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 Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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 posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:00 PM |
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Long term street/strip project - EFI/turbo advice?
Now the ragtop beetle has left the stable (see next issue of VWMA), I was fortunate enough to acquire a nice notch (daily driver) and an oval as part
of the trade. Although my wife won't be too happy about my plans, I've decided to take it slow to not blow the budget (again).
Anyway, after the warwick weekend (my first drag racing experience) I am well and truly hooked so my attention now turns to a street/strip project
(hence the oval).
I've been inspired by the cars like Rod Richardson's (Raz34), Dave Becker's and Morgan Smith's beetles (not to mention countless others) and
therefore want a tough and traditional (to a degree) "looker".
Here are the pics, more blah blah below. (here it is coming home)
[ Edited on 12-1-2007 by Dasdubber ]
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:10 PM |
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She is a nice solid old girl so apart from some firewall mods (maybe) it will stay as is for quite a while. The limiting factor for plans will be
money - I've just started up a new business and it will be a while before it starts turning over a profit, however I need to keep dreaming to keep
the motivation alive!
I kept the type IV out of my ragtop so that will eventually go into this oval however its stock cam and heads are limiting the fun significantly! In
terms of advice I'll ask the questions below:
Plans are to eventually (when $ permits) strip the type IV down, keep the 71mm crank, stock rods, flywheel etc as is to save a few dollars, keep the
case fairly standard and change the cam and do some head work.
Option 1: bump up displacement via 103mm p&c's (have researched a fair bit already re. head sealing issues), keep it naturally aspirated (not sure if
the 40 dells will suffice), change cam perhaps to something like webcam 86b, and try and get the heads to flow a little better.
Option 2: keep p&c's at 94.5 along with internals (maybe ARP rod bolts for strength - again not sure if needed), modify the current header to suit a
turbo application. Again $ will restrict how far I'd go, but of course then dual FI throttle bodies could be integrated as well.
Option 3,4,5 etc etc - of course the options are only limited by money and time....I'll post a little more info below to give you an idea of what I
hope to achieve.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:23 PM |
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At the risk of writing a 5000 word essay, I'll try and limit the blurb to relvant info only. Ultimately (eventually) I'd love to run 11s, and more
realistically 12s until cash starts to flow a little better - I want to have it street registered but not necessarily to do any 100km runs up the
coast etc.
For now since I have a fairly solid type IV base I'd like to keep its stock stroke etc and play with heads, cam etc for short term improvement in
ET's. Down the track I will reassess type I vs IV etc....basically trying to keep the $ outlay as small as possible over the next 6 months whilst
business picks up, then I might have a bit more to play with mid next year (hopefully).
Current exhaust:
During exhaust construction (I understand there could be problems with mounting a turbo so low though (presuming the muffler is eliminated and flange
modified) - oil return issues etc?
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:26 PM |
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Any advice is appreciated - I need to talk about gearboxes as well but will keep reading before I ask any more specific questions (obviously the NA vs
turbo equation will affect ratios etc).
Perhaps initially just a new cam, and head work will get me on the track any maybe into the 14s? Save the coin and build a more serious engine after
funds allow?
Cheers
Alan
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:39 PM |
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Hi Alan,
Welcome to the dark side, there is no return you know!!
I (and I am sure others) would be happy to give advice, and time, into your project.
Good basic drivetrain investments, like axles and tranny are a good start in a project like this.
The engine will be a project that evolves with your need for speed,
so you can start with what you have and progress from there.
If you aim for reliability and consistency, fast times will roll in.
DB.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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ruckus
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 08:52 PM |
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Nice 54 Alan!
Obviously I can't give any advice, but I eagerly await the outcome as I've loved learning from your approach in the past.
Good luck with it!
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Dasdubber
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 09:04 PM |
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Thanks Dave and Rob - any advice or words of encouragement are always appreciated....you'd be surprised how many times I wanted to stop work on the
ragtop during the resto but the comments from people such as yourselves kept me going!
You are right Dave, I want to build a really solid base (ie. gearbox, axles etc) that will handle mild power to start with, but also deal with some
more hp later on.
Likewise for the engine - basic to start with, but if I did end up going EFI etc, I'd like to carry those parts onto a bigger engine down the
track.
Cheers 
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nbturbo
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 10:22 PM |
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Alan-did you catch up with Adam Debiasi at Warwick-he had a 2.5 Type4 in a 57 Beetle.You couldn't get anything more streetable than it,and it's
capable of low 12's.When he put the motor into the 57-he told me that his first run was a 12.5 with all street running gear-really surprised himself.
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Aussie
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| posted on October 20th, 2006 at 10:45 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
She is a nice solid old girl so apart from some firewall mods (maybe) it will stay as is for quite a while. The limiting factor for plans will be
money - I've just started up a new business and it will be a while before it starts turning over a profit, however I need to keep dreaming to keep
the motivation alive!
I kept the type IV out of my ragtop so that will eventually go into this oval however its stock cam and heads are limiting the fun significantly! In
terms of advice I'll ask the questions below:
Plans are to eventually (when $ permits) strip the type IV down, keep the 71mm crank, stock rods, flywheel etc as is to save a few dollars, keep the
case fairly standard and change the cam and do some head work.
Option 1: bump up displacement via 103mm p&c's (have researched a fair bit already re. head sealing issues), keep it naturally aspirated (not sure if
the 40 dells will suffice), change cam perhaps to something like webcam 86b, and try and get the heads to flow a little better.
Option 2: keep p&c's at 94.5 along with internals (maybe ARP rod bolts for strength - again not sure if needed), modify the current header to suit a
turbo application. Again $ will restrict how far I'd go, but of course then dual FI throttle bodies could be integrated as well.
Option 3,4,5 etc etc - of course the options are only limited by money and time....I'll post a little more info below to give you an idea of what I
hope to achieve.
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Looks like you have got a decent base car! Any other pics?
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 08:22 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nbturbo
Alan-did you catch up with Adam Debiasi at Warwick-he had a 2.5 Type4 in a 57 Beetle.You couldn't get anything more streetable than it,and it's
capable of low 12's.When he put the motor into the 57-he told me that his first run was a 12.5 with all street running gear-really surprised himself.
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Yeah I had a good chat to Adam about his type IV - the big challenges are obviously head flow and exhaust stub port restrictions (can't go too big
since they have to fit between the push rod tubes)....to keep costs down initially I will probably keep my current headers though. I love the torque
of the 2L type IV already so I'd love to see what it feels like when bumped up a bit!
I'll try and get some more pics soon.
Cheers
Alan
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bails
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 08:53 AM |
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alan ,tell me how you do it. you must have 36 hours in your days. looking forward (again) to the build. here's to mid 10's. :thumb
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pete wood
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 12:08 PM |
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Wayne Penrose had some stuff on his turbo oval post about getting bigger primaries in between the pushrod tubes.
Also, depending on what access you have to a machine shop, EFI throttle bodies and manifolds can be made using existing throttle bodies and a bit of
nous. I saw a Jag 6 in Zoom a while back with 6 camry throttle bodies all ganged together and injectors spraying right into the bell mouths.
You could also modify type 4 EFI manifolds. I've got some and having had a look at them, it can't be that hard. I know the weber stuff is easier to
bolt on, but it also costs an arm and a leg.
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whatnow
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 01:30 PM |
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not trying to rain on your parade, but wouldn't it be more sensable (though no where near as cool) to get something like a 60's 6V shell so it
doesn't matter when you gut it completely, chop it for removable valance to clear big carbs or FI and then weight reduction, fit extra/larger fuel
lines, traction bars, fit glass panels and lexan etc
someone on the cal-look forum once said that 50lbs weight reduction = -.1 et on the strip.
stripping out the interior of a car plus bumpers sound deadening etc costs nothing and should see a noticable drop in et's over the blue car and you
still get to have a beautiful oval to cruise in on the weekends.
i'm sure there are plenty of people who would be happy to off load stuff your direction just for the pleasure of watching another dasauto being
created... on that note you have a u2u.
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Dasdubber
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 07:02 PM |
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Cheers for your thoughts re. alternative beetle/shell to use to maintain the integrity of the 54. I do appreciate it and also have thought about it
many times (hence why I haven't posted any details of this oval up until now despite owning it for a few months). I guess there is always a risk that
some people will be upset about making a street/strip project out of such a solid old oval, however my justification (not that I really need to
justify it to anyone other than my wife!) is:
1) space restrictions - I already can't fit all my cars at my home (have to pay storage for my splitty) so I couldn't keep the oval and start
another project (and I don't want to sell the oval);
2) I couldn't justify a pure drag car to my wife and not be able to enjoy it on the streets (even if just for short trips around the gold coast where
I live);
3) I always like to do something a little different and the oval provided such an opportunity as there aren't too many on the strip in Oz at the
moment (of course there are exceptions like Wayne Penrose etc);
4) it is such a solid base, it will save me months of rust repair and structural work before I tackle the mechanical side; and
5) I won't be destroying the oval - any necessary mods will be subtle and staying in the taste of the old girl to maintain its integrity.
I haven't meant this to sound defensive as I know no-one was having a go (I am sure purists out there will cringe). Everyone has there reasons for
following a particular pathway with their cars and what may seem sensible to one person will seem insensible to another...ultimately I will follow the
pathway that suits my tastes, budget, and what is in the best interest for our situations (space, finance etc etc). Down the track (I mean way down
the track), after I get it running at an ET I am happy with (although are we ever happy unless we are going faster?), I'd love to restore it like the
Renn Kafer Cup cars in the US - best of both worlds (show and go).
Cheers, I'll post some more pics later hopefully.
Alan
[ Edited on 21-10-2006 by Dasdubber ]
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555bug
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| posted on October 21st, 2006 at 11:18 PM |
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If it was my decision I would supercharge your donk, quad throttle bodies in a carbon box like the Remelle cars. That was all the work you have done
is maintained plus any cam changes etc. will be beneficial to power output which is often not the case with turbos. Best of luck I look forward to
see her in the flesh at Warrick
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hypo-vw
A.k.a.: Wayne Penrose
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 posted on October 22nd, 2006 at 08:29 AM |
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Hi Alan , good luck with your project 54' . I will be great to see some more quick ovals on the OZ drag strips , not to mention how great it will be
to see you develop your own type-4 turbo engine .
I too believe that this is the way to go for extreme VW street performance in an air-cooled volkswagen , with the best reliability .
Go the 'big block' Veedubs.............
Team 
FASTEST ET @ WARWICK 2010 & 2011
FASTEST SPEED @ WARWICK 2011
FASTEST ET & SPEED WSID 2012
PB - 6.33@113.07(1/8) & 9.88@135(1/4)
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 22nd, 2006 at 10:15 AM |
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Thanks guys. Wayne, seeing your oval at warwick (albeit briefly!) certainly provided more inspiration to see what the type IV can do (along with
Adam's beige bug).
Just in case anyone was wondering what I was driving at warwick, this is the 70 bug which I've restored to sell shortly - I had my 2L type IV (stock
cam, heads etc) in it for the weekend. Best was only 10.5 (taking it easy on the launch so not to break the box before selling the car!)....you could
really feel the stock cam and heads limit it above 3500rpm!
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on October 22nd, 2006 at 11:25 AM |
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I think you can achieve what you want with out cutting up your '54.
These days, you can brace your forks with bolt-in stuff, and I would guess that with some engine tinwear trimming the engine will go close.
If you invest wisely in the tranny, you wont have to pull it out very often, so the rear apron can prob stay intact.
But it is only metal, you cant take it with you...
Sell that Blue car and start getting some tranny bits dude!
I think I can help in that department.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 22nd, 2006 at 12:35 PM |
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The rear end has had a hit in the past (the stock 36hp rear tin barely fits due to the squashed side of engine bay)....so the removable rear apron was
going to happen regardless (same as my old ragtop - you couldn't really tell unless you looked closely).
| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Sell that Blue car and start getting some tranny bits dude!
I think I can help in that department.
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Cool Dave, I'll do a bit more reading to obtain some knowledge....then will post some more specific questions and will have a chat to you in more
detail.
Alan
PS It has been resprayed so don't worry - its not original paint
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pete wood
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| posted on October 22nd, 2006 at 04:39 PM |
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mmm, just waiting for something big and nasty in it's rear end...
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Aussie
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| posted on October 23rd, 2006 at 02:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
The rear end has had a hit in the past (the stock 36hp rear tin barely fits due to the squashed side of engine bay)....so the removable rear apron was
going to happen regardless (same as my old ragtop - you couldn't really tell unless you looked closely).
How are you going to make your rear apron removable? Got any pics of how you did it on your ragtop?
[ Edited on 22-10-2006 by Aussie ]
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Dasdubber
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| posted on October 23rd, 2006 at 07:32 AM |
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G'day mate, here is a link to the pics of how I did the old ragtop rear apron mod:
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album146
I guess my first real question would be in regards to turbo placement - I understand it is desirable to have the turbo above the case for oil return,
do you think;
A) the current header could be adapted to either place a turbo down low (eg. changing the flange pictured and mounting the turbo near right side valve
cover)?, or
B) mount the turbo in the engine bay and keep the current header as is but run a single pipe from the pictured merge up into the engine bay?
C) of course a new header arrangement could be ideal but initially I will need to keep costs down as much as possible by using what I have where
possible.
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Dasdubber
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| posted on October 23rd, 2006 at 07:33 AM |
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By the way, the oval will have it's back end much higher than the old ragtop so ground clearance will not be such an issue as it was in the old car.
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Turbo54
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| posted on October 23rd, 2006 at 10:18 AM |
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Alan,
I have been for a ride in Adam debs car and it is seriously quick. I even offered to swap motors with him. The induction noise will have you roped in
in no time and it has run 12.02 which is bloody fast. You have all the right bits to do this. i would go this path for the moment and then think efi
or boost. The 54 looks clean and untouched which is good. I have done mine with min carnage and saved weight with other things and carefull planning
rather than hacking out panels. It can be done and everything can fit. Cant wait to see this one progress, if you have any questions about a 54 let me
know.
T54
C'mon kids gather round,
there's a new sensation hitting town,
It's moving straight, low to the ground,
it'll pick you up when your feeling down.
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66deluxe
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| posted on October 25th, 2006 at 09:07 AM |
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Alan, i am going to be doing an ARP rod bolt conversion to my 2 litre rods as i have about 4 sets of them and use chevy big block bolts they are
basically the same as the ARP 914 bolts but cheaper and you get 16 instead of eight, i will then balance the rods end to end and hopefully get my mate
at Boeing to shot peen them for me, another option would be to get a 71mm crank for Jake Raby with the type 1 journals these are only $275 US, then
you could use any performance type 1 rod you like. Good to see the drag racing bug has hit, nice oval too. Cheers Damo.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.
61 Karmann Ghia 2110cc type1 w Los Panchito's
66 Deluxe Beetle 2270 type 4
10 Subaru WRX Impreza
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on October 25th, 2006 at 10:49 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 66deluxe
Alan, i am going to be doing an ARP rod bolt conversion to my 2 litre rods as i have about 4 sets of them and use chevy big block bolts they are
basically the same as the ARP 914 bolts but cheaper and you get 16 instead of eight, Cheers Damo.
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Hi Damo,
You will have to drill and ream the rods to fit the chevy bolts, and they will have to be made round again (resized) either way.
I have used the ARP bolts for the T1 rods and they are superb, but yes, expensive.
I would buy direct from ARP, but do a phone-around to places like Rocket or Bill Mann( in Bris), they may have old stock, but dont let themsend you
the wrong part number!.
The cost to drill and ream the rods, may outweigh the cost difference, and also the bolt head may need clearancing(not sure on this) with the Chev
bolts.
Hey Alan, Keep that sucker N/A!
Save the turbo for the Notch!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on October 25th, 2006 at 07:03 PM |
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I think I will have a fair bit more time to decide which way to go Dave.
My initial thoughts are to do the car in two or three stages over a few years (although plans often change). First would be to retain the type IV and
do a budget (again being realistic and not cutting corners) performance upgrade (hence why I'll keep my crank, rods and flywheel stock). If I keep
the current p&c's, addiing a turbo could provide a short term way to get a few more ponies and have some fun on the strip. I'd like to build a box
to handle more power though (for stage 2).
This could include either a totally revised type IV approach, or build a big type I N/A when funds allow. Who knows at this stage though.
I don't know if I ever will get to stage 3 but I'd love to have a car like the DRKC machines which would encompass a full resto to the quality (or
better) than my old ragtop, but with the performance (from stage 2) to back up the looks.
Time will tell (and how much or little of the folding stuff I have at the time!). I got the oval running the other day - hard to contain its mighty
36hp powerplant but I resisted the urge to do any burnouts for now!
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 02:21 PM |
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I always end up writing too much so I'll try and keep it short.
I have sold my blue bug and had to sell the notch to keep some food on the table and the bank happy....so I am in the planning stage for oval upgrades
(hopefully before warwick but not for a while).
My plan entails modifying the parcel tray/firewall area to accommodate a turbo (above the gearbox) and intercooler (similar to Wayne's oval but a
much tamer version). Remember at the end of the day it is my car, so please resist the urge to tell me not to cut it - you know I won't do anything
stupid or unnecessary 
I want to use as many of my existing components as possible (to keep costs down) therefore the base will be:
- stock 71mm crank and rods, slightly lightened flywheel, 94.5mm p&c's all balanced by crankshaft engineering before it was assembled the first time.
(all in a 2L case)
- 2L heads with 1800 valves - this is an area which can obviously do with some big improvements in terms of port flow, possibly exhaust valve size -
the current valves have the typical 3 angle grind.
- I plan to modify my current headers so they are reversed (ie. the merge will face forwards on the LHS of engine rather than backwards on the RHS as
it stands currently). I would like to run the single pipe up over the g'box to the turbo.
QUESTIONS:
1) For a relatively mild engine like this, what sort of turbo recommendations are there?
2) I'd like to run a single throttle body and EFI - any suggestions I should start my research with?
I intend to use this engine as a learning experience so I want to keep the budget tight (within reason) - for example using second hand/reco'd
turbo/throttle body/efi etc. I don't mind spending $ on components which I could potentially use for a bigger/better engine down the track (eg.
ignition system). I just want to do as much as I can and learn along the way so when it comes time to go faster, I know what I am doing.
So don't worry, I know and agree with the general advice of do things once rather than twice....but this is the best compromise otherwise the oval
won't see the strip for a couple years if I try and build the big engine right now.
Cheers
Alan
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cram
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 368
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 06:01 PM |
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Good thinking reversing the exhaust! just need a big pipe up to the turbo and down again to the muffler..Also, I know you mentioned EFI, but why not
go down the draw-through set-up path using a holley or side draft weber/dell? Would be the cheapest and easiest way to go turbo.
dont forget the brakes!
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Flintstones
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 06:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
QUESTIONS:
1) For a relatively mild engine like this, what sort of turbo recommendations are there?
2) I'd like to run a single throttle body and EFI - any suggestions I should start my research with?
I intend to use this engine as a learning experience so I want to keep the budget tight (within reason) - for example using second hand/reco'd
turbo/throttle body/efi etc. I don't mind spending $ on components which I could potentially use for a bigger/better engine down the track (eg.
ignition system). I just want to do as much as I can and learn along the way so when it comes time to go faster, I know what I am doing.
Cheers
Alan
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Use a turbo off a VL or an FJ20/SR20 or somthing similar that has an internal wastegate (TO3) with a .63 rear or there abouts , get an XF throttle
body, they're cheap as.
Get a liberty water to air intercooler and some series 4 13B turbo injectors, and that will get you a good start.
cheers
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