thermostat myth
I have heard all about this thermostat myth and have tested it out in person when I use to play with Turbos and my cruisers.
I had a 3B with the garret on it. I ran it without the thermostat and it ran hot.
I ran it with the thermo stat and it ran hot. I pulled the thermostat apart and put the outer only in, ie flowed as though it was fully open plus a
little and it ran cool.
I agree you need an inline restriction to assist in lag time for the fluid to sit in the cores but to much of a good thing heads towards overload.
Now since yours is in a non standard setup with different cooling angles / flows / etc etc . I would suggest you have a play with the flow and how it
effects cooling. You may find it quite suprising.
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by Buggy Boyz] |
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KruizinKombi
A.k.a.: Col
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 10:48 PM |
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I have no idea what sort of inlet temperatures you should be expecting, but 100 degrees does sound pretty hot! Maybe the rice-burner boys may have
some info on that kind if thing, being 'hi-tech' as they are. It can't hurt to ask.
Maybe it's time for an intercooler or some water injection to get the intake temps down?
Kruizin Kol
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speedster356
A.k.a.: Peter Mcleod
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Plastic not Classic Racing
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Mood: Producing boost again in NZ
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| posted on January 27th, 2003 at 01:35 PM |
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more mods
Intercooler seems the way to go, and as you said the only problem would be ensuring that there is a sufficent airflow through the unit.
I'm swaying more to the air/water unit and a duct system from just in front of the engine at the bottom and exiting out the bottom rear of the
engine. (full duct over the top of the engine where the intercooler is mounted). Most likely have to add a small fan to try to keep the heatsink
problem at bay (build up of heat when not on boost and at idle etc).
I have started to shape the foam mould and will most likely build using carbon, never worked with carbon so it will be interesting?
The other mod will be to add even more natural airflow through the radiator (as opposed to forced with fans) to aid cooling at higher speeds, this
will be much the same deal as the intercooler duct and will pick up on the other side of the crank centerline in front of the engine at the bottom of
the car and tie into the radiator top (cool air).
The thing is with all these mods I'm adding weight........so all the carbon or glass ducting will have to be light!!!!
Hehehe, this is fun stuff......
[Edited on 28-1-2003 by speedster356]
Spyder-WISD 07-09-05 11.6s @ 125 MPH
Speedster-WISD Nats 05 14.4s @ 89 MPH
Jet cruiser-Coogee 22-09-05 900 deg C @ 110,000 rpm
Weaseling out of things is what separates us from the animals....................Except the Weasel.
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