| [ Total Views: 1280 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 58091 ] |
|
|
 aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 01:08 PM |
|
|
Engine rebuild - what to ask the mechanic?
Hi there!
Hey, I'm going to bring my spare APxxx 1800 TypeIV in to a dude to have it rebuilt. Then I'll do the swap into my Bay; the rebuild's a bit beyond
me. Anyway, I want to know what to check with the mechanic and what I can look out for on my crappy spare motor to point out for special attention.
For example, I'll check if he uses rebuilt or new heads. I understand that new heads are used, but is brand (ie, who made them) important?
P&C's?
Fuel pump?
Oil cooler - new or flushed?
What to have balanced?
I'll get my spare carbies rebuilt too (as in, rebushed and whatever, not just a new pump diaphragm and gasket). What to check there?
Any ideas and suggestions appreciated. I am rather positive and optimistic (naive?) so I would most likely just assume he's doing a good job and
probably not know better if he wasn't.:P I want a smooth and long-lived motor, not something souped-up. She gets regular attention (oil and valves
etc...).
Cheers, A.
Oh I did search before posting this, sorry if it's a thing that comes up a lot... But the search function on this forum is so pathetically woeful I
got nothing. "Engine AND rebuild" got nothing, for example. I found a few other interesting posts using other quieries, but not really what I was
after.
|
|
|
 Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 01:23 PM |
|
|
AMC are really the only choice for new heads - BUT their valve seats are rubbish.
People say 2nd hand heads are rubbish but i know that Jax's 1800 rebuilt heads are respected in the circles i moove in
German bearings and P&Cs
balance all moving parts - crank, flywheel, rods and pistons
Ask what compression ratio he is going to get the motor set at. This can be difficult for the novice.
You get a deck height - the gap between the top of the piston and the top of the barrell
Then there is the volume of the head. Small deck and a head volume is better.
These make up the CR
have a look here
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/specgeninfo/calcs.htm
Changing deck without using spacers is difficult.
Changing head volume you need to either flycut to reduce or dig away to open up.
Ask what cam he will use
Well - that is my 2c
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
Posts: 3616
Threads: 361
Registered: September 3rd, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: West of Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 01:53 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
People say 2nd hand heads are rubbish but i know that Jax's 1800 rebuilt heads are respected in the circles i moove in
|
:thumb
If you don't want new heads Jax recos can be trusted.
|
|
|
ctefeh
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 479
Threads: 30
Registered: April 23rd, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: SiddaKnee nowadayz
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: grimly determined
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 01:59 PM |
|
|
Ancilliaries
I'd also question about what parts they intend to re-use from your motor or ask for a detailed breakdown of what will be done. There is a massive gap
between a re-co long block and a turnkey motor.
Regards
Ctefeh
|
|
|
Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 02:12 PM |
|
|
Also ask what followers he is going to use with the cam
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
Bishop of Volkswagenism
Hairy Gutted Sloth
Posts: 3389
Threads: 29
Registered: September 6th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: TownsvilleTropical North QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Grow a brain...walls don't hit back...
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 02:13 PM |
|
|
Everything mentioned above.Also get in WRITING all the waranty details before you pay for the engine.Make sure the "mechanic" has done a lot of VW
engines and ask if you can have contact with past customers...just for piece of mind.
tssnq.com.au
|
|
|
bus914
Custom Title Time!
Posts: 1230
Threads: 233
Registered: August 29th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Central Coast
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Could be worse
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 02:49 PM |
|
|
Also, if your rebuild includes anything that isn't stock it could be beneficial to establish that your mechanic has had previous success with the
combo, and isn't just experimenting at your expense.
|
|
|
koolkarmakombi
Veteran Volks Folk
enkarmarising
Posts: 2078
Threads: 158
Registered: June 16th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: viva brisvegas
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: do you see the bats?
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 03:22 PM |
|
|
first of all work out how much money you want to spend.
Then work out who you want to give it to.
It may be worth getting a few detailed quotes to ensure comparison of apples....
This disclaimer does not reflect the thoughts or opinions of either myself, my company, my friends, or my dog: don't quote me on that; don't
quote me on anything; this disclaimer is subject to change without notice; text is slightly enlarged to show detail; resemblance to actual persons,
living or dead, is unintentional and coincidental; dry clean only; do not bend, fold, or mutilate; anchovies or jalapenos added to this disclaimer
upon request; your mileage may vary; no substitutions are allowed; for a limited time only while supplies last; offer void where prohibited; this
disclaimer is provided "as is" without any warranties expressed or implied
|
|
|
toplessbug
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 879
Threads: 128
Registered: August 27th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisvegas QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: waiting for my lotto win
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 04:29 PM |
|
|
There is a HUGE amount of info here http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1
or here http://www.tunacan.net/t4/
be very carefull and read read read
also jax heads are good and be fastidious about cam selection,you may find it better to change to 2lt to move the bus :beer:beer:beer
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 05:42 PM |
|
|
Wow, quick responses! Go Team AVD! Thanks.
I have had a good read of the tunacan site, cheers. Righto, german P&Cs and bearings. I'll go stock cam and stuff (no hydraulics in '74), and I'll
check on the lifters. I was planning on new heads - is the problem with these dropped valves? I presume that there are measures I can take to reduce
the risk, such as regular adjustments (which I do already anyway) and not overheating it.
EDIT: Oh, I already have a 1.8l motor spare. It's the same case as the 2.0 right, but I'm not sure about the gearbox bellhousing - seems more effort
than it'd be worth I reckon to change to 2l. She's not a camper, just about empty, so quite 'light', for a bus.
I was thinking of Volkspeed in Bayswater, Melbourne. Heard good things about his motors, so I'll go there and have a chat. Then come back here with a
few questions no doubt!
Thanks all, cheers, A.
[ Edited on 1-11-06 by aggri1 ]
|
|
|
Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 06:54 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by aggri1
. I was planning on new heads - is the problem with these dropped valves?
|
The problem is more to do with poor valve seat installation. The seats come loose then get hammered into the head.
If youdo get new heads you should strongly consider getting new valve seats put in straight away.
Read this thread
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=56810#pid538252
There aint that much difference between a 1.8 and a 2.0L
The 1.8 has a better rod ratio (2:1) and as such is a sweeter motor. The 2.0L doesnt perform like a stroker does in a Type 1 situation.
[ Edited on 1-11-2006 by Bizarre ]
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
Scirocco Rare
6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Posts: 8040
Threads: 347
Registered: January 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Time to go Salt lake racing, and actually achieve a result.
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 09:13 PM |
|
|
If you need to tell him/her anything...................then I wouldn't be using them to rebuild the motor.
Do you tell your Doctor how to operate on you ?!
|
|
|
Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 09:41 PM |
|
|
Your right Craig - they should just hand the $$$ over and have faith in the mechanic. :jesus
I NEVER get a second opinion from a doctor - especially if they recommend surgery. They are a doctor. They know best. Never do the wrong thing :thumb
:P:P
Be serious - the buyer should ask questions. You know there are many ways to buid a motor. Mechanics dont always offer choices.
The heads for example. You cant tell me many respectable mechanics wouldnt just wack a set of new heads on???
Balancing - not always offered. Wise choice - costs more. Worth it for some one who is going to keep the motor. Not worth it if you are going to fix
up and sell
Whatever............there are some answers/questions Aurel can make their own mind up
:thumb
[ Edited on 2-11-2006 by Bizarre ]
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
toplessbug
Fahrvergnugen
Posts: 879
Threads: 128
Registered: August 27th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Brisvegas QLD
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: waiting for my lotto win
|
| posted on November 1st, 2006 at 11:36 PM |
|
|
'''''''''DO NOT'''''''''' under any circumstances use a stock cam , they are shit, not metalurlugically but grind .
go back to stf and search and be absolutly certain you get new matching lifters to match the cam or if you are getting it reground make sure the same
reprofiler does the lifters as well
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
|
|
|
xornge666x
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 460
Threads: 15
Registered: September 17th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Providence RI, USA / Melb OZ
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: agnostic
|
| posted on November 2nd, 2006 at 12:47 AM |
|
|
you can not get 1800 P&C kits anymore. You will have to try for 0.5mm oversize pistons and bore the barrels. Make sure they get someone who knows to
clamp the barrels down to machine them. I got the pistons from Tooleys before I moved, so get them to try them if the mechanic says unavailable.
Problem with old heads I believe is the metal is so soft from years of hot/cold that the seats are not held tightly anymore. Everyone I knew in the
industry in Melbourne was using new heads. Although I have heard good things about Jax heads, just never used them...
andrew
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 06:55 AM |
|
|
Hi all, thanks again for your answers, all appreciated.
Cheers, A.
|
|
|
 barls
A.k.a.: Mr indestructible
Super Administrator
Causer of Chaos and Mayhem
Posts: 9470
Threads: 296
Registered: June 22nd, 2004
Member Is Offline
Location: cruising in denistone east
Theme: UltimaBB Streamlined2
Mood: indestructible? and listening to the voices
|
| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 08:32 AM |
|
|
for a cam id talk to richard at v force as i know he supplied me one including the set of lifters for less than i could buy a cam for from others.
|
|
|
dusto81
Officially Full-On Dubber
Posts: 229
Threads: 41
Registered: February 23rd, 2005
Member Is Offline
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on November 3rd, 2006 at 11:13 AM |
|
|
Volkspeed is a good place to go to, the guy is very knowledgeable, you just gotta get him talking and then he's full of good info. And I'm sure
he's rebuilt a million VW engines.
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on November 10th, 2006 at 04:46 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by xornge666x
you can not get 1800 P&C kits anymore.
...
andrew
|
Well Dieter at Volkspeed managed to track down some for me, so I can keep it 1800. Given that I don't want to swap out the gearbox, I think that's
the best option. He said he had a 2liter mated to a previously-1800 box once upon a time, and it used more fuel and he also said (as someone mentioned
here) the 1800s rev nicer.
New AMC heads - he's not had a problem, though I will be very careful about checking valves for a while.
Balanced pistons and volumes.
Seems like a really nice and helpful fellow. :-) Looking forward to the swap, and am researching what else to do while the engine's out (like replace
the grinding throw-out bearing).
Cheers, A.
|
|
|
VWCOOL
23 Windows of Awesome
Posts: 5158
Threads: 235
Registered: June 19th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: In the shed... Lake Macquarie NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: happy to help
|
| posted on November 10th, 2006 at 05:40 PM |
|
|
the standard 1800s revs nice because they have larger valves, not because they are 1800, IYKWIM. Any VW tech should know that
Add the 10% capacity while you can...!
[ Edited on 10-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
Pay your debts, CxxT
|
|
|
xornge666x
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 460
Threads: 15
Registered: September 17th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Providence RI, USA / Melb OZ
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: agnostic
|
| posted on November 11th, 2006 at 01:40 AM |
|
|
Dieter is definately the best for recos in Vic. He uses the same oversize KS pistons and rebores the cylinders.
Ive never had problems with his work, ever.
Sometimes a bit of a wait. But you never eat in an empty restraunt do you!!
Im sure you will be happy with his work...
|
|
|
Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
Scirocco Rare
6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Posts: 8040
Threads: 347
Registered: January 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Time to go Salt lake racing, and actually achieve a result.
|
| posted on February 10th, 2007 at 09:08 PM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
the standard 1800s revs nice because they have larger valves, not because they are 1800, IYKWIM. Any VW tech should know that
Add the 10% capacity while you can...!
[ Edited on 10-11-2006 by VWCOOL ]
|
Its actually because they have a shorter stroke.
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on February 12th, 2007 at 07:25 AM |
|
|
This old thread!
Well the motor swap went well except for the Dansk heater box which wasn't square, took me a lot of filing to make that bugger fit.
Wow, is all I can say about the new motor - so smooth and quiet! She can go up hills (not mountains, der!) in 4th gear now! And NO OIL underneath
the bus. NOT A SINGLE DROP, I am so stoked. And, I honestly got less than 11litres per hundred km over the last 1000km with the new motor. Doing
85-90km/h on mostly country roads, but still... I'm happy with that.
Schweeeeet!
Cheers, A.
|
|
|
xornge666x
Wolfsburg Wizard
Posts: 460
Threads: 15
Registered: September 17th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Providence RI, USA / Melb OZ
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: agnostic
|
| posted on February 12th, 2007 at 08:28 AM |
|
|
Good to hear!
|
|
|
woz_mnskmobi
Casual Dubber
Posts: 32
Threads: 0
Registered: September 20th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on February 12th, 2007 at 11:40 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by aggri1
This old thread!
Well the motor swap went well except for the Dansk heater box which wasn't square, took me a lot of filing to make that bugger fit.
Wow, is all I can say about the new motor - so smooth and quiet! She can go up hills (not mountains, der!) in 4th gear now! And NO OIL underneath
the bus. NOT A SINGLE DROP, I am so stoked. And, I honestly got less than 11litres per hundred km over the last 1000km with the new motor. Doing
85-90km/h on mostly country roads, but still... I'm happy with that.
Schweeeeet!
Cheers, A.
|
So what are the details on the engine?
What's stock and what's not?
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on February 13th, 2007 at 07:50 AM |
|
|
It's all bog stock standard 1800 parts. I got new Kolbenschmidt p&c's and a new cluctch kit. AMC heads. Re-using the crappy danish heat exchanger
on one side - last time I buy one of those. Same old dizzy, and carbies tuned for the rooted old motor, just until the rebuilt carbies are
reassembled and tuned. Stock camshaft - I know someone recommended against it, but stock all works together, and when you change this you need to
change that and then that and it goes on and on and I just can't be arsed 'cause the stock motor goes fast enough for me. If I want to hoon I'll
take out the Splitta (hehe, not really policeman!).
You know, this is really weird - last night I was driving along suburban roads, and I started hearing a noise (I preferred the voices actually, this
noise was so unnerving). It occurred at moderate to high (say ~3300RPM) engine speeds, and with very low throttle, as in when deccelerating. Rattle
rattle rattle. It's not valves, but I'm going to check those anyway. Oh man, please can someone tell me it's not a loose rod. I don't know
whether I could face that. (OK, I know, you can't tell me that, but any suggestiong as to what I could do to check anything at all would be
welcome). {EDIT: Oil temp never got above 105*C, and I've revved this motor to 4000RPM ONCE. It's 2500km old now.}
Haha, life is so funny. Can't let it get you down ey?
Cheers, A.
[ Edited on 12-2-07 by aggri1 ]
|
|
|
Bizarre
Super Moderator
The artist formerly known as blue74l
Posts: 12780
Threads: 734
Registered: August 25th, 2002
Member Is Offline
Location: Abbotsford, Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
|
| posted on February 13th, 2007 at 07:59 AM |
|
|
loose tin??
Futue te ipsum!!!
|
|
|
aggri1
A.k.a.: Aurel Griesser
Insano Dub Head
Posts: 824
Threads: 35
Registered: December 3rd, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Eastern Melbourne
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Grey
Mood: ska'd for life
|
| posted on February 13th, 2007 at 11:39 AM |
|
|
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
loose tin??
|
Hehe, thanks dude. Yeah I am going to check all that sort of thing when i get home today, including the intakes and exhaust.
Hopefully something simple, but it sounds like Muirs "Loose Rod" noise, at http://home.arcor.de/silke.fokken/sounds/
:-(
Cheers, A.
EDIT: Oh yay, took all of twenty seconds to diagnose. Turned motor to Cyl1 TDC to adjust valves, took off rocker cover, the second valve I poked at
(inlet on #1) was REALLY loose, hmmm, what're all those metal particles doing in the valve cover, hmmm, what's that sharp bit sticking out there
under the tappet adjustment nut, well well if it isn't a busted valve spring, hmmm, oh yay. Tell ya what, you can never stop learning with these
things ey? I love it!
I guess this means I need to pull the motor.
Frikken' AMC heads - I was warned... about dropping valves. So I religiously adjusted the clearances.
The oil is still lovely and shiny clear caramel without any metal filings/particles, so I am thinking that there's no internal damage. Is this
reasonable? I can't quite imagine what the valve would be doing with a busted spring - it can't move in _that_ far, but I guess I'll see when the
head's off yeah. This would explain the poor running I've experianced recently at least - and I'll have to apologise to the ignition system which
I had been previously accusing of being crap. Hehe.
Should'a made this a new post ey?
[ Edited on 13-2-07 by aggri1 ]
EDIT AGAIN: Hmm, judging by the Samba posts, it can be fixed without taking off the head - in car. Any experience with this from Type IV folks?
[ Edited on 13-2-07 by aggri1 ]
|
|
|
