Subject: How's handling with CB Dropped Spindles for Link pin - Drums
65busser
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posted on August 27th, 2005 at 10:00 PM
How's handling with CB Dropped Spindles for Link pin - Drums
Just read through some previous threads on the above and was wondering... Is it fair to say the adjustable beam on my 59 bug would promote more
understear than havind dropped spindles alone on a normal beam?
...And, would having dropped spindles instead of the adjusters mean I could run up to 165's without fear of rubbing?
I have 135's and adjusters now but have too much understeer for my likings, would dropped spindles on a standard beam and 135's make a noticable
change to the degree of understeer? I imagine 135's wouldn't give as much grip as 165's.
Know what I mean?nn[ Edited on 27-8-2005 by 65busser ]nn[ Edited on 28-8-2005 by 65busser ]
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posted on August 28th, 2005 at 08:20 PM
raise the car up 2 inches and drive it...... thats how it, in theory, should feel with Dropped spindles yet retain the look of 2 inches lower
Adam
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pete wood
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posted on August 29th, 2005 at 03:53 PM
Unless I am mistaken, L/P beams don't change any of their geometry except for castor as they get lower. Some of the steering is a bit different but
what it really causes is worse castor the lower you go. Bad castor causes the car to handle like a tram and follow ruts in the road, my old lowered 67
beetle did this. However this is a way to fix this. Bugpack castor shims that you put between the lower torsion tube and the panhead. This fixes it.
The thing you really loose with lowering is suspension movement. Dropped spindles give you that back while still lowering the car.
BTW, all beetles understeer, and porsches too. L/P cars are worse coz the camber is neutral, or in some cases slightly positive. Not only that, but as
the wheel moves up it stays that way. Most other cars get increasing negative camber as the suspension compresses. The way to fix it on ya beetle is
to totally stiffen the back of the car and have insane power so you can drift round corners. Then the front grips fine.
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posted on August 29th, 2005 at 06:04 PM
You can also work in a little more camber with some shim juggling, but be careful with this, as the steering will get heavier and suspension can bind
up if you go too far with the camber! Caster shims should be added in any case (one or two sets, depending on how low you go)...It was even done by
the factory way back in the day, on factory rally cars. It was an option of people who complained about the wind pushing the car around... If you
really drive your LP bug hard and it is very low to boot, you'll have to learn to 'drive around' the phenomenon of understeer... It can be done,
even with a stock engine. Be warned...the wider the rear tyre the harder it is to do.
The way I get around it in my car is to drop the rear tyre pressure and up the front....In autokana events on bitumen, I found this worked best for me
with the small capacity engine I have. What happened here, I believe, is the rear of the car moved about more, and so became more 'chuckable'. This
method is not reccommended for regular street driving!
My car has NO drop spindles, SWAY-A-WAY adjusters, standard oil shocks on the front and GR2's on the back and lowered 2 splines in the back. I also
found that when I fitted a WHITELINE front swaybar, it understeered more in slow corners! You will also find that tyre sizes and widths make a huge
difference too...I had 195/50-15 (6" rim) on the front and 215/60-15's (7" rim) on the back. I think the profile on the front made the problem
worse. The rear tyre 'moved' more on the rims, more side wall = more give. I found when I ran 135's on the front (on stock rims) and 165's on the
rear, the car was way more 'chuckable', and with around 100hp (est) it was a blast to throw, but crazy hard to stop! But I reckon that was a drum
brake issue...My current car will have 145/65-15 Conty's in the front and 4 wheel disc brakes... A much better tyre by all standards, than the 135
Michy I used years ago.
That said...You may run into tyre clearnace issues with the drop spindles/stock width beam and 165 tyres and stock rims....Most people have ended up a
narrowed beam (I have) to get around that problem. What offset (ET) rims you gonna run? I think early Kombi 15" rims have a better offset, though not
too sure. But you could possibly get your stock rims modified to suit.
Which ever way you go, you can make it work, you just need to do your homework?
I have a 2" narrowed beam with adjusters, no drop spindles (maybe later), one set of castershims, a bumpsteer kit, oil shocks on the front, upgraded
swaybar, 205 PCD disc brakes and either 4.5 BRM's or ERCO's (I haven't decided on that one yet!). Should give me plenty of tyre clearnace and ride
fairly well. And if I want too, I can put on drop spindles and not have any problems with clearance.
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posted on August 29th, 2005 at 10:30 PM
Pete, Humpty, that's great information. I took it out for a thrash yesterday, (36hp style), and I think it's prob 1959 steering technology that I
need to come to terms with.
Wheels are gen lemmerz 356 4.5", so I doubt they'd be an issue. I've added castor shims and they made a huge difference.
I reckon the front shocks might be contributing. If they were new, I imagine I would get more stability in the front end. Last time I investigated
front shocks, I came to the conclusion that I should use standard units with the adjustable beam. Any thoughts?
Thanks again guys.
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posted on August 29th, 2005 at 11:42 PM
If you run drop spindles with what you have there, you will have clearnace issues...Looks way close as it is! A good quality oil shock will be the go
for a good ride v reasonable cost. Have you fitted a sway bar? A stock one will make some difference...An aftermarket one will make a huge difference!
Do you actually experience understeer or does it just feel a little vague? What tyre pressures you running? 18-20psi in the front is all you
need....25-28psi in the back. KP adjusted? Both adjusters set correctly (ie: NOT against each other)? Bumpsteer present?
Its a bit of a jugglling act, but they can be mad to handle.
For proof...Check out the downloads of my bug in action on my www.
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posted on August 30th, 2005 at 11:32 PM
Steering is nice and tight. Everything is new under there. Except shockers. It understeers if I go a bit too hard into a 90' corner. e.g. turning at
an intersection. Reasonable speeds not an issue.
Tyre pressures I haven't checked. Derr!
Hear what you're saying though. It's a case of getting the recipe right. Sway bar's a good idea. Who does the a'market bars Simon?
Hey, thanks for the time you've taken.
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posted on August 30th, 2005 at 11:53 PM
No problem 65busser, its my pleasure.
Everyone has something different to say about this, but this is what I experienced in my car....
I used a Whiteline swaybar, they make a good basic swaybar kit for the LP Bug...The company are in Sydney I think. Its not adjustable and it does hang
a little low on very low cars, but was never an issue with my car.
Be warned though...A swaybar may aggrevate the problem at low speed! VDubs like to be pushed hard through corners....Like most cars, they have been
designed to understeer...its safer. But you can promote oversteer, the trick is balancing it!
What I have found is tyre quality makes a huge difference in the way it handles...Most tyres are built for far heavier cars, so sidewall design, air
pressures and compounds generally are heavy duty...not needed on a lightweight bug... Look for softer compound tyres... I haven't had much luck with
high sylica compounds tyres...They seem to be too 'slippery'! I have some very good tyres on my Squareback right now, they're Dunlop Formula but
these tyre are HiPo jobs on 17" rims...Not good for your app, but the point is....You may have to look around.
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posted on August 31st, 2005 at 07:03 AM
Got a question with the narrowed beam,
I know you have to adjust the pitman arm, and the tie rod lengths, but has anyone else had problems fitting their steering damper? I am just wondering
if I need to change the angle of the 'bend' at the pitman arm end?
Also, is the Whiteman Swaybar an afetrmarket? I can't find anything for a narrowed beam at the moment.
