| [ Total Views: 2497 | Total Replies: 12 | Thread Id: 36694 ] |
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 type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
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| posted on March 23rd, 2005 at 04:16 PM |
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kombi starter motor question
How's everyone doing?
Still ironing out a few bugs in the '76 camper I recently bought. Now the starter solenoid is doing strange things:
starter cranks fine - rarely
starter cranks slowly - sometimes
engages motor but won't throw drive onto flywheel - a fair bit
does nothing but dims the dash warning lights considerably - most of the time! Usually it will start eventually.
Seems like a solenoid problem.
I am going to pull the starter out when i have a chance but am looking for advice to help save as much $$ as I can and do most of the work myself.
So...is it likely that I'll be able to free up the solenoid and reuse it, or do I need a new one. How much should one pay for a solenoid (just the
part)?
I don't think it's a battery problem, however the NRMA dude that got me going the other day whacked his jumper cables on and it cranked perfectly 3
times. Maybe that extra juice gave the solenoid enough oomph to engage it correctly?
Thanks for your comments! 
Toby
P.S. There is a starter relay fitted too
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 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
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Mad fabricator, paint and body
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| posted on March 23rd, 2005 at 04:33 PM |
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The battery terminal or the cable end lugs may be corroded. That includes the earth.
When they get warm the resistance increases. The NRMA dude may have given the juice that overcame the resistance of the lead.
Also do you have an earth strap from motor/ gearbox to body? this could also be corroded or loose.
It would cost nothing to check all the ends of these high amperage cables.
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vw54
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| posted on March 23rd, 2005 at 04:43 PM |
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Yep sounds like an earthing problem...
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~air fooled~
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on March 24th, 2005 at 10:13 AM |
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yep, clean up all wiring to the battery and body...
terminals on battery
terminals on battery cables
cable ends that go into terminals
point where negative cable terminal mounts to body and termianl itself
earth lead mounting points on gearbox and suspension ( this is the strap coming from the left hand front of the gearbox when you are standing at back
of the car looking to the front) you need to be under the kombi of course too!
these were the exact problems with my kombi, dirty and corroded terminals and mounting points, especially where the negative battery cable terminal
mounts to the body..
everything dies baby, thats a fact..
maybe everything that dies one day comes back..
put your make up on and your hair up pretty..
and meet me tonight in Atlantic city..
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mnsKmobi
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| posted on March 24th, 2005 at 10:53 AM |
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While you're doing electrical stuff, crack open your fuse box (under dash, passenger's side) and throw away any old/suspect fuses! I just spent ages
tracking down an electrical problem caused by a fuse that had broken but was still touching. Enough current was getting through to read 12v at the
globe but not enough to light it! When I pulled out the rest of the old fuses another one fell apart! Before you put in the new fuses, clean the fuse
box contacts with some fine sandpaper.
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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 posted on March 24th, 2005 at 11:31 AM |
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Starter motor problems....***
Hi Toby,
Yes, best to make sure all Electrical connections are Like NEW
so the battery leads need to taken off the chassis and the metal cleaned underneath... a small wire brush on a drill is good for this... also the
battery lead on the starter motor..
I always place an extra earth lead from the other end of the earth strap bolt - under the chassis - to the gearbox...
the new earth strap has a hole in each end....
You need to replace the earth strap bolt with a longer one
then put the new earth lead on with a nut & flat washer.. the metal under the straps need to be polished like new....
A HUGE Current flows to the starter motor & Solenoid....
Have You tried a large screwdriver across the terminals of the solenoid... this will tell You if the solenoid is Faulty or Not
You will get sparks.... I hate doing this
car in Neutral... be careful as You have to lay under the car..
If the starter motor spins normally... the solenoid is faulty..
Have You checked to see if the bushing in the bellhousing is not badly worn.... or needs a bit of Lithium based Moly grease.... {Big W] If its worn,
it puts more pressure on the pinion & ring gear....
The starter motor probably started OK with the NRMA because of their large capacity batteries etc...
After You have fixed this problem..... All the electrical connections need to be in "as new" condition... a Very small wire brush on small engraver
tool is good for this...
or emery or wet & dry paper etc.... fuses need to be nice & clean too... on the ends... & take any melted fuses out & throw them
away... the new plastic type of fuses do melt...
If all electrical connections including fuse box - round hole where fuse sits - need to be polished like they were when they left the factory...
I hope this is some help...
Lee Noonan
http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
Insano Dub Head
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| posted on March 24th, 2005 at 06:16 PM |
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I appreciate all the help - thanks everyone who has posted replies.
Well from the general advice from you guys it sounds like an earthing problem or at least a current flow problem to the starter. I am so motivated by
all this that I'm going to have a crack at it now! It's getting dark but I have a big floodlight out back and an inspection lamp for underneath the
car so there's really no excuse.
Lee, I have been forced to start the engine a few times by bridging the B+ on the starter to the solenoid while under the car using the big
screwdriver with the ignition on (IN NEUTRAL!) I can't remember all the outcomes but there were still problems as I recall. In the dark the sparks
are pretty cool even if starting my car this way isn't! :duh
Anyway I'll clean all the relevant terminals and see if this makes the difference. I'll use a cordless with wire brush attachments.
Will also slow charge the cranking battery overnight.
Will let u all know how it goes!
Cheers!
Toby
P.S. When I start the car the battery light stays on until the motor is first revved then fine. I got 13.5 volts at idle with a multimeter. Maybe
charging syetem would benefit from a good clean of all connections!
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
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| posted on March 24th, 2005 at 08:42 PM |
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Hi Toby,
13.5V isn't that good, but My light also stays on sometimes when first started... and it has an alternator ....
Its always been a common thing on VWs though....
It does look like the solenoid is the culprit.... Maybe...
I am amazed at how bright the lights on My beetle are...
but then everything is New... Wires, Bolts, lights etc...
Just like when it was made....
I cleaned the fusebox in My Sons beetle a month ago with a small wire brush on an engraving tool.... also did the fuses..
there was some contamination on the ends of the fuses..
and they were the new plastic fuses... would only be a year or so old... I also bent the fuse holders to get more tension on the fuses... the fuses
shouldn't get hot even when being used... I've always hated shorting out the solenoid
a local fellow many years ago bought a New expensive large horsepower tractor, the solenoid failed, so He continued to use it , starting it with a
large screwdriver....
One day it was still in gear.... Luckily it didn't run over him, but crashed thru a hay shed and continued on until it came to His house.... It
stopped after demolishing 2 bedrooms in the House..... He then got the solenoid fixed....
Lee
http://community.webshots.com/user/vw68autobug
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
Insano Dub Head
in the garage...
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| posted on March 25th, 2005 at 11:49 AM |
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Ok, I've cleaned up all the terminals except for the alternator output terminal. Looks like a pain to get to, and won't be directly related to my
prob. I still have starting issues.
The van has a dual batteries and the main battery doesn't seem to be holding it's charge. I have a spare that's on charge now and will be ready a
bit later.
The auxiliary battery is isolated via a large metal can type relay which is energized when the ignition is switched on, effectively connecting both
batteries in parallel.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if the main battery was charged sufficiently then the car should start without the auxiliary battery even connected?
Anyhow, I'm back out to tinker away a bit more. Not looking forward to removing the starter - that top bolt looks like a bastard to get to!
Regards,
Toby
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
Insano Dub Head
in the garage...
Posts: 796
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Registered: February 2nd, 2005
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| posted on March 25th, 2005 at 01:22 PM |
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nailed it at last!
FIXED!!!!!! :thumb
Should have realised b4...the solenoid that engages the second battery was being powered by the main battery, which if flat will not have enough to
engage its coil and connect the second battery. I changed the main one and it's working now!
What else I did was to fit a 30A relay before the battery solenoid and run power to that solenoid coil from the second battery via the relay. I
figured the current required to energise the coil of the small relay I fitted would be a lot less than the several amps of juice that mother of a
solenoid draws. Later I might also fit a switch up front so I can power the relay coil directly from the second battery so that even if the main is
completely dead I'm still getting it started!
Cleaning all the connections would have helped too and is good peace of mind.
It's great to be back in business!
Toby
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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 posted on March 25th, 2005 at 03:53 PM |
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Great News Toby..************Dual Batteries***
Hi Toby,
thats great news.... I used to run two batteries in a Van I had a few years ago... It was just connected up to the other battery when the ignition was
on, via a relay... so if the other battery went dead for any reason...
as soon as I turned the key the other battery was connected, and it was also used for the ignition & to start the engine....
electrics can muddle the best brains... IMHO
Cheers Toby
Lee
http://community.webshots.com/user/vwautobug
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
Insano Dub Head
in the garage...
Posts: 796
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| posted on March 25th, 2005 at 04:02 PM |
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Yep! That's the same setup as I've got.
Pretty close call for that guy with the tractor! Once a big diesel starts moving it's hard to stop it.
Some PO has fitted an ignition relay with a diode across the start circuit and the ignition circuit to supply volts to the coil when the key is turned
to start. This whole @#$$%^$ setup is the root of my problems I think. grrrrrr!!
Cheers!
Toby
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
Aircooled Master
Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138% - YIKES --
Posts: 11654
Threads: 449
Registered: August 31st, 2002
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Location: SCONE in UPPER HUNTER VALLEY NSW
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| posted on March 25th, 2005 at 04:11 PM |
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**ignition & DIODES****
I've been thinking of things like that for years...
I've even bought the diodes.....
But, I only have a relay circuit for the starer motor...
and the electromagnetic valve for the auto so far....
I have 4 or 5 spare installed in the dash but not hooked up to anything as yet... excepting the driving lights....
I'd like to do the wipers.. too... so the switches will last forever....
Cheers
Lee
[Edited on 25-3-2005 by 68AutoBug]
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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