| [ Total Views: 1654 | Total Replies: 21 | Thread Id: 52887 ] |
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 type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
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| posted on June 2nd, 2006 at 10:04 PM |
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using magna parts for EFI?
Hey all,
I have an EFI 2.6l magna which has a perfectly running fuel injection system. How much of this could I use for a low cost EFI conversion into the
notchy?
Parts I would think are ok: efi dizzy, transistor coil, fuel pump + relay, AFM incl. atmospheric pressure sensor, throttle body with TPS and IST motor
(easy to remove if redundant), fuel pressure regulator,
Not sure about : injectors (size & flow), modify existing plenum.
Would need: EMS (computer), custom harness, fuel rails, temp sender etc etc
Oh, and I want to eventually run a moderate boost turbo with intercooler. :jesus
Ratty63's projects are an inspiration and I am hungry for more information!
Cheers,
Toby :thumb
[ Edited on 3-6-2006 by type3lover ]
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VWCOOL
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| posted on June 2nd, 2006 at 10:08 PM |
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Might be better with Camira stuff instead - I paid $80 for EVERYTHING except the fuel tank and pump, and O2 sensor cos the wrecking yard was about to
close and I run outta time to get it off...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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type3lover
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| posted on June 2nd, 2006 at 10:34 PM |
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I know Camira stuff works (just see what Ratty63 has done with it) but I have a perfectly running Magna that I am considering cannibalising for
anything useful for the type 3 project and scrap the rest. Oh yeah I forgot to mention the 02 sensor. I take it closed loop is a better system,
right?
Cheers, T
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Volkswagenboy
A.k.a.: Brenton Barry
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| posted on June 2nd, 2006 at 11:13 PM |
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I wanna know too! I have a running Magna I wanna use for VW purposes!
-Staggers.
STAGGERS AUTOMOTIVE - Heavy Vehicle Diesel Specialist
JB CUSTOMS & CLASSICS - Car Builders
2/53 Tradelink Drive, Browns Plains |
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Volkswagenboy
A.k.a.: Brenton Barry
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| posted on June 8th, 2006 at 09:42 PM |
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BUMP
-Staggers.
STAGGERS AUTOMOTIVE - Heavy Vehicle Diesel Specialist
JB CUSTOMS & CLASSICS - Car Builders
2/53 Tradelink Drive, Browns Plains |
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
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| posted on June 17th, 2006 at 05:15 PM |
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Surely someone has done this? The parts are bosch / mitsu and off a magna are dirt cheap as well.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on June 17th, 2006 at 06:04 PM |
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Can't program the Magna's PCM like the Holden/Delco one - so all you will end up using is the injectoirs and possibly, dizzy
Sell the Magma and use the $ for Camira stuff
Pay your debts, CxxT
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type3lover
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| posted on June 18th, 2006 at 04:06 PM |
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Righto.
If it's not worth it I'll sell the car complete - it presents well and is in great condition for it's age but who wants to buy a mugna.
Otherwise I had thought about using the following bits if suited:
-injectors
-dizzy
-air flow meter with built in atmospheric pressure sensor
-oxygen sensor
-plenum chamber (use as a base for custom manifold!)
-throttle body
-throttle position sensor and idle-up (IST) motor
-fuel pump
-fuel filter (replacement)
- fuel pressure regulator
-coil
Then just get a programmable ECU and fab up a fuel rail and some manifolds and fanny's your aunty! Wishful thinking!
There's a lot to this sort of project as we all know after reading about Ratty's escapades but if these parts are worthwhile using I'll just
harvest them from the fagna. If not maybe someone needs a cheap car!?
Cheers! T :thumb
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ratty 63
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| posted on June 18th, 2006 at 04:31 PM |
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He He He - just dropped by the forum to see update my mega-post with more details of the last few weeks sagas and look what I found. Great to hear
that there are a few other people looking to do what I have done. Go for it!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by type3lover
.... I had thought about using the following bits if suited:
-injectors
-dizzy
-air flow meter with built in atmospheric pressure sensor
-oxygen sensor
-plenum chamber (use as a base for custom manifold!)
-throttle body
-throttle position sensor and idle-up (IST) motor
-fuel pump
-fuel filter (replacement)
- fuel pressure regulator
-coil
Then just get a programmable ECU and fab up a fuel rail and some manifolds and fanny's your aunty! Wishful thinking!
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From my experience - injectors should be OK as long as they match the ECU - most EFI cars (except the Kombis and TIII's as I now know), use high
resistance injectors. Low resistance injectors are used in Turbo/SUpercharged vehicles where the injector is held open for much longer periods due to
the need for extra fuel (under boost).
Dissy, does it fit into a VW case? Is the foot the same as the VW dissys? Is it a fully electronic dissy or is it still a vac or mechanical advance
type? If it is a fully electronic dissy and the answer to the first two questions is 'yes' then you should be able to use the Magna Dissy. If
it's not fully electronic (ie: the dissy controls the advance and not the ECU) then I would be concerned about the ignition advance being correct for
a VW engine - the ignition timing makes a HUGE difference to VW's.
Air Flow Meter - it will depend on the ECU you choose as to whether the AFM will be useable. Some ECU's will work with an AFM and some require a MAP
sensor instead. No big deal, MAP sensors are easily available second hand.
Oxygen Sensor - only of use if it is a brand-new 3 or 4 wire sensor. O2 sensors have a finite lifespan and chances are that this one (in the Magna)
is beyond its use by date. You need a heated O2 sensor (3 or 4 wire) for a VW due to the need to mount it so far away from the head.
Plenum Chamber - may be of use - depending on your fabrication skills. Have you considered using a stock TIII plenum and manifold?
Throttle Body - Yep, should be of use.
Throttle position sensor - should be part of the throttle body, so yep, should be of use.
Idle-up (IST) motor - will depend on the ECU you choose. The Delco ECU (that I used) only works with GM IAC's (or IST in this case). Best to check
with the ECU manufacturer.
-fuel pump - internal or external? Either way it could be used, but it will depend on how much fabrication work you want to do to your fuel
tank....
-fuel filter (replacement) - yep - no question
- fuel pressure regulator - yep - no question
-coil - probably, again depending on the ECU.
Hope this helps!
R 
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type3lover
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| posted on June 29th, 2006 at 05:47 PM |
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Cheers Ratty!
Injectors: Standard Bosch - flow rate not known.
Distributor: Not the one I'm talking about in another thread. This is the hall effect 2 sensor efi dizzy that once machined to fit should work well
with most ecu's.
AFM: I think this provides signals for flow and pressure.
o2 Sensor: Yep, ditch and get a heated one
Plenum: Might go for VW plenum & manifold (large enough for turbo??)
Throttle body: about 48mm at the butterfly
TPS & IST: Would this depend upon input & output resistance / impedance or is it all std?
EFI Fuel Pump: Is internal, however I'd consider using a LP pump from the tank and then putting it into a surge tank ideally.
Fuel filter: I think VL commodore filters are pretty cheap
Pressure regulator: So just plumb it to one of the fuel rails?
Coil: Uses a transistor pack to fire from the ECU signal.
ECU: I wonder if it could be used just for testing purposes to run the engine? Can't see why not if the firing order is correct (just wiring!). I'm
thinking fuel delivery could be managed with the correct size injectors in a closed loop system and that the problem would be the pre-programmed
timing map only not being ideal...
Would also need to look at coolant (oil) temp sensor, knock sensor (if the new ecu uses it) and most importantly upgrading to an alternator to power
all this gear! What have I forgotten ! ;-)
Cheers, T
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ratty 63
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| posted on June 30th, 2006 at 11:02 AM |
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Couple of things to consider:
I can't remember what size throat my Camira TB has, but be careful not to go too large as it will effect your vac signal at low throttle (and
therefore make low throttle driving ... er ... uncomfortable) - a friend of mine used a TB from an EA Falcon on a 2 litre Type III engine. It had
almost no grunt at low revs and required the go pedal to be mashed just to get it to begin to accelerate ..... although part of this may have been due
to poor tuning too....
Coolant temp: consider your options here - the coolant temp sensor in a water cooled car is mounted in the back of the head - in this location it is
as close as you can get to measuring the head temp. This area of the engine will experience fairly rapid changes in temp both when you first start
the car (warm up) and if you should get the spark or fuel incorrect (too much advance or too lean) - on the other hand, the oil temp will take a fair
while to respond to any changes in engine operation. Most ECU's use the temp sensor to operate the cold enrichment (like a choke on carb'd cars).
If you use the oil temp I believe that you would have to wait a long time before the ECU would 'see' the engine to be at operating temp. I used a
'temp sender II' from an EFI VW (Kombi or Type III) - it screws into the head beside the intake port on some twin port heads. The only issue that I
experienced with doing it this way was that the head temp was higher than what the water temp would be in a water cooled engine, causing the ECU to
freek-out. Easily sorted with the use of a resistor in the coolant temp wire....
Knock sensor: Probably not worth worrying about. They are usually tuned to individual engines and unless you can change the sensitivity of the knock
sensor it will probably cause more problems than it fixes (keep in mind - VW engines are much noisier than a Magna engine... well, most of the time
anyway ).
Just my thoughts....
R
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VWCOOL
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| posted on June 30th, 2006 at 11:48 AM |
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yes ratty, good advice on the TB - a mate had twin Holden 60mm (VN) TBs on a Holden V8 and wondered why it was so hard to drive; it was because some
dickhead told him they must open at the same time - the result being 2mm of throttle movement opened the TBs enough to feed about 300kW... he changed
them to staggered opening (one before the other - logically the one with the TPS opens first; like a Walkinshaw Commodore) and it cleaned up the
low-speed driveability and still gave him 500 or something horses. A standard Camira/Pulsar TB is about 50mm for 80kW factory so will feed enough air
for a hottie 120+hp VW (90kW) easily...
[ Edited on 30-6-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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type3lover
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| posted on August 21st, 2006 at 04:55 PM |
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Just a brief update...I have procured a type 3 injection manifold and throttle body which is going to be for the first stage of my injection project.
After removing the plastic from the fuel inlet end to allow a hose to be clamped on and swapping the pintles (the plastic tips on injectors - is that
what they are called?) the magna injectors are fitted to the VW manifold.
The EFI magna dizzy will be machined to fit in the next 2 weeks. It uses 2 hall effect sensors - the second one is for No.1 cylinder TDC which means
that this dizzy is ready to use with sequential injection, which is handy to know. There is no advance mechanism in this dizzy either so the timing
map will be controlled by the ECU.
As I said, this is only stage one. I intend to use the megasquirt ECU and magna parts to get the car running well and to learn about programming an
EFI system. Later on will come dreams of twin turbos, crank triggered ignition and individual coil packs, extra injectors for high boost,
intercooling, water/methanol spray etc etc but that's for later.
More to come as things progress, and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better. It may take a while between
updates as I save the $$$ for parts though.
Cheers! Toby :thumb
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ratty 63
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| posted on August 22nd, 2006 at 08:47 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by type3lover
.... and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better.....
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great idea - I'm very interested to see how this turns out - don't forget to include pics of the work you are doing as this will make it easier for
everyone to understand (particularly if they are not 100% knowledgable on the topic of EFI).
Go for it!
R
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on August 22nd, 2006 at 09:03 AM |
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Do post lots of pics mate, there are quite a few of us lurkers accumulating the bits to do the FI conversion,
any info posted happily read!
same goes for rattus 63, but he knows that
kkk
| Quote: | Originally
posted by type3lover
Just a brief update...I have procured a type 3 injection manifold and throttle body which is going to be for the first stage of my injection project.
After removing the plastic from the fuel inlet end to allow a hose to be clamped on and swapping the pintles (the plastic tips on injectors - is that
what they are called?) the magna injectors are fitted to the VW manifold.
The EFI magna dizzy will be machined to fit in the next 2 weeks. It uses 2 hall effect sensors - the second one is for No.1 cylinder TDC which means
that this dizzy is ready to use with sequential injection, which is handy to know. There is no advance mechanism in this dizzy either so the timing
map will be controlled by the ECU.
As I said, this is only stage one. I intend to use the megasquirt ECU and magna parts to get the car running well and to learn about programming an
EFI system. Later on will come dreams of twin turbos, crank triggered ignition and individual coil packs, extra injectors for high boost,
intercooling, water/methanol spray etc etc but that's for later.
More to come as things progress, and if anyone is interested I can start a new thread detailing my progress a bit better. It may take a while between
updates as I save the $$$ for parts though.
Cheers! Toby :thumb
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rallydave
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| posted on October 8th, 2006 at 11:04 AM |
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Hi just came across this old stuff. Conti engines on bribie Island in Qld has had magna injection on his race buggy for some time and has 100hp at the
wheels with kombi power turning 34in tyres! He also runs magna stuff on his ultra light aircraft vw engines. I've been a mitsu registered tech and a
holden registered tech for ages and the gear for the magna is far more reliable.cheers.
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rallydave
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| posted on October 8th, 2006 at 11:08 AM |
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ps for all those thinking they can outsmart the delco ecu with resistors,forget it.The delco unit even as far back as 1988 will see the incorrect
value range,set a code and SUBSTITUTE a known value from the ROM mapping.If you don't belive me plug in a tech 1 or 2 scan tool.
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dusto81
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| posted on October 9th, 2006 at 10:01 AM |
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Chuck the whole magna engine in I reckon. I just bought a 74 ute with a magna/sigma engine in it and it runs fantastic with heaps of torque and fits
in the engine bay perfectly. There cheap engines too which is great for replacement.
Cheers,
Dustin
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
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| posted on October 9th, 2006 at 10:53 AM |
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Dusto - I had considered just that for a rat project or maybe kombi but didn't get anywhere with it. Still got the whole car in the back yard!
Rallydave - I concur. The magna (bosch) stuff has always been reliable in both cars I've owned. The only prob in 4 years was the fuel pump
failing.
I haven't done much with this efi conversion recently hence the fact I haven't posted on this for a while - been focussed on rebuilding my type 4
kombi motor, which is now finished. I hope to get back into it shortly though!!
Cheers, Toby :thumb
[ Edited on 9-10-2006 by type3lover ]
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lunar_c
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| posted on November 5th, 2006 at 02:41 PM |
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Don't forget don't all (well the later 1991+ model ones) magna's use an air flow meter? They're a bit of a pain as they have to be just before the
air filter and they're a bit bulky so trying to fit it all under the decklid may become a challenge..
Also like others have said if you use a Delco 808 ecu like on the commodores and camira's you get an ECU that you can reprogram reasonably easily
with Kalmaker.
It's also a VERY capable ECU .. being used by GM from the factory on everything from aussie camira's to yank 351ci ford trucks.
6 Dubs in and counting..
1966 1300 Deluxe Beetle in polar white.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on November 5th, 2006 at 04:14 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by rallydave
ps for all those thinking they can outsmart the delco ecu with resistors,forget it.The delco unit even as far back as 1988 will see the incorrect
value range,set a code and SUBSTITUTE a known value from the ROM mapping.If you don't belive me plug in a tech 1 or 2 scan tool.
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If left standard, yes, but not after you've tuned it to suit the VW with Kalmaker software
[ Edited on 6-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
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type3lover
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| posted on November 6th, 2006 at 03:32 PM |
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Or you can just build a megasquirt II kit with built in map sensor and forget the AFM!
Here's a sneak peek of where I'm at with this...
(The generator is not staying!)
Cheers, Toby :thumb
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