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Author: Subject:  LATEST EFI PROJECT
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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 10:12 AM
LATEST EFI PROJECT


Picked up the EFI stuff off a Camira at a wreckers a few days ago.

ECU, TB and TPS, injectors, HP fuel pump and pressure regulator
http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv5.jpg

Complete loom with relays and sensors
http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv6.jpg

Dizzy and coil
http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv7.jpg

Injectors = $40
MAP sensor = $33
TB = $33
Air temp sensor = $22
ECU = $88
Dizzy = $77
Coolant temp sensor = $11
O2 sensor = $11
HP fuel pump = $44
Fuel reg = $11
Complete loom = $0
= $370




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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 05:14 PM



Here is the wiring loom now that all the insulation tape has been removed
http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv8.jpg

Here are some pics of some of the sensors. Not exactly sure which is which, so I will need to get a workshop manual. Kalmaker suggest that should be one of the first things to get.
http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv9.jpg

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv10.jpg

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv11.jpg




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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 05:17 PM



The HP fuel pump off the Camira looks exactly the same as the one I have off a VL Commodore.

The Commodore one looks like it has the reg straight after it though. Not sure what that's about.




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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 05:41 PM



Those sensores are water temp, air temp, an EGO sensor and I cant se thru the fingers bit prolly another temp sensor.

The temp sensor are a generic temp sensor used on just about every EFI car apart from Mazdas.
They are NOT polarity sensitive.

The ego can be thrown away. They have a finite life, perhaps 100.000 K's and response becomes sluggish and unpredicdable.

L8tr
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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 05:50 PM



Thanks TSV

So that means the water temp sensor will be replaced with an CHT ??

The air temp sensor goes in the inlet manifold, probably before the TB ??




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posted on October 25th, 2006 at 07:35 PM



Yep, looks just like mine. Show me how to do it!

EDIT

I think "Ratty"'s thread has good info on the 'conversion' of coolant temp to CHT

[ Edited on 25-10-2006 by VWCOOL ]




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posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 12:40 AM



Ooooh goody! Another conversion.

Wiring loom is simple once you have spent some time studying the wiring diagrams and you know which sensor goes with which plug. GM did some strange things with their wiring... I'm still trying to work out why they bothered to connect the fuel pump via the oil pressure switch!? :duh

I went to the local (Southport) public Library and photocopied the wiring diagram from a Gregory's manual. It was a great help. Copy the engine management chapter too - it's useful for checking sensors.

I agree with TSV in regards to the identification of the sensors. Use a 3 or 4 wire heated EGO as the mounting location will probably be too far down the exhaust for a single wire (non-heated) EGO to remain hot enough to be accurate at all times.

In the Camira and the Commodore the Manifold Air Temp (MAT) sensor is mounted very close to the intake ports on the head (ie: after the TB). Some people have reported problems with heat soak with the sensor in this location, which causes the sensor to report higher than actual temps. Most people recommend mounting this sensor further away from the engine, but still after the TB. I mounted this sensor in my brothers conversion in the plenum chamber (where the factory cold start injector normally fits). In this location its 'miles' away from the heat given off by the head, but still in the air that is 'next-in-line' to be drawn into the engine.

For a CHT sensor I used a 'Temp Sender II' from a factory EFI system (type III or IV). It screws into the top of the cylinder head, beside the intake port - check to see if either of your heads has the threaded hole for this sensor as some don't. The Temp Sender II is fairly inexpensive compared to other alternatives. I ended up having to use a resistor in line with the temp sensor to bring the higher temp readings down to what the ECU considers normal - despite what others will try to tell you, doing this has no effect on the cold start. I can supply all the info and research on this subject if you would like to see it.

Looks to me like the loom came out of an auto Camira - you will have to spend some time trying to make sense of/removing the torque converter lock-up wiring ... unless you are planning on fitting an auto too?

I have a few files that cover the Camira wiring loom if you would like them. I could even scan the relevant pages of the wiring diagram that I used... just let me know.

Please keep us up to date... I'm looking forward to this one!

R :)

[ Edited on 1-11-2006 by ratty 63 ]




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posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 12:45 AM



I just realised what the temp sender on the left is in the last photo - its the temp sender for the dash gauge. It's not connected to the EFI system so not of any use here...

R :)




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posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 05:52 AM



Ratty, Astro, the Holdens/Delco use the oil pressure switch as a 'back-up' for the EFI fuel pump. It is normally signalled from the PCM. I don't think it's a 'crash situation' fuel pump cut-off, but it may be...



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posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 07:37 AM



Thanks Rossco

I think I need to invest in a Gregory's manual :thumb

I am in the throws of decidingwhich manifolds to use. Both are from CB Performance, either the factory-type end castings with the injector bosses in them (neat and tidy, but not an ideal design as far as inlet system volume is concerned); or the IDF-style manifolds with the injector bosses on the inboard side (injector position not as good but able to design a better inlet system with individual runners).

Ragtop (I think) used the factory-style end castings, so I would like to hear more about his experiences if it's back on the road.




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posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 08:34 AM



Use the individual runner, even if you have to weld some bosses onto some good manifolds.

Bergs may also have some better quality manifolds that wont restrict your engine,
and are a shorter profile to fi in your engine bay.

CB make a runner that has a straighter shot, but I am unsure wether it has nozzle bosses.

Bugpack make a real nice tall IDF manifold too.




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posted on November 5th, 2006 at 02:32 PM



Nice project! Keep us posted.



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posted on November 6th, 2006 at 08:02 PM



was their any particular reason why you got this out of a camira?
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posted on November 6th, 2006 at 08:34 PM



Yep: the dissy fits the VW with minor maching (the drive tang is the same) and Kalmaker software (as used by Holden Commodore high-performance tuners) allows it to be tuned to suit the VW



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posted on November 12th, 2006 at 04:47 PM



While I'm in the process of designing the inlet system and having it made, I am hoping to complete the fuel system. I am planning on having a small surge pot under the rear near the gearbox. What low-pressure fuel pump should I get? Some people have posted opinions here, some are noisy, some are $$$y. Which one should I get?



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posted on November 15th, 2006 at 12:42 PM



I picked up a small rotary style low pressure pump from a swap in Toowoomba - it is very quiet.

I have heard that these pumps are a little more expensive than your Carter pumps, but much quieter. My Brothers conversion used a Carter pump - it is noticable when the car is at idle, but once the revs are up you can't hear it.

Does anyone know what kind of pressure a single point injection system runs? Perhaps a pump from the 1.6 Pulsar or 1.8 Camira (JD) may be a better alternative for second hand pumps....

R :)




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posted on November 15th, 2006 at 09:26 PM



Depends on the system but in the vicinity of 35 to 40psi. base (zero vacuum) pressure.
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posted on November 20th, 2006 at 05:23 PM



Update .....

I think that rather than buy a surge tank and try and find somewhere to place it I would get the fuel tank modified.

I have taped a plastic container over the outlet and placed the tank back in the car to see if the tank extension would foul on anything. It didn't so I will have the tank modified.

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv12.JPG

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv13.JPG

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv14.JPG

While I was at it I thought I'd try and sort out where the HP fuel pump would go.

Right here on the shelf under the fuel tank. Hole and gromet in the side of the tunnel. Replace the old line with new stuff but in the same location and it will be the return line, back into the fuel tank extension.

(I won't be using that aluminium strap as the bracket either!)

http://home.people.net.au/~astro/images/eficonv16.JPG




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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 10:49 AM



An update

After doing a bit more research I have discovered that:

1. if I use the Delco/Kalmaker pakage I still have to retain a distributor. I want to get rid of the dizzy all together, so that plan won't work.

2. The final cost of the Delco/Kalmaker package is comparable with aftermarket systems.

So I have narrowed it ECU choice down to 2 at this stage:

EMS Stinger
http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/products.htm 

or

Link G3
http://www.linkecu.com/products/engine-management/lemg3-whatdoesitdo 

Both of these systems will fire the twin ignition off the crank only, with wasted spark. Therefore doing away with the need for a dizzy (and cam angle sensor).

I have also found a local dyno shop that sells EMS, and has used Link with good results.

I am waiting on some late model FI beetle end castings from OS. When they arrive I can have the intake system finalised.

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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 11:49 AM



Are they mexi fi?



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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 12:12 PM



Yep. They have a better volume for EFI than the CB "modified" end castings. Also Dangerous Dave suggested the CB ones could be restrictive.

Remember, this is going onto a daily driver (not a racer) with a designed red-line of 5500. That being said, the end of the runners (injector end) will probably still need a tidy up.




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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 01:16 PM



I am so watching this thread!

I have a dead camira up the road that I am going to lift my carton of beer offer on :lol:

I have the t1 engine, my workbench is built and ready for paint and hardwood top.

What $$ did you end up paying for the mexi manifolds etc in freight? I have been looking for them
from a mexi wrecker but communication has lapsed...

Planning bigger barrels, fi, air con and alternator..

kkk




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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 01:36 PM



$249 US - landed



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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 10:12 PM



Astro, make sure you place a strainer in between the tank and the pump. This is not a filter as they are too restrictive to place there. Make sure it is a strainer. Then a filter after the pump. The pumps dont actually suck any fuel and need to be gravity fed. It is a misconception that they suck fuel. T54 ;)



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posted on January 8th, 2007 at 10:27 PM



havn't heard too many good stories about EMS system a lot of tuners don't want to touch them as they find them difficult to tune properly i havent too much about the link system but do know its very popular in NZ and ther is quite a few guys over here starting to use them



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posted on January 9th, 2007 at 07:15 AM



Thanks guys.

I am about to get in and finish the fuel system in quick-time, now that I have found a local tuner.




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posted on January 9th, 2007 at 07:15 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by 56astro
Also Dangerous Dave suggested the CB ones could be restrictive.



I may not have made myself clear,
I was refering to the restriction of ANY "end casting" and single butterfly,
flowing less air than a dual carb manifold.

I have no experience with the CB end castings, but know that a centre mounted single butterfly will make less power
than two separate throttle bodies on IDF or IDA style manifolds.
(on a turbo application, this may not be the case)

But as you said it is your daily driver, so this loss of power will not concern you.




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posted on January 9th, 2007 at 07:18 AM



Thanks Dave.

I have looked into the CFM capacity of the Camira TB, and it flows more air than the 1915 can consume at 5500.




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posted on January 9th, 2007 at 08:12 AM



hello 56astro

im currently setting up efi on my bug i have bought a michrotech lt10s and using it in conjuction with a mazda 13turbo CAS.
the shaft on the CAS is being machined down as we speak to suit the type 1 engine, the efi will be running sequetialy
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posted on January 9th, 2007 at 09:56 AM



Nice one 76bug.

Got any more details.




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21.0.00012207INSERT INTO ubb_guestcount (ipaddress, onlinetime) VALUES ('34.239.150.57', '1618175700')
22.0.00018597SELECT * FROM ubb_themes WHERE themeid = '1'
23.0.00011086SELECT * FROM ubb_pluglinks ORDER BY displayorder ASC
24.0.00012493SELECT id FROM ubb_banned WHERE ((ip1 = '34' OR ip1 = '-1') AND (ip2 = '239' OR ip2 = '-1') AND (ip3 = '150' OR ip3 = '-1') AND (ip4 = '57' OR ip4 = '-1')) AND NOT (ip1 = '-1' AND ip2 = '-1' AND ip3 = '-1' AND ip4 = '-1')
25.0.00047207SELECT fid, type, name, fup, status, private, userlist, password FROM ubb_forums WHERE private != '5' AND private != '3' AND private != '2' AND userlist = '' AND password = '' AND status = 'on' ORDER BY displayorder
26.0.00014091SELECT themeid, name FROM ubb_themes
27.0.00100994SELECT name, template FROM ubb_templates WHERE name IN ('functions_bbcode', 'functions_bbcodeinsert', 'functions_smilieinsert_smilie', 'functions_smilieinsert', 'viewtopic_reply', 'viewtopic_quickreply', 'viewtopic', 'viewtopic_invalid', 'viewtopic_modoptions', 'viewtopic_newpoll', 'viewtopic_newtopic', 'viewtopic_poll_options_view', 'viewtopic_poll_options', 'viewtopic_poll_submitbutton', 'viewtopic_poll', 'viewtopic_post', 'viewtopic_post_email', 'viewtopic_post_site', 'viewtopic_post_icq', 'viewtopic_post_aim', 'viewtopic_post_msn', 'viewtopic_post_yahoo', 'viewtopic_post_search', 'viewtopic_post_profile', 'viewtopic_post_pm', 'viewtopic_post_ip', 'viewtopic_post_repquote', 'viewtopic_post_report', 'viewtopic_post_edit', 'viewtopic_post_delete', 'viewtopic_post_attachmentimage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment', 'viewtopic_post_attach_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_attimg_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_sig', 'viewtopic_post_nosig', 'viewtopic_printable', 'viewtopic_printable_row', 'viewtopic_multipage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment_none', 'viewforum_rules', 'viewtopic_post_blog', 'viewtopic_post_rpg', 'viewforum_mpn_info', 'viewtopic_next_prev_links', 'viewtopic_captcha', 'css', 'error', 'footer', 'footer_querynum', 'footer_load', 'footer_phpsql', 'footer_totaltime', 'header', 'message', 'meta_tags', 'shadow', 'shadow2')
28.0.00027490SELECT t.tid, t.fid, t.subject, t.views, t.replies, t.closed, t.topped, l.uid as lp_uid, l.username as lp_user, l.dateline as lp_dateline, l.pid as lp_pid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid WHERE t.tid = '57814'
29.0.00020814SELECT * FROM ubb_forums WHERE fid='57' AND status='on'
30.0.00014901SELECT code, url FROM ubb_smilies WHERE type = 'smiley'
31.0.00009894SELECT find, replace1 FROM ubb_words
32.0.00015402SELECT id, title, posts, stars, allowavatars, avatarrank FROM ubb_ranks
33.0.00019002UPDATE ubb_threads SET views = views+1 WHERE tid = '57814' LIMIT 1
34.0.00071597SELECT COUNT(pid) FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '57814'
35.0.00959992SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 57814 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline < x.dateline AND t.fid = '57' ORDER BY l.dateline DESC LIMIT 1
36.0.00906205SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 57814 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline > x.dateline AND t.fid = '57' ORDER BY l.dateline ASC LIMIT 1
37.0.00028396SELECT vote_id FROM ubb_vote_desc WHERE topic_id = '57814'
38.0.00087690SELECT pid FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '57814' ORDER BY pid LIMIT 0, 30
39.0.00163913SELECT * FROM ubb_attachments WHERE pid IN('548468', '548609', '548611', '548618', '548620', '548682', '551376', '551377', '551386', '551410', '551421', '552469', '552958', '552974', '554607', '555521', '555690', '557027', '562826', '562841', '562851', '562862', '562865', '562991', '562997', '563031', '563032', '563033', '563043', '563055')
40.0.00155306SELECT p.*, m.*,w.time FROM ubb_posts p LEFT JOIN ubb_members m ON m.username = p.author LEFT JOIN ubb_whosonline w ON p.author = w.username WHERE p.fid = '57' AND p.tid = '57814' ORDER BY p.pid ASC LIMIT 0, 30