| [ Total Views: 721 | Total Replies: 22 | Thread Id: 50498 ] |
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 pete wood
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 posted on April 2nd, 2006 at 05:12 PM |
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Narrowed beams...to shock or not to shock?
I just got the lastest Ultra VW. It has two feature cars without narrowed beams and no shocks, as well as a tech article outling fitting a KCW narrow
beam, again without shocks. It made me more than a little worried.
As I understood it, shock absorbers are extremely important in braking and handling. I can certainly remember the horrible way my buggy handled
without shocks during early test runs.
Seems to me that KCW and similar have thrown the baby out with the bathwater all in the name of getting the car to ride lower and look "seek".
What do you all think?
More to the point, is this mod legal over here?
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HotRodMatt
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| posted on April 2nd, 2006 at 05:24 PM |
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I can't see any engineer passing it without shocks.
A friend engineered IFS for his rod and with one look the engineer was going to knock him back - until he realised the shocks were mounted
horizontally inside the panel work.
Have a ride in one, you'll see it's pretty horrible. Lethal if you are going to drive on Blacktown Council maintained roads.
How narrow are you going? And on what? Ball joint of K&P? You may end up needing pockets for the beam in the inner guards. I have a set I don't need,
just haven't had time to cut them out.
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on April 2nd, 2006 at 05:42 PM |
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u gotta be nuts to drive without them
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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ragged
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| posted on April 2nd, 2006 at 08:57 PM |
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If you don't have any suspension what do you need shock absorbers for???
I realise that to some 'appearance is everything' and handling is secondary.
What I see in those magazines is all about image or 'the look'.
Personally, I'd rather drive a car that was safe and reliable.
Cheers Dave
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Unity-28
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| posted on April 2nd, 2006 at 11:02 PM |
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Here we go again......
Personally, I am running shocks with a 4 1/2 inch narrowed beam, but Cause the springs are shortend, the spring rate goes up, making the shocks really
not needed. Now the other question to ask yourself is how many beetles out there or that you have driven have new or undamages shocks? If the shocks
are stuffed, its like having none at all anyway.
N!
[ Edited on 2-4-2006 by Unity-28 ]
[ Edited on 2-4-2006 by Unity-28 ]
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HGFS
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 12:53 AM |
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Yeah I like the idea of keeping shocks. I've just squeezed my 2 inch narrowed beam in the 64 which has shock towers. Randy Gates' 52 split in the
US had a 3 inch narrowed beam with shocks, but his beam was built from scratch with 10mm plate right on the ends of the tubes so it just fit with no
body mods. You can just see it in the pics.
I reckon that has to be the hot ticket for a narrowed beam, 3 inch with shocks & no body mods.
That said, a mate has been trying to convince me that shocks aren't needed, and one of these days I'll be going for a ride in his 4 inch narrowed
bug, without shocks. So I'll see what my opinion is then...
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1954 Oval long term project going nowhere
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1959 Beetle project I need to sell one day
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vwtyp2
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 08:18 AM |
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don't knock it 'til you tried it.
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Most people seem normal, till you get to know them.
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VWFOOL
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 08:27 AM |
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no shocks on a standard beam does ride shit,
but on a narrowed beam, if built correctly, will ride better than with shocks.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One man's junk...
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 11:27 AM |
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Bullshit. Its simple physics, shocks add dampening to the sytem - with out shocks you have no dampening apart from the friction in the king pins
etc.
Without dampening in a suspenion system you have nothing slowing the bounce and return of the sprung weight (ie the wheel). With no shocks, your wheel
will bounce higher (off the road in come cases) for any given impact, and will continue to bounce for longer.
I'll buy that old, shagged shocks may be the same as no shocks, but I wont buy that any beam on a VW with no shocks could be made to ride better than
a stock beam with stock shocks.
Its dangerous (and illegal) to have no shocks on any vehicle that travels at speed on Australian roads. It would be a different argument if you were
driving on a surface that is glass smooth though.
But hey, that just my opinion. You are welcome to drive whatever you like, just dont drive it near me if you have no shocks on it.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 01:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Doug Sweetman
Bullshit. Its simple physics, shocks add dampening to the sytem
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I agree. Shocks also have a second job on a VW, then limit the suspension travel in both directions. What limits the wheel travel when you remove the
shocks?
On a ball joint front end it's the ball joints. Using them as the suspension limit will destroy them.
On a king pin front it's the tyre hitting the fender on up travel and long tie-rod hitting the tunnel on down travel.
Are the no shock people running custom made bump stops? In the car is usually riding on rubber bump stops then the rubber will give an impression of
dampening (and the lack of travel will stop it bouncing more than once).
But any option with no shocks is dangerous.
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pete wood
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 01:51 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwtyp2
don't knock it 'til you tried it.
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Indulge me, I'm trying to understand it. I can see there are a number of reasons why it appears to be ok, at the same time, there are a number of
reasons why it seems to be silly at best and dangerous at worst.
Personally, I think narrowed beams look hot. And increased spring rate must help too, but I just can't come at the idea of losing the shocks. Cars
have had shock absorbers since the very very early days. Is throwing them out now really that good an idea?
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vwtyp2
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| posted on April 3rd, 2006 at 10:35 PM |
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The majority of guys that are chopping off shock towers to get the wheels in that far are not interested in ride quality. It's all about the look.
These cars are not being built to be driven on interstate trips or at high speeds or on an every day basis, they're cruisers.
Most people seem normal, till you get to know them.
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Hertz
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 07:12 AM |
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WHO GIVES A SHIT. do what ever you feel is right. If you dont like the ride deal with it. If its unsafe and you slide off the road into a ditch, deal
with that too. If you want shocks fine, run shocks, If someone else thinks that an 8 inch beam without shocks is cool then thats up to them, it
shouldn't effect your day. |
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pete wood
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 08:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Hertz
WHO GIVES A SHIT. do what ever you feel is right. If you dont like the ride deal with it. If its unsafe and you slide off the road into a ditch, deal
with that too. If you want shocks fine, run shocks, If someone else thinks that an 8 inch beam without shocks is cool then thats up to them, it
shouldn't effect your day.
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well I do, coz if in the process of sliding into a ditch you run two other people off the road and kill someone then everyone else has to deal with
it.
I couldn't care less if your car is rusting to pieces, that doesn't kill people. But anything hampers it's ability to stop and corner properly is a
real issue. Taking the shocks off does exactly that.
Also there are laws involved here so it's not just "up to them". You may as well say if people want to go round shooting things randomly, that's
"up to them". Cars are potentially lethal machines too.
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last celtic warrior
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 09:53 AM |
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Bravo to the people with the sense to advise "for" shocks. Why in hell would you be so motivated to go without shocks in the first place? It's like
"ooh, look at me everyone, I can drive from the back seat with a rope tied to the steering wheel and a broomstick to operate the pedals". It's yet
another case of crazy and uneducated nutballs trying to convince everyone else to accept their way as legitimate.
As for supporting the removal of the shocks because worn out shocks are like having no shocks anyways... Hey, my motor's worn out, let's just remove
it, the car will still drive fine. If something's worn out, replace it, don't just remove it alltogether.
What is the point to removing the shocks? None.
What is the point in leaving them on? Umm, let's think. Less work than trying to remove all the mountings. More control under harsh braking. Less
likelihood of wheels hitting and denting the guards and ruining your paint if you hit a bump. If you do happen to get airborne, the landing will be
less catastrophic. Oh, and you car remains legal to drive on the road.
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Hertz
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 11:01 AM |
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WHY ASK THE QUESTION THEN? ask a dumb question get a Dumb answer. I bet the guy with the narrow beam looks after his car more than the little old lady
who's rollin round with shot brakes, worn shocks bald tyres, blown globes etc. I know which car Id rather have comin towards me at 100 kms an hour on
the hyway
Click the Beetle
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HGFS
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 12:52 PM |
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From the lowered bugs I've driven, theres never been that much suspension travel for the wheels to go so far up & down that bump stops are an issue.
The torsion bars just dont twist that much, and thats on a standard width beam. Narrow it and they get stiffer so isn't that going to limit
suspension travel. Unless your torsion bars are made of plastic I don't see the wheels travelling that far.
People are narrowing beams so that the tyres dont touch the guards, if they did touch the guards without shocks then the no shock thing would have
never taken off. As I said earlier I do feel better keeping the shocks, and it was more work keeping them by the time you remove the inner section of
the tower, cut down the shock boss, cut out a new flat plate for the back of the tower and weld it on. Cutting the tower off & closing up the opening
is pretty damn easy if you ask me.
But am interested to go for a ride in a no shock car just to see the difference. Fact is if you drive an old bug like an idiot on an unsuitable road
then something bad is going to happen, shocks or no shocks. Drive sensibly (taking the road and your car into consideration) and you have got half a
chance.....
1954 Oval long term project going nowhere
1958 Beetle drag car project
1959 Beetle project I need to sell one day
1969 Squareback
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pete wood
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 02:26 PM |
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couldn't you set something up so the shocks ran inboard? Like this I spose, but with the shocks running along the front of the beam...
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=47271
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HGFS
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| posted on April 4th, 2006 at 11:42 PM |
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No reason why not I suppose, if you were going really narrow, really want shocks, and are really good at fabricating. Unfortunately I don't have the
time or skills, but it looks like a cool setup, and if its good enough for racing...
Thanks for the link, I had heard of inboard shocks before but never seen the setup, nice to be able to see how it all works.
1954 Oval long term project going nowhere
1958 Beetle drag car project
1959 Beetle project I need to sell one day
1969 Squareback
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pete wood
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| posted on April 5th, 2006 at 08:12 AM |
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just seemed to me, that if John Jones (KCW) can design and build such good air beams, surely building a trick inboard shock setup would be right up
his ally and well within his abilities. Chopping the shock towers off looks a bit like he being lazy. 
[ Edited on 4-4-2006 by pete wood ]
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shiftyvw
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| posted on April 5th, 2006 at 10:26 AM |
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I think i understand what the narrowed guys say about the beams being so narrow that the spring rate is so high the mass of the beetle can hardly move
the suspension so a shock isnt required and they only get cruised anyway. But wheres the fun in cruising in a car that rattles and bangs over every
bump and cant be driven at speed safely??
And Im no expert but if the beetle hit a bump hard enough with enough energy to actually compress the suspension on a stiff unshocked system, upon
release would it be possible to actually bounce the car off the ground at speed? or am i thinking too hard?:P
Does anyone on here have one of these beams fitted and actually drive their car? Id love to hear someones real experience not what someone in america
says.
testing 1 2 3...
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Cam
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| posted on April 5th, 2006 at 02:29 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by shiftyvw
And Im no expert but if the beetle hit a bump hard enough with enough energy to actually compress the suspension on a stiff unshocked system, upon
release would it be possible to actually bounce the car off the ground at speed? or am i thinking too hard?:P
Does anyone on here have one of these beams fitted and actually drive their car? Id love to hear someones real experience not what someone in america
says.
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Thats exactly what would happen, think about driving a go-kart or any other vehicle with no suspension travel. With the lightweight front of the
beetle the wheels would just lose contact and you would have no steering/extreme understeer.
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shiftyvw
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| posted on April 5th, 2006 at 02:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Thats exactly what
would happen, think about driving a go-kart or any other vehicle with no suspension travel. With the lightweight front of the beetle the wheels would
just lose contact and you would have no steering/extreme understeer.
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Really? fooly sick!! Cant make it over a speed bump or go round a corner!! I'll take 2!
testing 1 2 3...
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