| [ Total Views: 2375 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 22993 ] |
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 MidnightOval
A.k.a.: Andrew
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 12:43 PM |
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Engine cooling
Third post and so many questions....
Everywhere I look I see smooth decklids with larger engines underneath. I am running a 1600 with twin kads and non standard exhaust (not sure of the
type) under the stock W deck of our 1957 oval.
I am having a few heat problems and wanted to get an understanding of what my options are to keep cool, especiallly on the highway. Are there any
accepted standards or is it a dark art, I want to look as stock as possible and don't want to fiddle with a radiator.
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Desert Moose
A.k.a.: Chris Hill
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 12:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MidnightOval
Third post and so many questions....
Everywhere I look I see smooth decklids with larger engines underneath. I am running a 1600 with twin kads and non standard exhaust (not sure of the
type) under the stock W deck of our 1957 oval.
I am having a few heat problems and wanted to get an understanding of what my options are to keep cool, especiallly on the highway. Are there any
accepted standards or is it a dark art, I want to look as stock as possible and don't want to fiddle with a radiator.
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Have you removed any tinware to fit the carbs or exhaust, have you got a flash pulley on the crank.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 01:46 PM |
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Use a product called HOODJAX, available from Vintage VW or Stan Pobjoys.
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MidnightOval
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 03:57 PM |
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The tinware is all there including pulley cover plate, there are a few gaps where there no covers over the preheat flanges.
There heater hose holes are plugged as well.
I haven't heard of HOODJAX, do they stand the decklid off at the the top?
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twoguns
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 04:20 PM |
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hoodjax, do stand the lid off. also lets the rain in, unless you get out and close em and doesnt give you the smooth standard look.
you could fit a larger kombi cooler, by modifying the shroud. if youre in sydney you could talk to mike at CBB for this. i remember i had the same
problems with my 66 that had a 55 oval rear graft.
and on hte split i have the kombi cooler fitted to the 1776. works good but some days i think i need something more. but like the lady and mike keep
saying.... how fast do you need to go?
Simply Cruzin'...
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on May 16th, 2004 at 10:35 PM |
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Midnight oval,
Deck Lid stand offs are $20 from Mick Motors in Brisbane... Why haven't You filled in Your profile??
We can live without You having an Avatar but it
Drives Us Crazy trying to guess where You Live.....
a better option maybe to add an external oil ccoler to Your engine.. along with an engine spin on oil filter...
Both these will help Your engine last longer...
Lee --
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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MidnightOval
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 01:01 PM |
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Apologies, I have updated my profile my location is sunny Wollongong NSW.
I recently got some advice to cut extra air intake holes under the grill beneath the window. Has anybody tried this? I am worried that even more
rain will leak into the kads (probably another post in itself...)
Thanks for everybodys help so far.
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 01:42 PM |
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No use using a larger cooler if your engine is starving from air !!!
Remeber the engine is AIR cooled, not Oil cooled.
Jakriz has tried and tested the T4 cooler and found there was little benefit, this was in race and street conditions.
Fitting an external cooler maybe worth while, but only after all other options have been utilised.
Just my opinion 
P.S. Hoodjax can be opened and closed in about 30sec, if its raining then it is probably a cooler day and you won't need the lid open !!
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VWFREAK
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 02:59 PM |
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Try using alloy air scoops undernearth the car. I've used this to good effect on an 1835cc. Works a treat on long trips and is easily hidden.
Good luck:bounce
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56astro
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| posted on May 17th, 2004 at 08:25 PM |
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Here is a pic of my modified engine lid
http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~astro/images/DSCN0149.JPG
the extra vents are off a later model engine lid that have been grafted in by the panel beater/spray painter. (the pixels make it look a bit
shitty)
The later model engine lids had more vents than the earlier ones
[Edited on 17-5-2004 by 56astro]
[Edited on 17-5-2004 by 56astro]
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa |
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MidnightOval
A.k.a.: Andrew
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| posted on May 23rd, 2004 at 03:33 PM |
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Thanks Steve I got a real kick checking out your site. Have you fitted this yet? I am a bit reluctant to cut the deck lid they are getting rarer
aren't they? If anybody else has any suggestions I am still interested. I have to get the motor rebuit and want to make sure that it lasts. Maybe
I need to bite the bullet....
Here is a picture of our oval from 04 Volksday. Before we owned it:
[Edited on 23-5-2004 by MidnightOval]
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OZ Towdster
A.k.a.: Andrew Westwood
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| posted on May 23rd, 2004 at 05:45 PM |
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Just a couple of questions are you runing a 36hp, standard, or doghouse fan shroud ,if it is a dog house has it got a 34mm wide fan in it as oposed
to possibley haveing a 28mm fan that will fit but does not work well in the dog/H shroud? what size is the said motor?. If the cooler in side the
shroud has ANY gap around it the air being pushed by the fan will go around the cooler as opoused to threw it hence resulting in not cooling the oil
plus also resulting in a lower air presure over the cylinders. Last of all look for any small air leeks between fan shroud and tin and tin and
body.Now before everybody else gets on there high horse just check these ideas out and you will be suprised AS I BLOODY WAS at the temp drops.
Don't let body work get in the way of real suspension travel
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56astro
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| posted on May 23rd, 2004 at 06:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MidnightOval
Thanks Steve I got a real kick checking out your site. Have you fitted this yet?
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Not yet, but it's not far away now!!
and thanks for the compliment
[Edited on 23-5-2004 by 56astro]
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
35MPG on 101.3kPa
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boof2332
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| posted on May 23rd, 2004 at 10:22 PM |
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Hi Guys,
One of the recent VW trends had a section called" keepin your cool"
The most discreet way shown was to duct air up either side of the box and have it blow onto the Kadrons through holes either side cut into tinware
and sealed, then they prop open the bottom of the deck lid about an inch, not the top. It just looks like it isnt shut properly. The air supposedly
travels in the front and out the back, can hardly tell, no rain problems and real cool especially on freeway.
I'll try and find the mag, although thats it in a nutshell.
Good luck, hope this has helped.
Matt
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Oasis
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| posted on May 23rd, 2004 at 10:54 PM |
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OK here's another one, although some people wouldn't like it. I have been using semi-synthetic oil (shell ultra) and the temperature has dropped
around 10 degrees on the freeway. There is a post somewhere here about it. It never gets too hot but it does make the car leak a little more than
usual, but not too much. Good oil, and easy solution. No deck lid mods or hood jacks... and by the way it's 10w-50.
"Tell him 'We've already got one'"
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on May 24th, 2004 at 12:12 AM |
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I know a fellow with a standard 1600 engine in a 1968 Beetle which had no engine lid vents. His engine does get HOT in the summer and He drives slower
to combat this..
Wouldn't ducted air from under the car and into the engine bay help cool an engine? Have it come thru the tinware plate that the doghouse oil
cooler exits thru...
I'm sure that this method would probably work, but would You also need Your non vented engine lid open at the bottom a few inches...?? or NOT ???
Maybe Not !!
Lee
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- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 25th, 2004 at 11:31 AM |
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....just my 10c....
I would think carefully about opening the engine lid at the bottom - remember that the hot air from the engine exits from under the car at this point
and the exhaust is also down there, therefore, should any air be drawn up through the partly open engine lid it would be pre-heated (definatly NOT
what you want!). This may not be the case if you are running ducts under the car forcing air up behind the fanhousing, at least whilst you are
moving, but once you stop.....
The way that we have always delt with this problem is to run the biggest fan/fanhousing you can find (we always run Type IV oil coolers and modify the
fanhousing to suit), if the lid isn't vented, then lift it at the top and only run standard size pullys (not the power pullys). This has worked fine
for us. As mentioned above, some of the hood lifting devices on the market allow you to close the engine lid quickly and with a minuimum of fuss if
you should decided that you want to (ie, rain, security, etc), but ours are alway left open (with the lid locked) and we have never had any
problems.
As I said before, just my 10c (inc GST):P
R
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nbturbo
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| posted on May 25th, 2004 at 04:33 PM |
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Back in the early '70's my brother used to do club circuit racing at Adelaide International Raceway with (from memory) the Austin Healy club with
his Beetle which had a 1600 with 92mm P&C with big valve single port heads and dual Holden carbs and a fairly hot cam.He used to clean up a lot
of them but his oil temp used to get pretty high.He found the best way to keep it cooler was to slightly open the engine cover(about 50mm) and prop it
with a block of wood and occy strap the handle to the rear bumper.He tried the stand offs but found this to be better.Explain that????
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boof2332
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| posted on May 26th, 2004 at 11:47 AM |
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Whilst lazily browsing the U.S forums, I have read of another way that it has been done...Maybe a pain to do, but here we go.
To keep the lid shut for looks and security the guy cut a hole in the firewall and ran a direct pipe to the back of the fan. The pipe does and right
hand turn down behind the rear seat and protrudes out somewhere under the car where it is mounted. The pipe was insulated to reduce noise and he
claims temps went down considerably.
He also had smaller pipes that he somehow ducted from underneath to his Kadrons/webers simply for cool air effect. He claim the temp dropped
marginally from this although the less hot air those carbs get the better.
Something different,
Matt
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lugnuts
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| posted on May 26th, 2004 at 03:24 PM |
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Whats your motor like,mine was so bad i could only run it at night P&Cs were totally worn out lettin blowby into crankcase and heating up the oil
a new set of 2nd hand pistons and cyls and fixed.What distributer have you got a 009,did you set the advance at max 28-30 with a strobe and let the
idle fall where it may.Are your Kads a recent addition are they jetted for your motor and exhaust. |
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LOWBUG
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| posted on May 26th, 2004 at 07:58 PM |
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This is a common prob with Ovals, remember they came out with very small engines.
The dog house shroud and late model fan is definatly the way to go to start with, but also how old and tired is your engine. External oil coolers work
on big engines but dosn't help with head and barrel temps. I know of a fella who cut a hole in the fire wall and ran a 6" 90 degree angle pvc pipe
from the back of the shroud and directed it over the gear box which draws in air from outside the car whilst keeping original lines, in fact you
can't evan tell its there.
But I'd be checking out the conditoin of you engine, a good well built engine with all tin ware in place won't run hot unless you restrict it.
I your really confused get in touch with wayne penrose or schimo down your way.
Good Luck
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MidnightOval
A.k.a.: Andrew
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| posted on May 27th, 2004 at 11:17 AM |
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Thanks so far for everybody's help. I am really a novice to this. For those that have asked the engine is is 1600. The Kads I have absolutely no
idea about, I was told they could do damage if we drive it too hard, probably means they are not jetted correctly. It is my wifes car and she like the
g-forces but not to the extent where I would be worried.
Dunham Motors suggested I drill some extra holes or cut fins out of the louvers underneath the rear window. If I fit VDO temp gauges where is the
best point to place the sensors and what is a normal operating temp?
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lugnuts
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| posted on May 28th, 2004 at 03:47 AM |
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A dipstick sender is the easiest way,and if it gets to 100c or 210f its to hot. |
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 28th, 2004 at 10:09 AM |
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...I agree, a dipstick sender is the easiest way and the temps mentioned by lugnuts are correct. You could also fit a sender into the sump drain
plate - but be warned if the vehicle is lowered or is used on unsealed roads (grass paddocks/long grass on the side of the road/etc) it is possible to
pull the wire off the sender if it is mounted here. That said, I know a number of people who have put the sender here and it works fine.
R
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AdrianH
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| posted on May 28th, 2004 at 02:11 PM |
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Heres my 5c worth.
Firstly as mentioned before, if the rings and pistons are knackered, you introduce a whole lotta heat into the crankcase.
Secondly - make sure all the tin is sealed up well, any hot air getting into the engine bay creates more heat.
Thirdly if your jetting is lean it will create heat in the heads - head temperature and oil temperature are not joined at the hip, I can get 300F at
the heads and 100F in the oil on my engine. Head temp is a product of combustion.
FWIW I run a 2110 in a 55, I use a T4 converted early fan shroud, It runs cool with no external oil cooler - you can overkill it.
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LOWBUG
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| posted on May 28th, 2004 at 09:26 PM |
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Wow I run a 2 ltr type 1 with efi and I have trouble getting it to run at operating temp it only gets to 85deg in the winter evan with covering the
external oil cooler wich I need for the summer, I also have my deck lid stood off which is probably my problem but I need to feed the twin throttle
bodies.
I think a pattern will form from all the advice that is given here and you'll come up somthing as we all have whether its tried or proven.
Enjoy your VW
Cheers
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boof2332
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| posted on May 31st, 2004 at 10:28 PM |
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Excellent point addressed by AdrianH.....Jetting.
Raw fuel is the key to cool heads...if you run lean then there are big problems.
Fully synthetic oil is designed to resist heat absorbtion. In the vw motor oil is used to absorb heat and transfer it away from the heads assisting in
cooing. There are aparently new part synthetic oils which work quite well..
Head casting is also an important choice...It is well known that aftermarket heads such as street eliminators, superflows etc are great for the strip
although they lack the correct amount of cooling fins. Some people have had no problems with these heads on their cars although the general opinion in
the states, for a street car, is to get a set of cb 044's and port them to your desired application. They have plenty of cooling fins and are strong
where it counts.
Finally correct exhaust size is important. Any restriction at the exhaust port will cause resistance and thus heat. This is not too say big is better,
although knowing what size header is best suited to your carb, valve size, capacity will also aid the correct running temp of your motor.
Hope some of this may help those who hadnt heard it before,
Take care all,
Matt
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MidnightOval
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| posted on June 3rd, 2004 at 07:28 PM |
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In reseraching the topic I found an article on the Jene Berg website. They recommend the use of a standard oil cooler/fan shroud with all the correct
fittings. My engine is pretty modest, and will remain that way.
The engine now needs work anyway, with the rings gone. If anybody can outline a similar setup that works well I would be grateful.
Again thanks everybody for their input.
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on June 12th, 2004 at 08:27 PM |
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genuine vw aftermarket cooling (kinda ?)
attached are some photos of a cooling mod i did for my girlfriends roadster. This car had huge cooling issues as when the conversion was done and the
back extended up to right behind the back seat all the vents were removed and the deck lid had no vents at all. It used to eat motors on warm days but
now runs as cool as you like. The mod consists of of an undercar scoop that uses the front air box from the boot of a seventy one super bug to push
air directly into the fan housing via two 50mm plastic pipes that come up through the bottom of the parcel shelf and out through a hole cut in the
fire wall, the fittings that fix the hose to the firewall are plastic floor drains from bunnings and the hose from clark rubber. I had to heat the
hose with a heat gun to soften up so it would fit over the thread of the floor drain. I had wrecked super bug out back to donte air box but i guess a
vw wrecker would have plenty pretty cheap. It works well and even at idle if you put your hand over the shroud and near where the pipes exit the
firewall you can feel displacement sucking the air in. ground clearance not an issue. i have no flow figures but i reckon it pushes a lot of air in to
your fan.i am going to use this and hoodjaks in my 1916 project
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bigbruvabob
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| posted on June 12th, 2004 at 08:31 PM |
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genuine vw aftermarket cooling (kinda ?)
attached are some photos of a cooling mod i did for my girlfriends roadster. This car had huge cooling issues as when the conversion was done and the
back extended up to right behind the back seat all the vents were removed and the deck lid had no vents at all. It used to eat motors on warm days but
now runs as cool as you like. The mod consists of of an undercar scoop that uses the front air box from the boot of a seventy one super bug to push
air directly into the fan housing via two 50mm plastic pipes that come up through the bottom of the parcel shelf and out through a hole cut in the
fire wall, the fittings that fix the hose to the firewall are plastic floor drains from bunnings and the hose from clark rubber. I had to heat the
hose with a heat gun to soften up so it would fit over the thread of the floor drain. I had wrecked super bug out back to donte air box but i guess a
vw wrecker would have plenty pretty cheap. It works well and even at idle if you put your hand over the shroud and near where the pipes exit the
firewall you can feel displacement sucking the air in. ground clearance not an issue. i have no flow figures but i reckon it pushes a lot of air in to
your fan.i am going to use this and hoodjaks in my 1916 project
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