| [ Total Views: 1198 | Total Replies: 22 | Thread Id: 3237 ] |
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 vwrallycar
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| posted on January 21st, 2003 at 08:48 PM |
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subaru or type 4
can i please have everyones thoughts on whether a type 4 conversion or subaru conversion for my beetle would be better and why/why not?
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reub
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| posted on January 21st, 2003 at 09:21 PM |
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type 1 yuk, type 4 don't know, subaru whoo hoo!!!!
Sorry, not much help. How much have you got to spend and what are your intentions?
Reub
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 Bizarre
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| posted on January 21st, 2003 at 09:34 PM |
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Rally
depends on the budget and how fast you want to go.
You want to go faster ythan the 1916?
then go sube
you want to do 130km/hr all day and have a big bank balance - T4
You want fast and cheap - T1
but then you had a 1916. You want more 2.3L plus - now that is in the T4 $$ area
Futue te ipsum!!!
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amazer
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| posted on January 21st, 2003 at 11:20 PM |
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The type 1 engine fits really well in a type 1. The other 2 options are too heavy.
Type 4 too much hassle converting upright. Subaru... waaaaay too much hassle.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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vdub2c
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 01:24 AM |
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not wanting to tread on toes... BUT...
i don't like type 1 motors cos of the high maintenance... arguably they arn't huge maintenance, but more than a modern car.
a 1.8L turbo subaru motor is EFI, controlled by a standard computer or aftermarket EMS computer, requires no retuning after a hard driving session.
just put her to rest, start her up again in the morning and the computer takes car of the rest. to buy the engine will cost you about $1500 with
computer, conversion plates another $1000 (being generous - have been quoted $750) radiator ($50 from a wrecker any radiator will do...) fabricate
pipes to go from engine to radiator ($$ depends on if you can heat and bend...) the 1.8L turbo is only slightly bigger width way than a type 1 and
(i've been told) weighs less than a decked out race 1916 type 1 engine. L bug gearbox for a bit more strength and you're set. you obviously
need to cut the room in the rear and the front for the radiator, but it's not as big a job as you may think. then for extra modding ($5000 for an
aftermarket fully customisable computer installed, dynoed etc) k&n air filter, turbo leak for that extra boost... and already you're beating
anything you're coming up against. so for $7500 you have a RELIABLE EFI turbo engine.
I'm not saying that's better than type 4 or type 1, but i'm just telling you what's involved.. and if you want low maintenance and
no more hassles, that's prolly the way to go. that's the way i'd go.
just my opinion, i know alot of people will say t4 and t1 engines arn't high maintenance... but think in terms of a t1 or t4 motor, or a modern
efi engine.... not just t1 and t4.
just my 2 cents, and a general way ofgoing about Subaru.
sorry about the long post.
yianni.
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kombi_kid
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 06:50 AM |
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that would be the EA82T motor u can pick them up for around 1000-1500 u dont need to run and intercooler for the turbo (obviously if u did it would go
harder) radiator can be mounted where the spare wheel goes (putting louvers in ur bonnet and running 2 12" thermos
should bolt straight in depending on what year model beetle you have they only have about 130hp so as stated a L bug or superbug box can handle 150hp
(treat it nicely!) then if ur smart enough make an adaptor plate and whetever else like WES done!!!
it will add up to heaps if you cant do much work but if u can do most there ur setup for aeround $4000.
cheers
rhys
it aint just cool its aircool'd
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 09:02 AM |
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If maintenance is the issue, why not consider the same conversion Wes has just done? (Mazda 2.5 V6 200Hp)
Kruizin Kol
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 09:46 AM |
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Horses for courses really.
If you dont have huge $$$ or dont want bigger than 2.1 L, go T1. Or if you want to be "faithful" or original or whatever.
If you want the best HP an aircooled engine can give you, go with a nice T4 set up. They are more expensive than a T1, but dont believe that they are
hard to convert to upright. I've done it myself in my back shed, and there is no rocket science involved. Use one of the various kits around and
its pretty simple.
If you want a rocket ship, go the Subaru of one form or another. The EJ20T IS heavier than the EA82, which in turn is heavier than the VW engines. But
then again, a T4 engine is heavier than a T1 is too. People may say Yuk to a subaru conversion, but thats generally personal preferance. None of them
will be able to deny the fact that a subaru conversion with 200hp will be far cheaper and more reliable than either of the VW engines making 200hp.
Having said all that I run an 1835 T1. But I wish I could have a subaru.....
Or think outside the square - do a 13B rotary conversion, with a single downdraft weber - no injections hassles, horsepower aplenty, unique engine
note ?
For one, I'd like to see if the Wes V6 special would fit under a decklid.....
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vdub2c
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 posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 11:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by KruizinKombi
If maintenance is the issue, why not consider the same conversion Wes has just done? (Mazda 2.5 V6 200Hp)
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in a baja, that canbe done because of ample space.. but if you want something to fit nicely in the bugs engine bay without HUGE mods... go a little
suby.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 12:08 PM |
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The V6 would fit in the engine bay, just not under the decklid. Unless you had an ugly whale tail deck lid, then maybe....
There is nothing quite like jumping in the car, turning the key and have it start perfectly first time every time, no touching the throttle just the
right amount or anything.
Of course you also have the option of AC and decent heating....
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 01:01 PM |
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yeah if u want a modern engine go Subie. U will have to cut the body i think to make way for the heads, and the sump is pretty low, it can be
modified. A subie motor has a lot less maintainence than a type 1 or type 4.
a type 4 is no more expensive than a type 1 of the same quality and same displacement. A type 4 can put out 200+ HP reliably and still be very
streetable.
The attraction of an EJ20T is their used availability, they're cheap. When they become less common and a lot of them reach the end of their
useful lives, and they won't be so cheap and reliable anymore.
The subie option is probably better if u compare power & price. Although if ur a purist and can only go with aircooled, go type 4 |
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kombi_kid
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 01:26 PM |
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hey
stay away from rotaries if want a maintance free motor!!! there are plenty of engines to look out obviously subiesn are common!!
but if u go to the Ej20T then recommend a 2L kombi box to with stand it which can end up more!!
i dont know how u would get a type 4 at 200HP and still being a street driveable/reliable!!!!!
and type 4 parts cost heaps!!!
cheers
rhys
while where talking bout motor conversions do ford motors spin the right direction???
it aint just cool its aircool'd
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vwrallycar
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 03:11 PM |
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thank you everyone for your valued opinions
yeah the 1916 doesnt have the power i was EXPECTING so have been thinking type 4 then turbo or subi turbo:thumb
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vdub2c
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 03:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Che Castro
The attraction of an EJ20T is their used availability, they're cheap. When they become less common and a lot of them reach the end of their
useful lives, and they won't be so cheap and reliable anymore.
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just a quickie, i totally agree with what you're saying. In my opinion, don't go for an EJ20T in a bug, unless you want massive mods. an
EA82T (1985 subaru 1.8L turbo from a subaru vortex - yes those ugly looking wedge type cars) requires little to no cutting of the engine bay, it has a
nice sounds - like a beefy bug engine - plus a turbo. no mods have to be made to brakes, or gearbox strenght, although i don't suggest dropping
the clutch all that much in it at high revs... cos if the gearbox don't blow, you'll sh1t yourself anyways.
but i suggest EA82, ok they are from 1985, but they are still going strong... FLAT4 baby yeah!
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 05:52 PM |
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U can get a reliable 200HP from a type 4, that is streetable like nothing else. There is a guy called Joe who has a 2.8L in his L bug, will be
dyno'd on the 2nd feb . It will break traction when u floor it in 4th gear at about 1800 rpm. if that isnt streetable i dont know what is. It
will do burnouts uphill up to 3rd gear.
Check out
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com
to get a big type 4 to last would probably need nikasil cylinders which cost about $5000 for a complete set... its not impossible, just expensive
A type 4 build is expensive budget about 10-15k for a 2.3-2.7L . It will last for quite a while, and prices are about the same as a type 1 when u
compare parts of equal quality. i.e. there is heaps of low quality junk available for a type 1.
There is slightly less maintainence than an EJ20t but only a little. how difficult is it to adjust valves and change oil etc every 3000 miles?
An EJ20T sounds great, and so does a hot type 4. Although aesthetically, i think there is little that beats a type 4 with a 911 shroud 
Don't bother going turbo on a type 4 unless u have lots and lots of money, and then some more. Better to go EJ20T if ur after some forced
induction.
[Edited on 22-1-2003 by Che Castro]
Jon
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 06:09 PM |
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Other options, and aircooled:
Corvair flat 6
Porsche 2.7 litre flat 6
Either one is probably cheaper than a 'built' type 4
Kruizin Kol
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 22nd, 2003 at 07:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Che Castro
a type 4 is no more expensive than a type 1 of the same quality and same displacement.
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I can assure you a type 4 is way more expensive than a type 1. I investigated all the prices and that is why I went for the V6, definitely the
cheapest option for me
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 04:33 PM |
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for the shortblock, the cost is the same if quality and displacement are also the same between a type 1 and type 4. You will have to pay more for a
upright cooling kit and exhaust, but a 2.3 type 4 will go for 100 000miles + but a type 1 2.3 wont without more maintainence. So in the end really
a type 4 is probaly cheaper in the long run.
price up a porsche flat 6 rebuild in stock form...
corvair... how many were there in this country?
[Edited on 23-1-2003 by Che Castro]
Jon
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 04:56 PM |
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If you look up the price of virtually any standard vw engine part for a type 1 and type 4, the type 4 part will be more expensive. Some type 4 parts
are 3 times *or more) more expensive than the type 1 part, when it is essentially exactly the same part just a slightly different size.
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amazer
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| posted on January 23rd, 2003 at 05:00 PM |
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porsche and corvair are too slow anyway.
I once swapped a 2l type 4 with webers for a 2.7. The guy wanted more power. I then swapped the 2.7 for my EFI.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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danzin
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| posted on January 24th, 2003 at 09:50 AM |
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"There is slightly less maintainence than an EJ20t but only a little. how difficult is it to adjust valves and change oil etc every 3000
miles?"
Even 'jake' aka ‘air-cooled technology’ couldn't make that statement without his fingers crossed!
The ej20 I'm running in my bus, sat in a shed for two years...then in another for a few months and then into my bus....once it was installed,
guess how much fiddling and tweaking I did on the ej20 once it started?
That’s right....zero....there's no dizzy, no timing to adjust, no valves to adjust, no massive carbs to adjust, no linkages to adjust, no
specialized cooling to adjust, no nothing...you turn the key...it starts...dosen’t matter if it's hot, cold, wet, dry or probably even upside
down...
The type1 and 4 have their place! no argument! I'm not saying "everyone convert" The type 1 and 4's belong in classic vw's
like the kg's, spit's, ovals etc..they wouldn't be the same with anything else!
But, you should maybe start getting realistic when comparing them to late model engines! chalk and cheese buddy.
[Edited on 24-1-2003 by danzin] |
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amazer
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| posted on January 24th, 2003 at 01:06 PM |
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my type 4 turbo with haltech EFI needs none of that either.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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type3_turbo
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 08:17 PM |
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The original air cooled engines are just as reliable and easy to start as the modern replacments (subes stc..) when the same technology is applied. I
have a haltech e6k installed on my recently turboed type 3. It starts like a champ every time and idles well since I have installed idle control. I
figured, since my skills are in engine management and not chopping up the body of a car, I would forgo that hassle and use the standard engine (albeit
modfified) with modern fuel and ignition control. By no means am I going to say that my setup will produce the power of the alternatives but
i'll have fun trying.:bounce
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Bizarre
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 08:20 PM |
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hmmm sounds intersting.
You got more info on this beast/beauty?
For about a story in Members rides.
Futue te ipsum!!!
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Baja Wes
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| posted on January 26th, 2003 at 08:24 PM |
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EFI on a beetle motor is great, but I found it was cheaper to buy and install an EFI jap motor than it was to put EFI on a beetle motor.
Do you mind telling us how much your EFI install cost (not trying to be rude, just interested to see)?
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Che Castro
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| posted on January 27th, 2003 at 10:02 AM |
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well compare how much it would cost to do a 2276 properly and a 2270 type 4 properly (about 10k), factor in how long it will probably last (2270
probably 100 000miles) and the type 4 comes out on top.
But i definitely agree, its a lot cheaper to put in a jap motor, and u get a modern engine! with EFI, DOHC, even VVT in some cases and variable
length manifolds etc. Its much more power for much less money.
The flipside is of course, u do get used engines which could have been abused, not serviced etc. Even though a modern jap engine will last ove 200
000 miles, in the next few years good engines will be increasingly harder to find and people will have to start either rebuilding them or put in newer
engines. And that is assuming the current situation (cheap imports from japan) doesnt change.
Anyway horses for courses
Jon
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