| [ Total Views: 135479 | Total Replies: 190 | Thread Id: 27098 ] |
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 Newt
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| posted on January 22nd, 2009 at 09:01 PM |
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No takers on more info for single fuel line for fuel injection?
On a system that circulates fuel pst the injectors, wouldnt that provide the injectors with a measure of cooling?
Also, if you didnt circulate past the injectors (ie only one line) wouldnt the fuel end up boiling at the injector and would this be an issue?
A pondering.
Newt
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marty_08
A.k.a.: Martin McRae
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| posted on July 12th, 2009 at 01:16 PM |
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Hey guys thought this the best place to post my question - not trying to hijack the thread.
I have quite tall manifolds from a set of twin IDF webers and have nearly complete a FI conversion. I have a set of injection perfection throttle
bodies http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/content/view/21/71/ (didn't pay as much as stated thankfully). Great bolt on TBs.
THE PROBLEM: It's for a manx buggy, the tall manifolds are port matched to TBs and to my CB performance wedge-ported heads (so want to keep them +
tall = more torque apparently!!) but i'm having difficulty with throttle linkage.
I have a hex bar linkage and a scat pivot linkage from carby setups. Due to it being a manx buggy there's not much room above the TB because of the
body combined with the tall manifolds = difficulty with crossbar linkage. ALSO because of the tall manifolds the pivot linkage is "too low" and it
doesn't turn the throttle arms in the opposite directions (needs clockwise on left and counter-clockwise on right/drivers side!!!).
What should i do!!!!?!???????? 
This is the last major difficulty i have with my conversion. Is there somewhere in sydney that does custom throttle linkage work like this that i
should be chatting to (Carby services at burwood perhaps)?????? been on efihardware.com.au and they have the gear but not the bracketry to mate to the
new TBs (need to talk with the guys from injection perfection too but thought i'd chat to you all!!!!)
Any help would be greatly appreciated - so close but soooooooo far!!!!. 
Marty
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on August 20th, 2010 at 10:46 AM |
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have you looked at berg linkages?
very similar, where the crossbar setups all come from. as you pull on the throttle the links go lower. just might fit better.
on another note, from what I understand it's not just the length of your manfolds that increase torque but the length of the ram tubes on top as
well.
Other thing worth saying is, an airbox setup makes a lot of difference in terms of torque and drivability. have a look at some of the BTCC engine bays
and see how much airbox there is...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JoN9797qIes/RnqmIl254EI/AAAAAAAAAdw/l0y_Xv-9iNQ/s40...
there is a specific proportion of engine capacity related volume that makes an airbox/filter system work well. From memory it's something the the
vicinity of 16 x CCs of the motor. So many performance motors compromise slightly on length of runner for space reasons but add lots of airbox and
make up the torque. Now I know you're gonna tell me you don't have any room for a big airbox system, but you do have a large empty space in the back
of the manx. I've spent a lot of time thinking about building an airbox system in the back of my J&S. The added bonus is that it brings down the
noise of the engine too. Race mag has had a few stories on this sort of thing. http://www.racemagazine.com.au/
anyhow, a few things to think about there.
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tassupervee
A.k.a.: Knob Jockey
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| posted on March 1st, 2011 at 09:03 PM |
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Ive been using a Adaptronic 420C ecu with a TechEdge 2CO WBO2 controller for some time now.
Not fitted to a Kraut tho.
Im running it in closed loop mode now after months of Adaptive learning mode..
AFAIK, Adaptronic is the only aftermarket ECU that runs FULL TIME adaptive tuning as opposed to temporary "Autotune" functions or many others, or
plain closed loop fuel control in the vast majority of ECU's.
By inputting engine capacity and injector flow rates and a starting point of 85% VE.. A bit of time running around in fast learn mode and eanough load
sites are written to be able to "predict" and smoothen up VE tables by hand.
I ran it around in slow learn mode (fine tune) for a time and let the thing tune itself for some time and hand trimmed the VE tables again to sort out
load sites not visited and rewritten by the ECU.
its a time consuming process to find a good enough and quiet road to be able to strap the engine at a given load site and rpm point when no dyno is
handy!
Im fortunate i have some very long hills and I add the speedboat on its trailer to the back to increase weight for "strapping". Its a bit hard to
hang on to this engine with throttle/braking alone! Brakes burn up pretty quick! Wheelspin can be a problem as well with the trailer and boat
on!!!!!
Finally written my AFR's into the AFR lookup table and the entire show including idle and boost is now handled in closed loop but still using the
WBO2 and controller. I added a further 5% increase to the entire fuel table in event that the WBO2 controller fails and the system reverts to open
loop just as a sort of fail-safe.
It drives like OEM and i cant praise the Adaptronic enough. Australian made as well.
I cannot live without my TechEdge and was well worth the investment if serious about tuning.
Pete.
Induction tuning improvements (accoustics, volume/lengths etc.) and power increases are incremental at best and tend to favour a narrow range of power
and often at the expense of the rev ranges either side.
Tuned length runners and funky airboxes are well and good if your chasing incremental increases over a specific rev range but are almost a woftam for
just about anything everyday.
Hence high end clobber utillises variable length trumpets/and/or variable volume plenums to try and extend the torque peak over a more useful rev
range.
Its so much time and effort for such little everyday gains is all! Looks good on a dyno but in practical use can often result in being actually slower
even tho the figures say higher!
C'est la vie!
L8r
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 12:04 PM |
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Complete EFI Kit
Hi guys,
Great thread on VW EFI. I thought i'd add some info for anyone interested.
We've recently purchased our first VW Beetle, 1972 1600cc SuperBug. After a few months of Cutting rust and welding new pannels its almost ready for
rego. It was sold to us as a 1600 so during the engine rebuild i'd been ordering parts for what turned out to be a 1300cc motor. I've discovered the
30/31 carby jetted for a 1300 runs pretty poor on a 1600 Twin Port so we decided to go EFI to get rid of Flat spots, Fouled plugs, Rough idle, fuel
consumption etc...
After a bit of searching through forums, pricing for a complete ready to go kit would be around the $1500-$2000 kit. Some might consider this
reasonable for the convenience though i was thinking a figure around half that.
Our EFI conversion is currently 90% complete, All fuel hoses plumbed, all hardware fitted, Sensors attached and all done under our initial budget.
I'm expecting the PCB's for the ECU to arrive over the next few days and begin tuning it on the road. With my temporary Breadboarded ECU the car is
running great but the real test will be on the road, hopefully this weekend.
I'm planning on selling a few of these complete kits as soon as our bug is finished as proof of a successfully converted VW. We're thinking around
the $650 mark and that includes everything to convert your VW to EFI - EFI fuel hose, clamps, surge tank, EFI Pump, Injectors, throttle body,
manifold, sensors, ECU with Real-time tuning software, Relays, wiring loom, connectors etc...
Some of the details:
ECU
- Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor & RPM based mapping. 16 x 16 Load table (256 cells) from 600rpm to 5000rpm , Manifold pressure from 30" to
Atmospheric (Boost sensing possible)
- Accelerator Pump Table for enrichment under throttle change
- Throttle Position Sensing
- Engine Temperature Sensing for cold start enrichment
- Idle Air Control Output for stable Idle
- Fuel based Rev Limiter and Deceleration Fuel Cut
- All tables and values are adjustable while the motor is running for quicker & Easier tuning - Load cell tracing.
- O2 Feedback will be added in future revisions of software/Firmware
- Can use Air Flow Meter instead of MAP Sensor
- Leaner mixture under Cruise conditions for greater Fuel economy
I know if i was offered a complete kit for around $650 at the beginning of this project i would have jumped at the opportunity. Now i'm giving you
the option to upgrade to EFI.
Once this setup is complete, i'll be starting on a Coil-Pack Adjustable spark ECU. This should remove of the Distributor to let me put the AC
compressor in it's place.
Let me know if you're interested in buying a kit, or ECU or whatever!
Ben.
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humpty
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 04:13 PM |
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Certainly sounds interesting.... And would definitely like to see and know more.
Look forward to the future updates.
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 matberry
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 05:56 PM |
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650 clams is VERY CHEAP. I'd say increase your rpm limit a little for a wider variety engines.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 06:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
650 clams is VERY CHEAP. I'd say increase your rpm limit a little for a wider variety engines.
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The RPM Range is set by a 'RPM Table' so there is no reason why it couldn't be set to 15 000 RPM+. There is certainly enough CPU overhead for the
coding (Assembly language). I've bench tested the ECU to 8000 RPM and the pulse widths are spot on with enough spare processing for communication
with the PC
I've read that 5000rpm for a stock motor is the upper reliable limit before crank bearings begin to destroy themselves?? Because the crank isn't
balanced? I would think that anything over 4000rpm you would loose a lot of power trying to spin that cooling fan...
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humpty
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 06:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BennVenn
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
650 clams is VERY CHEAP. I'd say increase your rpm limit a little for a wider variety engines.
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The RPM Range is set by a 'RPM Table' so there is no reason why it couldn't be set to 15 000 RPM+. There is certainly enough CPU overhead for the
coding (Assembly language). I've bench tested the ECU to 8000 RPM and the pulse widths are spot on with enough spare processing for communication
with the PC
I've read that 5000rpm for a stock motor is the upper reliable limit before crank bearings begin to destroy themselves?? Because the crank isn't
balanced? I would think that anything over 4000rpm you would loose a lot of power trying to spin that cooling fan...
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Rpm at cruising is still where the optimum cooling will be.... Most peeps that are into stock, stay with stock.... Carb and all.... But most everyone
who would be interested in efi are also performance people.... Hence Matt's call for higher rpm capability.
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 8th, 2012 at 07:36 PM |
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Good point Humpty, What is a performance built motor capable of Revving to? If the customers were to use it for a turbo/supercharged motor you would
probably want more resolution in both the RPM and Load range. My Nissan ECU running my RB25DET uses 256 Load sites (16x16), which is the same as the
Microtech ECU i have in my Van (4G63T) so maybe accuracy isn't that important?
I've designed this ECU so the Load and RPM values can be biased in such a way as to provide maximum accuracy and resolution for particular areas on
the map such as Cruise where you want the AFR spot-on and sacrificing resolution around Idle and WOT where it isn't as important to economy. It can
just as easily be linear or biased for greater/equal accuracy on boost, all depends on the values you load into the different tables.
Thanks for the input guys, Keep the info coming! It will be much easier to add features to the Software/Firmware/Hardware now than to try modify it
all to support extra features later on. Anti-lag? :-)
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 9th, 2012 at 05:18 PM |
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Update!
My Wideband O2 Sensor and Gauge came in the mail today! 3 Things i've learnt from the 4hrs trying to fault find why my AFR's were all over the
place...
1. Due to the narrow exhaust and small length between the cylinder head and exhaust tip, a lot of air gets sucked back into the exhaust after every
power stroke, throwing my AFR's out...
2. Points bouncing at certain RPM's trick the ECU into thinking it's revving higher than it is. Even with software de-bouncing it still adds error
to the rpm counter. I ended up using a Hall-Effect sensor on the base of the ignition coil. Nice neat waveform on the oscilloscope, no ringing, ECU
loves it!
3. I've read VW's prefer to run slightly rich. Mine seems most comfortable (idle) at 14.7 or slightly leaner rather than 14.0 or lower. Anyone know
what their motor is running at idle?
Also, base timing on my RB25DET and 4G63T are around the 15Degree mark at idle. I advanced the Dizzy to around 12degrees and the motor seems much
happier running than it did at 7.5. Other than the fact that Full advance will be too high and the timing curve would be out, is there a reason why VW
decided on 7.5degrees? I would say timing being that far retarded would stress the exhaust valves more than running advanced timing ?
Has anyone been involved in tuning an EFI VW??
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ratty 63
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| posted on May 9th, 2012 at 06:12 PM |
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7.5 degrees was only used as a base setting for simple old-school mechanical advance dissys to ensure that there is not an over advance situation at
high revs with WOT - if you are running an engine management system that can control the spark advance you can use whatever spark settings you want.
The system in my brothers Baja idles at around 24 deg (which smooths out the lumps in the massive cam), but backs off to around 14 deg when you open
the throttle. It runs out to over 47 deg at high speed cruise.
The setting will depend on just how your engine 'likes' advance and your head temps.
R 
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 06:30 PM |
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Help!
Update,
The boards(ECU) finally arrived. After an hour or so of soldering it went into the bug, and the problems began...
i'll give a brief history of this motor:
Not knowing much about vw motors, we purchased this bug with what was told to us a 1600cc Twinport motor. The drive home was interesting. Running on 3
cylinders and would barely make 60km/hr. The next morning we pulled the plugs to see what was going on inside the motor. #3 wasn't running and the
others were oil soaked. We dropped the oil and it could have been the original 1972 oil, thick black with lumps of solidified/coked oil.
After ordering all the parts we needed for the rebuild we begun dis assembly and noticed our new much larger diameter pistons than what were in it.
After a measurement and a google, it turned out that the motor was a 1300 TP. Many people say its as simple as swapping the cylinders and it will run
fine.
There was almost no play in the crank, it turned freely, rods were the same, so we decided to rebuild from the crank up. New valves, springs, sleeves,
seats, the works. A 1600 piston&barrel set. New plugs, gaskets, rubber intake boots. New SVDA distributor.
Now to the problem...
It just won't idle right! The injector spray is nice and atomized, I pressurised the intake manifold to 6psi to look for any leaks around the
heads/throttle body but nothing. Slight hiss past the butterfly valve but that is expected. I have full control over the AFR via my laptop and it
still won't idle below 1400rpm.
It is not a consistent miss either, it will miss randomly on any cylinder. It was beginning to backfire and afterfire too, even on an AFR as rich as
10:1. That normally only occurs on a very lean mix?
I clipped the timing light to the Ignition coil output and there was no skipping of the flash when the engine misses so im confident the coil and
ignition electronics are all ok. I know the Fuel supply is fine, steady fuel rail pressure, and the O2 readings confirm that too.
Valve clearance has been checked and rechecked. As has the timing.
The heat riser tube that runs from the cylinder 4 exhaust up to the manifold and down to the muffler is hot to the touch on the left side and ambient
on the right, Im assuming it is doing its job as the intake runners are warm while the motor is running.
All i can think is the fuel is pooling in the intake manifold, leaning itself out unless there is enough flow from the higher rpm to carry it to the
cylinders. If this is the case, why isn't the heat tube doing its job? While the motor was in pieces i checked if there was airflow through the
piping and it seemed fine.
Would a build-up of carbon in the heat tube prevent it transferring enough heat to the manifold?? Maybe the exhaust muffler is blocked up somehow? Has
anyone had similar troubles?? How hot should the riser tube be? Too hot to touch??
I'm going to head back outside and start removing the intake manifold. Its a bit of a pain because the Alternator has to come off to get it out...
Any help would be MUCH appreciated!
Just a thought, after a long idle to try get it up to temp i gave the throttle a quick push and it gave a puff of sooty exhaust, i guess the O2 meter
wasn't quick enough to catch it, but im thinking fuel is pooling inside the manifold...
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 07:30 PM |
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Hi
Does your motor have a stock exhaust?
If it does the exhaust gas should flow through heat riser tube and out one of the tail pipe holes, if it has extractors it never really gets exhaust
flow it just heats up.
Either way you can do the sizzle test, lick your finger and touch the heat riser, you should get sizzle. The heat riser tubes are very prone to
blocking, the later 1600s had very large tubes to prevent this, then they went to dual heat risers on later cars
Where are your injectors located?
Steve
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 07:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
Does your motor have a stock exhaust?
If it does the exhaust gas should flow through heat riser tube and out one of the tail pipe holes, if it has extractors it never really gets exhaust
flow it just heats up.
Either way you can do the sizzle test, lick your finger and touch the heat riser, you should get sizzle. The heat riser tubes are very prone to
blocking, the later 1600s had very large tubes to prevent this, then they went to dual heat risers on later cars
Where are your injectors located?
Steve
Steve
Steve
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Hi Steve,
Yes, stock exhaust. The heat riser on the left bolts to #4 cylinder and heads alongside the manifold then into the muffler. It isn't hot enough to
sizzle anything. After 10min of running at 1400rpm the left one is warm, the right is cold and the manifold below the throttle plate was forming
condensate. I think it is the source of my troubles...
Just had a read of the manifold removal guide with the motor in the car. What a pain!
I'll pull the exhaust off tomorrow and try clean it out while it's still in the car.
It is throttle body injected, next setup will be multi point so I can remove the manifold and risers.
Thanks for the help,
Ben.
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 07:53 PM |
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Hi Ben
Then you must have a blocked riser, its a very common issue. Have you seen the Mexican EFI setup?
Steve
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 07:56 PM |
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Hi again Ben
You can make it easier to get the manifold off if you undo the cooling fan nut, then leave the fan & shims in housing and lift the alternator out,
the unbolt the alternator stand to get the manifold out.
Steve
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 07:59 PM |
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Yeah, I've seen a few photo's of the setup. I worked it out to be over $2k after you include injectors, fuel lines, pump, wiring, ecu etc..
Our setup has cost around 450 so far including everything. And if it were not for this idling issue we'd be driving it from Melbourne to Sydney this
weekend! There is still time I suppose.
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 08:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi again Ben
You can make it easier to get the manifold off if you undo the cooling fan nut, then leave the fan & shims in housing and lift the alternator out,
the unbolt the alternator stand to get the manifold out.
Steve
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How would I remove the fan nut while the alternator fan is still in the shroud? There isn't enough clearance behind the motor to fit a socket and
wrench in there
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1303Steve
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 08:06 PM |
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Hi Ben
I fitted a Autronic SMC to Kombi motor in a Beetle, big dollars by the time you buy all the other bits let alone the ECU.
I'm seriously thinking about going with the CB kit on my sons bug, about $2000 (edit + freight) for the lot with twin 48 mm throttle bodies.
Steve
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 08:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi Ben
I fitted a Autronic SMC to Kombi motor in a Beetle, big dollars by the time you buy all the other bits let alone the ECU.
I'm seriously thinking about going with the CB kit on my sons bug, about $2000 (edit + freight) for the lot with twin 48 mm throttle bodies.
Steve
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Its a lot of cash for not much hardware. We have the equipment to cast our own manifolds, so once we have a little more time we'll fabricate the twin
throttle bodies, multi point, turbo etc... but for now, throttle body injection, homemade ecu, and a blocked heat riser!
What is the reason you'll be going EFI with your sons bug?
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1303Steve
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| posted on May 16th, 2012 at 09:01 PM |
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Hi
Its got a 1904 in with twin 40 dells. Im collecting parts for 2442 Oxyboxer now.
A Chinese set of 48 mm Webbers is around $1400, I would rather go the extra bit for EFI
Steve
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BennVenn
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| posted on May 17th, 2012 at 06:08 PM |
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Ok, Got the exhaust off and poked an old speedo cable through the heat riser. It was Clear! Gave it a clean out with wire on a drill then noticed the
flange between the riser and exhaust was leaking. replaced the gasket and rebuilt it all. Started it today after putting a new set of plugs in and it
is much better. The manifold sits at 44degrees C, the riser sizzles and the idle mixture is much more stable. I did notice the mixture leaning out
after idling a few minutes and it turns out the IAC valve sits around 4mm above the closed butterfly position. So im guessing the throttle plate gap
is closing up due to icing (12degree air temp at intake) causing the fuel to pool on the butterfly until it reaches about 4mm and starts flowing
through the IAC solenoid bypass, where it restricts the air flow a little and lowers the revs. The IAC does its job and opens a little, pulls more
air, same fuel, leaner mix etc etc...
I adjusted the throttle stop so the IAC solenoid is barely being driven which has opened up the clearance on the butterfly valve and all is well.
Thinking about routing some of the motors heated air up to the intake. Atleast until summer arrives...
Thanks Steve for pointing me in the right direction.
Do you know how much fuel your stock carbies accelerator pump would add on a single stroke from idle to WOT? I thought i saw it in the manual
somewhere but cant seem to find the exact figure
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Huffypilot
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| posted on October 18th, 2012 at 05:51 PM |
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I can see this thread is a little old but still an interesting read.
BennVenn can you tell me which part of Australia your in ? Im building a Manx and interested to learn if I might have icing issues also. It will run
twin 36 IDF's while I gather the remaining injection parts.
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BennVenn
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| posted on June 20th, 2013 at 04:19 PM |
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One year later and it's only starting to come together now... Work has kept me busy. I'm writing a sort of build log on my webpage. Lots of pics,
step by step stuff. Check it out if you're thinking of going EFI on your VW
http://www.bennvenn.com/Frankie.html
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humpty
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| posted on June 22nd, 2013 at 03:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BennVenn
One year later and it's only starting to come together now... Work has kept me busy. I'm writing a sort of build log on my webpage. Lots of pics,
step by step stuff. Check it out if you're thinking of going EFI on your VW
http://www.bennvenn.com/Frankie.html
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Very cool so far... Clearly there is some skills being used here... Your development of the ECU is most interesting...
Props to you BennVenn.
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BennVenn
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| posted on June 22nd, 2013 at 06:33 PM |
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Cheers Humpty!
I've tried to keep it relatively non technical. This is my first build log so any suggestions are welcome!
-Ben
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BennVenn
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| posted on July 6th, 2013 at 03:57 PM |
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Done!
Ok, The distributor-less spark system is complete and running! Need to add the code for the MAP sensing, should only take an hour or so. There are
heaps of ECU's left over from the minimum order from the Fab house so If you're a DIY'er and want to get rid of your Distributor and replace it
with a fully programmable ECU - for low $$$'s come and check it out.
Next up is getting the injection hardware sorted... And then the turbo!
http://www.bennvenn.com/Brain.html
Ben.
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BennVenn
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| posted on August 4th, 2013 at 12:50 PM |
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Hello everyone!
If anyone has a twinport head or manifold easily accessible could they post the port dimensions? After the port sizing and stud location etc...
I'm stuck out at sea with work until early December and with all this spare time I want to make up some injected manifold patterns to cast up when I
get home.
I think single point injection is useless without a heated manifold. Might as well do it right and go multipoint.
Thanks guys
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BennVenn
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| posted on October 26th, 2013 at 07:44 PM |
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New Multipoint FI Twinport Manifolds
G'day,
Im back in Aus for a couple of weeks. I thought I'd get stuck into the new multipoint manifolds. Just about ready to be cast. Check out the latest at
http://www.bennvenn.com/Casting.html
-Ben
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