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Author: Subject: Rack and Pinion Steering
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posted on August 16th, 2006 at 03:25 PM



The VW ackerman appears to converge just in front of the rear axle. Either shortening the wheelbase, or widening the front would appear to compensate, BUT, it's not really off in the first case. The arms on the spindles are positioned to compensate for the fact that the VW doesn't use a drag link connecting them. Instead, the angle that the tie rods leave the pitman, and the subtle offset on the pitman for the two sides makes the ackerman correct. If you use a drag link you will have excess ackerman. The steering arms on the spindles would need to be bent, and I don't want to go that route. Using the longer tie rods in a center loaded rack, and including some tie rod angle (close, but not exactly like the original pitman set-up) should be the closest compromise. I grew up on shortened buggies and know that feeling of flying just above the ground on the edge of control.
I was considering a drag link, but for now I'm fabricating a second rack location. I can't go back to pitman because my beam mounts to the frame in such a way that the pitman is limited in movement before hitting the frame. Before I buy anything, I'll toy with some 'tween rack locations. If I buy, it will be a center loaded rack. The aftermarket ones all seem to have the pinion dead in the middle, and over complicate the steering wheel linkage. I'm a spreadsheet guy too, and I'm busy with the work already done, modifying and adding little details like body height to the graph. Since my project is a sports car, my suspension travel is small. I widened my beam, and while doing so, shortened the tosion bars. This reduces the bump steer where I hope I can move the rack rearward without getting too much bump. Bad thing is.... the bump will ramp up steeply at the worst time... in a nose dive braking situation, or severe body roll corner. Thanks for the great foundation to help describe the front end, I'll let you know how I end up.
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posted on August 22nd, 2007 at 11:31 AM



Wes,
this is a fantastic thread and the work you have done is very comprehensive to say the least. :thumb

But lets get to the nitty gritty!!!

It's been over a year since the last post! Where have you ended up on this mission --- "to get R&P legal in Qld" ???

Cheers
Matt :thumb:thumb:thumb:thumb




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posted on August 23rd, 2007 at 04:21 PM



:)

We got to the stage of fabricating a jig to hold the rack in the correct place for installation, and had a rack all ready to go, but none of the interested parties could be bothered during the final fabrication and going through with it :(

I don't see a need to pull my car to bits to install it, and the other people interested ended up selling their buggy projects. The parts are still around and may end up in something. The approval engineer didn't have any issues with it as we were using a combination of standard steering parts, and we could prove the bumpsteer would be fine.




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posted on August 23rd, 2007 at 07:05 PM



Mate that sounds very interesting.. I am starting a baja project as we speak!!!
Rack sounds real good. How do we get started?

Matt:tu::tu::)




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posted on August 23rd, 2007 at 09:32 PM



My Iguana Buggy has Rack and pinion going into it, it is in there now for mock up.



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posted on August 24th, 2007 at 10:07 AM



brad ive sent you a few (lots) of email's could you send me an email
exxhippy@hotmail.com




its just a car for f*%k sake
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posted on August 24th, 2007 at 02:24 PM



I'll check it out Brad, next time I'm in, assuming COR.

Matt.




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posted on August 25th, 2007 at 03:36 PM
done


Quote:
Originally posted by newoldmanx
brad ive sent you a few (lots) of email's could you send me an email
exxhippy@hotmail.com


Done




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posted on August 25th, 2007 at 03:37 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by matberry
I'll check it out Brad, next time I'm in, assuming COR.

Matt.


Nope it is in our other shed




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posted on September 19th, 2007 at 07:30 PM



hi there guys ..... now i have a question that i thought kinda in a way is ok for this thread

a lil while back i was looking over to sandrail type looking buggies ( race i guess as they had numbers and stickers on them .. lol ) and what i found was a ver ununusual steering setup ,, couldnt find an owner to ask about it either .. soo here is what i found


instead of runnign rack and pinion or a standard steerin box set up both of these buggies used twin vw steering boxes,,, however only one of the steering boxes was linked to the steering colum..

it looked somthing like this ( sorry about the bad paint but you get the idea.. i hope )

now the only thoughts i had on this was to ... A ) instead of having one long arm there is now 2 short arms ,, and B) maybe add a lil bit more resistance in the drive line ..

does anybody know anythign about this set up and if it actually has a purpose ?? and if so what ??

cheers guys




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posted on September 19th, 2007 at 07:33 PM



hmm my paint picture didnt show up but basically there is to steering boxes side by side ( abotu 800 - 1000 apart) connected by a draglink style of bar connected to 2 rose joints at eother end that link to the tie rods .... and ony one box is connected to the steering colum

not sure if that made sense :P




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posted on October 1st, 2007 at 09:54 PM



i find it picture for you rack in buggy gold coast

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posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 12:42 PM



im think it is named volksmod?



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posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 07:55 PM



The twin steering box has already been discussed on this thread. 1970's technology.



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posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 10:30 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by matberry
The twin steering box has already been discussed on this thread. 1970's technology.


...so, about 40 years smarter than the rest of the design! :P




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posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 10:40 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
im think it is named volksmod?


Yes, that is Kurt and Gunter, we know those guys. When they first installed that R&P in their buggy they put it in the wrong spot and it had huge bump steer problems. I told them about all the info in this thread to help correct the issue.




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posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 11:16 PM
mmm


Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Wes
Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
im think it is named volksmod?


Yes, that is Kurt and Gunter, we know those guys. When they first installed that R&P in their buggy they put it in the wrong spot and it had huge bump steer problems. I told them about all the info in this thread to help correct the issue.


It has now been moved an is much better and in the correct position.




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posted on October 3rd, 2007 at 10:00 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Wes
Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
im think it is named volksmod?


Yes, that is Kurt and Gunter, we know those guys. When they first installed that R&P in their buggy they put it in the wrong spot and it had huge bump steer problems. I told them about all the info in this thread to help correct the issue.

is volksmod doing instalation for customer. buggy is best i did seen in australia. do you know the swinging open hood i never see on manx buggy




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posted on October 3rd, 2007 at 11:37 AM



That is their buggy, but they do also build them for customers. I think the bonnet is a custom mod.



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posted on October 12th, 2007 at 03:36 PM



why it is difficult for the rack steering in the vw
:duhdid you see it
http://www2.cip1.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=C26%2D425%2D170&PhotoNumber...
:no: and
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C26%2D425%2D165 
:cool:
also many company selling beam with rack mount
the rack and pinion steering into vw it is very easy


[ Edited on 12-10-2007 by helmut ]

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posted on October 12th, 2007 at 05:12 PM



mods are easy. Doing them practically and legally is where it gets tricky.



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posted on October 12th, 2007 at 07:05 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
mods are easy. Doing them practically and legally is where it gets tricky.

:duh this is the page 8 of "how to", "akerman", "where to put it rack is most important" etc
you are make it not easy if want:no:
here is it you buy for $260us is about $290au bolt out bolt in
then what??
is not a-arm




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posted on October 12th, 2007 at 07:47 PM



The Key to what MikeM said though is Legal. Bolt out Bolt in does not mean it is legal for the roads in Aus. I guess even with those new beams you gotta go through all the crap. But I have no experience with this sorta thing.

But I see your point there are stacks of products where perhaps allot of the hard work is already done in the US that can be suitable. Oh yeah and some real nice gear :rolleyes:
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posted on October 13th, 2007 at 01:26 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
the rack and pinion steering into vw it is very easy



So I guess you have already got a blue plated and registered car on Australian roads with a rack and pinion in it and no bump steer?

The rack and pinion setups they use in the offroad race cars in the US are not legal for street use in AUS. If it was that easy we wouldn't have even started this thread.




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posted on October 13th, 2007 at 02:00 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
the rack and pinion steering into vw it is very easy



So I guess you have already got a blue plated and registered car on Australian roads with a rack and pinion in it and no bump steer?

The rack and pinion setups they use in the offroad race cars in the US are not legal for street use in AUS. If it was that easy we wouldn't have even started this thread.

you guess is wrong im not having car in Australia

also did you see it this car:thumb
is registered in Australia on the road yes?

:duh is same position for rack:duh

did you see it you have it also off the road race car in aust for very long with rack

[ Edited on 13-10-2007 by helmut ]

[ Edited on 13-10-2007 by helmut ]

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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 12:02 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
the rack and pinion steering into vw it is very easy



The rack and pinion setups they use in the offroad race cars in the US are not legal for street use in AUS.


for off the road racing in Australia it is here http://www.offroadracing.com.au/  many racers have been using the rack for very long in Australia too not just the U.S.A




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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 12:45 PM



1. A photograph of a car with something fitted to it does not mean it's legal.
2. The R&P boxes fitted to "race cars" are not legal for use on registered vehicles in Australia. They are easy to fit etc...but NOT legal. An "Offroad race car" is NOT a registered vehicle. Isn't this discussion dead in the water yet or are people just going to go around in circles repeating themselves??:td:




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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 07:18 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by MickH
1. A photograph of a car with something fitted to it does not mean it's legal.
2. The R&P boxes fitted to "race cars" are not legal for use on registered vehicles in Australia. They are easy to fit etc...but NOT legal. An "Offroad race car" is NOT a registered vehicle. Isn't this discussion dead in the water yet or are people just going to go around in circlesrepeating themselves??:td:


1. " A photograph of a car with something fitted to it does not mean it's legal."

is also not mean is not legal too !!!!! car has it number plate and sticker tags !! are you say this car is not legal???

2. i am think it is more position akerman angle bump steer...was being talked in this section talk

3. i am not knowing you have car registerd for offroad in Australia you laws are very bad is this mean motor limit for registered offroad vw is same as on the road




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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 07:49 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Buggy Brad
My Iguana Buggy has Rack and pinion going into it, it is in there now for mock up.


is car register for on road or off road

if is on road did you know what r&p it is legal to use it in Australia




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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 08:22 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by helmut
Quote:
Originally posted by Buggy Brad
My Iguana Buggy has Rack and pinion going into it, it is in there now for mock up.


is car register for on road or off road

if is on road did you know what r&p it is legal to use it in Australia


Whatever unit is fitted would require engineer approval to enable it to be legally registered,which Brad's will be . A "registered"car can be used both on and off road so when you see Brads Iguana it is registered as a road vehicle but is very capable as an "offroad" car...
"Offroad race cars" are a different kettle of fish...you also can't drive them down the street....legally:borg: as they are not registered......gets confusing doesn't it....:lol::kiss:




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27.0.00090098SELECT name, template FROM ubb_templates WHERE name IN ('functions_bbcode', 'functions_bbcodeinsert', 'functions_smilieinsert_smilie', 'functions_smilieinsert', 'viewtopic_reply', 'viewtopic_quickreply', 'viewtopic', 'viewtopic_invalid', 'viewtopic_modoptions', 'viewtopic_newpoll', 'viewtopic_newtopic', 'viewtopic_poll_options_view', 'viewtopic_poll_options', 'viewtopic_poll_submitbutton', 'viewtopic_poll', 'viewtopic_post', 'viewtopic_post_email', 'viewtopic_post_site', 'viewtopic_post_icq', 'viewtopic_post_aim', 'viewtopic_post_msn', 'viewtopic_post_yahoo', 'viewtopic_post_search', 'viewtopic_post_profile', 'viewtopic_post_pm', 'viewtopic_post_ip', 'viewtopic_post_repquote', 'viewtopic_post_report', 'viewtopic_post_edit', 'viewtopic_post_delete', 'viewtopic_post_attachmentimage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment', 'viewtopic_post_attach_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_attimg_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_sig', 'viewtopic_post_nosig', 'viewtopic_printable', 'viewtopic_printable_row', 'viewtopic_multipage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment_none', 'viewforum_rules', 'viewtopic_post_blog', 'viewtopic_post_rpg', 'viewforum_mpn_info', 'viewtopic_next_prev_links', 'viewtopic_captcha', 'css', 'error', 'footer', 'footer_querynum', 'footer_load', 'footer_phpsql', 'footer_totaltime', 'header', 'message', 'meta_tags', 'shadow', 'shadow2')
28.0.00043297SELECT t.tid, t.fid, t.subject, t.views, t.replies, t.closed, t.topped, l.uid as lp_uid, l.username as lp_user, l.dateline as lp_dateline, l.pid as lp_pid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid WHERE t.tid = '23861'
29.0.00023293SELECT * FROM ubb_forums WHERE fid='57' AND status='on'
30.0.00019288SELECT code, url FROM ubb_smilies WHERE type = 'smiley'
31.0.00008988SELECT find, replace1 FROM ubb_words
32.0.00017500SELECT id, title, posts, stars, allowavatars, avatarrank FROM ubb_ranks
33.0.00026894UPDATE ubb_threads SET views = views+1 WHERE tid = '23861' LIMIT 1
34.0.00077701SELECT COUNT(pid) FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '23861'
35.0.00978994SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 23861 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline < x.dateline AND t.fid = '57' ORDER BY l.dateline DESC LIMIT 1
36.0.00956011SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 23861 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline > x.dateline AND t.fid = '57' ORDER BY l.dateline ASC LIMIT 1
37.0.00033188SELECT vote_id FROM ubb_vote_desc WHERE topic_id = '23861'
38.0.00067616SELECT pid FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '23861' ORDER BY pid LIMIT 120, 30
39.0.00320816SELECT * FROM ubb_attachments WHERE pid IN('523230', '607903', '608079', '608121', '608152', '608202', '608232', '608389', '608390', '612825', '612827', '614551', '614623', '614691', '614712', '614716', '614722', '614760', '614771', '616187', '616201', '616219', '616230', '616318', '616321', '617555', '617560', '617596', '617603', '617609')
40.0.00402498SELECT p.*, m.*,w.time FROM ubb_posts p LEFT JOIN ubb_members m ON m.username = p.author LEFT JOIN ubb_whosonline w ON p.author = w.username WHERE p.fid = '57' AND p.tid = '23861' ORDER BY p.pid ASC LIMIT 120, 30