| [ Total Views: 2341 | Total Replies: 58 | Thread Id: 45183 ] |
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 bajachris88
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 posted on October 24th, 2005 at 10:30 PM |
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The debate: what is better. Supercharged or turbocharged?
Hey all, had used the search, but didn't come up with any clear answers, but i have been looking into superchargers over the net, trying to work out
why many people around don't talk about them much and seem to go turbo.
But its confusing. On one web site, it was stating the humble supercharger gives boost all the way through the revs, while turbo only gives boost
mainly in the high revs (cause of the high flow of exhaust created by teh faster more rev engine).
Yet, some say that turbo is better, because having the supercharger connected to the engine slows down the engine as the engine needs to turn the
superchargers turbine connected to the belts. Others also say turbo puts pressure on the exhaust as it acts as an obstacle slowing down the exhaust
from exiting the engine as it has to get around it.
So from all these ups and downs, i'm lost in wonder of really, what the hell would be the best to use. I was thinking supercharger, but then turbo,
back to supercharger and now and huh? wtf? which one? Lol
So from all u guys experience, or whoeva else has questions on it, or comments/recommendations/ideas or arguments/inputs into this topic/debate or
wateva u wanna call it, please by all means, do. Thanx all.:thumb
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Edmond
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 12:20 AM |
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There's different types of SC's and different types of turbos. Depends on your needs as to what setup you should get.
The original style SC's (I think called hurst?) that look like a factory sticking out of your V8's bonnet provide boost (sucking extra fuel) all the
way through the revs. I think the new screw types have the same effect but are more efficient (more boost vs engine load).
Turbos do have a progressive boost, but you can choose the turbo to suit your rev application. They can be good for daily drivers, putting around and
you get very little boost, but let it rev and get your power! You could probably find a small turbo which would give you lower rev boost.
There are also centrifugal SC's which are still engine driven but behave more like turbo's, and seem to offer best of both worlds.
It all depends on what the car is for.
Unless I'm still living in the past, you wont see top fuel dragsters running turbos, doing the shopping or paying there own fuel bill 
anyone else, please correct if I'm wrong or obsolete 
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dangerous
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 06:30 AM |
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I would agree with Edmond.
For street use and for racing.
There are always exceptions and applications that will be more
suited to one or other.
For all out dragracing, I have found the superchargers that
I used, were more forgiving to driver error, like taking
off at low revs or short shifting, than would a
same boost turbo be.
BUT! Boost for boost the turbo will make more power provided the intake temps are controlled.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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 vw54
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 07:14 AM |
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How LONG is a piece of string
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VDubya
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 09:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
How LONG is a piece of string
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The roll I bought yesterday is 25 metres.
I was going to join the Democrats to keep the bastards honest, but joined the forum instead.
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Che Castro
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 09:18 AM |
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The type that a lot of V8's use is called a Roots style supercharger. They kind of work like a gear oil pump (like on the VW) except they pump air.
Then there are twin screw/lysholm superchargers which are much more efficient than a roots style, they use these on some high end mercs, the Mazda
Eunos 800M. Whatever people tell you,superchargers and turbochargers both take energy from the engine - it takes a fair bit to compress air.
Anyway I could go into more detail but I would just be parroting. BTW Google is your FRIEND
http://www.coloradocobras.com/whipple/superchargers/forced-induction.html
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm
Jon
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bajachris88
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 02:36 PM |
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what would u guys think would be more wise for a performance vee dub on the track, that would come road worthy? say a 2L genuine type 4. (the
aircooled ones supposably from the caravelles, cause im still trying to understand which model their exactly from, but from what i have heard from
people like xtc, well yeah.)
Adding a little more, what year caravelles range to before they hit any sense of watercooling? if anyone knows. if anyones got links about em' and
where they're from, that'll be awesome.
I have got a fair idea of how each works, but telling whats best for the huge mix of ups and downs is so complicated. btw, that how stuff works web
site is champ, been using since yr 8 for everything. Great read too. Was reading something about the theory of intellegent design, ANYWAYS... on the track again, thanx all for ur contributions to this
talk, its great getting opinions from the pros. Keep em rolling 
string? Lol 
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 05:38 PM |
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A properly configured turbo system shouldnt have any problems being off boost at the strip but it aslo comes down to how the car is setup. A big turbo
is going to need a lot of revs off the line if you want to leave on boost. If your 60ft time is your main concern a supercharged setup may be the
go.
Pro Mod turbo cars cant 60ft as good as the blown and Nitrous Cars (yet) but they top end stronger, thats a pretty good example of the differences i
think.
BTW top fuelers aren't allowed to use anything other than a 14/71 standard helix blower, I think turbo's and Nitro would be ideal companions. Plenty
of wasted heat in the exhaust!
testing 1 2 3...
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Secoh
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 06:00 PM |
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better for what? where you need more low down torque then displacement supercharging such as the rootes blower is the go. centrifugal superchargers
operate in a similar fashion to a turbo so don't make any significant boost in the first 1/3 of the rev range, but are a whole lot easier to plumb in
than a turbo. A turbo is also an efficiency device so when not on boost you can often gain better fuel economy, but as stated they come into their
own high in the rev range (depending on application).
everything is a compromise, so it comes down to where and how you need to use the motor.
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!  |
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 06:38 PM |
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Also, everyone seems to say if you want low down torque go the blower, but just as a thought remember diesel trucks havent used blowers for years. One
of the nice things about turbos is that they respond to load more than evrything else.
testing 1 2 3...
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VWCOOL
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| posted on October 25th, 2005 at 09:44 PM |
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Yes!
and
42
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Secoh
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 11:42 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shiftyvw
Also, everyone seems to say if you want low down torque go the blower, but just as a thought remember diesel trucks havent used blowers for years. One
of the nice things about turbos is that they respond to load more than evrything else.
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see, this is where it gets complicated. You can get awesome low down torque from a turbo, but it is compromised because you do so by using a large
compressor and small exhaust housing, placing a substantial restriction of exhaust gasses. The net result is a turbo that boosts at 1500rpm on a
motor that now won't rev past 4k. No problem on a diesel that won't rev past 4k anyway, but on a high revving petrol motor it's not good. This is
where the first twin turbo setups came from, trying to get both low rpm torque and high rpm power, by using mismatched turbos and a very complicated
valve system.
Again, it's horses for courses. What scenario are we talking about? Until someone nominates that, it's a meaningless discussion.
[ Edited on 26-10-2005 by Secoh ]
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!! |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 05:00 PM |
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well since we're on a vw forum I guess we should talk about what is suited to the humble VW.
I would say a supercharger would be best.
Turbo's put too much heat into the exhaust port. Porsche realised this and put cast in liners in the exhaust ports of the 944 turbo. The problem with
the VW engine is that the head cooling is not that great, and you don't really want to put any more heat into there. The parallel valves of the VW
motor makes it difficult to get cooling air to pass between intake and exhaust and cool the exhaust port / valve properly. Porsche also realised this
and cranked the exhaust valve out on an angle to allow cooling air through on it's early air cooled engines. So vw engines already have crap exhaust
port cooling and putting anymore heat into there is asking for shorter exhaust valve / cylinder head life. Having said all that there are plenty of
turbo vw's running around. I'd put a HPC ceramic coating in the head / exhaust port if going the turbo route.
Superchargers don't put the same amount of heat into the exhaust port as a turbo. I think a VW engine would live longer with a supercharger on it and
run cooler.
But I've never tried it so I can't really say.
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Andy
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 05:43 PM |
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if you want type 4 seach old posts by amazer who ran a reliable turbo type 4 kombi as a daily driver.
Type 4 motors were in production '68-'82 from Germany begining life as 1.7L in the type 4 car. 2L versions ran from ~'75-'82 They were insltalled
in T2, T3 kombi's and porsche's.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 08:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Andy
if you want type 4 seach old posts by amazer who ran a reliable turbo type 4 kombi as a daily driver.
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I guess it all depends on your definition of reliable. I seem to remember sitting at one particular Valla (2003) watching Amazer try to rebuild his
dead turbo type 4 engine at his campsite. Not surprisingly the exhaust ports had failed on both heads.
He rebuilt the top end before heading home, when the bottom end gave way part-way there.
So I guess reliable is a relative term
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shiftyvw
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| posted on October 26th, 2005 at 11:13 PM |
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Most Porche heads have liners in the exhaust ports. even non turbo stuff. Have a look at a 944 turbo manifold if you ever get the chance, not what
most people would call ideal for a turbo! its over a meter of pipe from the head to the turbo!
testing 1 2 3...
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Andy
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 12:26 PM |
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There are hundreds of stock motors out there with the same problem. Ask him how old that head was before that happened, and what was he towing again?
Most kombi heads that fail will be on their second or third re-build, and most likely over 150,000klm between each. Every motor will fail eventually
:thumb
My definition of reliable is the same as the dictionary :P
If your talking life of a motor, not reliability, any performance increase will reduce life as you (and I think most people) would already know.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
I guess it all depends on your definition of reliable. I seem to remember sitting at one particular Valla (2003) watching Amazer try to rebuild his
dead turbo type 4 engine at his campsite. Not surprisingly the exhaust ports had failed on both heads.
He rebuilt the top end before heading home, when the bottom end gave way part-way there.
So I guess reliable is a relative term
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ColumBUS
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 01:02 PM |
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greedy51 ran a supercharged type 2 kombi engine for at least two years, maybe try to contact him about supercharger information
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pete wood
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 02:40 PM |
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for effieciency, a turbo is ahead of a supercharger every day of the week.
people forget three very important things about superchargers;
1. they often produce just as much heat as a turbo because of the pressure they create.
2. they take an amount of power to drive, where a turbo only relies on a little bit of back pressure and heat expansion to drive them.
3. for the same amount of power increase, often superchargers weight far more than turbos. when it all gets down to it, power to weight is where its
all at.
Don't get me wrong, I love blowers, but recently read an excellent techo book on turbos and its been a wakeup call for me. Sure, you could fit a
little blower to a 1600 like greedy's old setup, but it's certainly not going to be as good as some people will tell you. If you are serious about
forced induction, an EFI and intercooled turbo setup will beat a blower every day.
BTW, I am currently thinking out a buildup of a motorkhana special using a 1600. In the long run it will have forced induction and initially I was
thinking a blower until I thought about the weight issue. to keep the engine in one piece and the car under 500kg, a proper turbo setup will be
lighter and give me more power over a blower. I know some are going to sight Pete Gumley's hillclimb car as being blown, light and powerful, but
remember he gets to use alcohol fuel which acts in an intercooling fashion.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 04:51 PM |
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centrifugal superchargers are similar in efficiency and weight as a turbo, but unfortunately very expensive.
They both heat up the intake charge, and both will therefore benefit from an intercooler. The difference is a turbo creates a lot of exhaust
backpressure which puts a lot of heat into the exhaust port. Superchargers don't do this.
For power in a street car a turbo is the best.
For engine life in a vw motor I am sure a supercharger would be the best.
In the end it comes down to what you like. The whistle and 2-stroke power band of a turbo, or the whine and raw torque of a supercharger.
An excellent example was a friends Toyota sprinter. First he had a 4AGZE (1600cc supercharged). Later he swapped it with a CA18DET (1800cc turbo).
Despite the smaller size the 4AGZE had heaps more torque. Any rpm it just went. I love the supercharged exhaust note and supercharger whine. It was
really drivable and was my favourite.
He preferred the CA18DET. Sure it made more power and went quicker, but it didn't respond at lower rpm and required much more gear changes to keep it
in the "power band".
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pete wood
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 05:38 PM |
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Surely it would depend on how much boost he setting the turbo for and the general aim of the setup. WRC cars are limited to 300hp of power by a flow
restrictor, but they produce mental amounts of torque and have a very low redline for a competition engine (6500rpm).
Also, it should said that although centrifugal superchargers are the same weight as turboes, they actully provide all the disadvantages of both, ie.
they don't come on until the revs wind up and they still put a load on the engine. Besides, if blowers are so good for torque, why have all the big
diesel companies gone for turboes? The only car companies that are using blowers on production cars these days are the ones who add the supercharger
as an afterthought, and generally without an intercooler I might add.
Wes, I love blowers, but it seems only sentimental hotrodders think they can really produce the goods over a proper turbo setup. You can factor top
fuelers into this catorgory too.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 07:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood WRC cars are limited to 300hp of power by a flow restrictor, but they produce mental amounts of torque and have a very low
redline for a competition engine (6500rpm).
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WRC cars use complex antilag systems which cause backfires in the exhaust to keep the turbo spooled and almost constantly on boost. I don't think
anyone will run that set-up on a turbo vw.
| Quote: | if blowers are so
good for torque, why have all the big diesel companies gone for turboes?
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because they want efficiency. They don't have crappy air cooled exhaust ports to worry about. Besides, there are heaps and heaps of 2-stroke
supercharged deisel trucks out there.
| Quote: | The only car
companies that are using blowers on production cars these days are the ones who add the supercharger as an afterthought, and generally without an
intercooler I might add.
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I'll telll mercedes you said that. Haven't you heard of the kompressors? Others use supercharging too, some in very efficient cutting edge
technologies (like the miller cycle)
| Quote: | You can factor top
fuelers into this catorgory too.
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Well actually you can't. All the top fuellers I have ever seen are supercharged
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Bug_racer
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 07:15 PM |
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VW did use superchargers on the mk2 golf (g60) and also the polo (g40)
To keep the turbo spooled you inject fuel directly onto the exhaust turbine , this is really hard on the turbo . Generally its a good idea to run
water injection with this kind of setup to try and cool the incoming air into the combustion chamber . Methanol would be ideal :o
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 07:55 PM |
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Pete, some light reading for you since I think you have been brainwashed by the turbo book you read
Saab variable compression supercharged engine - really really efficient;
http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/press/000318.html
Mazda miller cycle KJ-ZEM engine - supercharged and really efficient. I almost put one in my car instead of the KLZE
http://www.mazda.com.au/articleZone.asp?articleZoneID=92
centrifugal superchargers are a lot better than you think, and aren't laggy like a turbo, but do build boost with revs.
I think the really high end drag cars use superchargers for two reasons. 1 - a turbo probably can't produce enough boost. 2 - the exhaust housing and
turbine would probably melt on a top fuel engine.
Don't get me wrong, turbos are good. But the difference isn't as clear cut as you first may think.
I have driven supercharged and turbocharged cars, and I prefer the "character" of the supercharged ones.
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ColumBUS
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 08:08 PM |
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i loved driving the supercharged fatso... really lovely up razorback ranges, sucked fuel pretty hard when you put the foot down.
as stated above its all about driver preferences. there is no better of the two simply because they essentially deliver a different product. much the
same as petrol and diesel engines: both are engines, both have ups and downs, but people will drive one over the other because thats the kind of
engine they like to drive with.
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tassupervee
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bug_racer
To keep the turbo spooled you inject fuel directly onto the exhaust turbine , this is really hard on the turbo . Generally its a good idea to run
water injection with this kind of setup to try and cool the incoming air into the combustion chamber . Methanol would be ideal :o
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Ahhh.....no you dont.
Let me guess, there is a special fuel injector in the exhaust manifold right................errrrr nope.
Antilag is what you are thinking of.
Just about every aftermarket ECU suitable for turbocharged cars has this feature as standard.
There are quite a few issues to deal with using water and one of them is it condenses nicely in 'cooler cores if sprayed into the turbo mouth.
There are plenty of fandangled ways to work around this but the bottom line is its not worth the drama as a half decent cooler core does close enough
to a decent job.
Water is the domain of the archaic draw-thru system.
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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pete wood
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 09:14 PM |
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I was about to say I forgot the miller cycle mazda, but you'd have to admit, that hasn't really taken off, and it still isn't intercooled. As for
Mercedes, I think it's more about marketing and tradition than efficiency for them. They have a history of using them, it's like mazda putting a
piston engine in an RX8, they wouldn't sell. I know about supercharged 2 strokes (diesel and petrol), but they won't work without one if they have a
wet crankcase, so they are not a good example.
I know what you are saying, but I still reckon turbos are a clear winner. And this is coming from a man who'd die to put a supercharger on any car I
own.
wes you said it yourself when you were talking about my reference to turbo diesels,
| Quote: | because they want
efficiency.
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I don't care about whether it's a VW motor or not, I'm over that debate, I was talking about efficiency.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on October 27th, 2005 at 09:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
I was about to say I forgot the miller cycle mazda, but you'd have to admit, that hasn't really taken off, and it still isn't intercooled.
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well actually it is intercooled. It has a highly efficient Lysholm screw-type supercharger and is fitted with two air to air intercoolers.
| Quote: | As for Mercedes, I
think it's more about marketing and tradition than efficiency for them. They have a history of using them, it's like mazda putting a piston engine
in an RX8, they wouldn't sell.
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you could use the same arguement for why trucks famous for their turbo engines use turbos.
| Quote: | I don't care about
whether it's a VW motor or not, I'm over that debate, I was talking about efficiency.
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well I was not talking about efficiency, I was talking about what I thought suited the VW motor the best. So no wonder we don't make sense to each
other But if you are talking efficiency then you probably will have a
hard time finding a turbo engine that is more efficient than the variable compression supercharged SAAB motor anyway.
Turbos are well suited to high revving jap motors. A VW motor does not fit that description, and I think is more suited to a supercharger.
Besides people don't put turbos on their car for efficiency, they do it for more performance. As others have said, turbos and superchargers are just
different types of performance.
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Edmond
Commited Dubber
Posts: 55
Threads: 14
Registered: October 20th, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 02:16 AM |
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Go the supercharger Chris. You will have more fun.
(lighthearted)
re: the sentimental hotrodders/top fuelers. I tried to do some turbo calcs but my brain melted.
The size of the turbos (they would have to be many) would be huge but NO lag and 200+psi boost. "1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the flame
front temperature measures 7050 degrees F (3900 degrees C)" now we'll need some sort of intercooler. 1 pic=1000 words.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5901
Threads: 178
Registered: January 6th, 2005
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Location: Gold Coast
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Mood: 591
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| posted on October 28th, 2005 at 07:03 AM |
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Labor or Liberal?
Some times you know what is right but you still vote for
what you know and love.
I still love my blowers, and as much as it is bogus I would
love to setup a centrifugal blower with an SU carb on an air cooled street volksy.
It can always be EFI'ed and intercooled later and would
be alot faster to fabricate than a full turbo system.
Plus it would be good to try and impress chicks and my
mates...since that is why most of us do stuff that is silly.
Yes turbos are the go, but Volksy blokes like to do stuff
that is different.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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