| [ Total Views: 142208 | Total Replies: 127 | Thread Id: 59063 ] |
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 Keith Haeusler
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| posted on December 23rd, 2006 at 03:32 PM |
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Dedicated nitrous engine.
Hi all,
I have decided im going to build one useing the engine parts i was collecting for turbo. It will be 84 flanged with thickwalled 92`s ( fitted
with je pistons ). Heads are 44 x 40 CE`s. I have either 65mm single TB, 48mm dual TB or 48mm dellortos.
The trans is 002 with sway away axles, 930 cv etc.
The goal is to get the 69 ( i reckon about 850kg ) into the mid 11`s. I wont be useing a half assed system either, i intend on doing it right
the first time.
What are you thoughts on trans gearing, cam profile, compression ratio, valve sizing and induction. Lets here them.
Regards, Keith.
I forgot to add i still want to be able to drive the car every now and then.
[ Edited on 23-12-2006 by Keith Haeusler ]
[ Edited on 24-12-2006 by Keith Haeusler ]
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on December 25th, 2006 at 02:38 AM |
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Here`s my ideas on the gearing. Albins 4.57 002 style r/p with 3.1,1.8,1.26,.93 with 26in tyre.
For the engine i think comp of 9.5-10:1, cam somewhere around 260-270 at 050 and 400 lift (web 86c?). The heads have k800 springs, but are unported
so need to be ported for this application by someone who knows what i need. The valves are the cb racemaster and im not sure on the quality of these
so might swap them out.
The crank,rods and pistons/barrels should be able to handle what i want to do. I have done some research on bearings and can get good quality
heavyduty stuff.
The case is a cb ally with good 10mm studs. Fingers crossed this is up to the task. I`m thinking of selling some stuff and buying a pair of ida`s
for this.
I would guess that done right the motor would make around 170-180hp, so how much nos would i need to reach my goal ( assuming that the chassis
tune is on the money ) 80hp?100hp?
Any ideas,suggestions etc. I`m all ears.
Regards, Keith.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on December 25th, 2006 at 08:36 AM |
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Hi Keith,
The ratios in first and second sound good, but 4th will be a lot of rpm on the street.
If you are happy there, then I think it will be fine for the 1/4 mile.
If that is a stock L model 4th gear, then I would be a little cautious with its strength.
Albins makes good ones for what ever you decide,
and also new crownwheel and pinions too so that you can use the berg hsg
without a spacer or "cut and shut" pinion.
Engine sounds good.
A dedicated nitrous engine should be able to use a 100 shot no worries,
so long as the tuneup is in order.
The heads would be great with some port work, and perhaps a larger
intake valve....although it is a 92 bore hey? I think a 46 may fit....
40 exhaust valve is heaps.
Without a doubt, a nitrous engine likes a wide lobe centre,
so a custom grind cam is in order.
If not, then go for the smaller duration (250 to 260max @ .050").
What ratio rockers do you have planned?
The general trend is to use larger exhaust duration exhaust, but with your exhaust valve this may be unneccesary.
The exhaust lift will not need to be as large as it is on the intake,
and you may like to do this with the lobe rather than the rocker arm.
If you use the 10:1 comp then keep the deck height tight as parts will alow, and use good fuel.
You may be able to use pump fuel even with the nitrous since it has such a cool intake temp.
So I would choose a cam of 250 to 255 intake with about 5 degrees more exhaust duration and 112 to 114 lobe centre.
More later .
Merry Christmas!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on December 25th, 2006 at 09:56 AM |
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Dave,
Thanks for the advice. All the gears will be Albins including the r&p. I have spoken to them about the 4.57. Do you think a .89 or .82 might
be better?. I was concerned about the drop between 3 and 4.
I basically just want to be able to take the kids for a run to the shops, not extended highway trips.
Yes the bore is 92mm. I`m after a good head ported to work on the heads, anyone know someone worthy? The rockers are 1.4`s. I have a cam that
has is ground 112 with 260 at 050 intake but it has less exhaust duration. Better get on the phone to surecams in the new year. I`ll snap a couple of
pics of the build for the engine porn lovers like myself.
Thanks again and Merry Christmas to all
Regards, Keith.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on December 27th, 2006 at 01:33 PM |
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I have been thinking some more about this.
The 4th gear will suit your planned use fine, and the step to it, from 3rd is sweet too.
Do you have your mainshaft yet/
If not, Albins only makes four different 002 style mainshaft, 1/2 combos now,
other than their 1000dollar custom orders.
The 2.82/1.86, 0r the 3.0/2.0 is the closest that they have, and this will make the 2 to 3 rev-drop larger than your current proposal.
I use a 1.81-1.26VW 2 to 3, and it is acceptable, but prob a maximum rev drop with your combo.
Mine has the 4.857 ratio though, and a .89 4th.(.93 would be better).
Perhaps with the 4.57 you may prefer(rather than custom order) :
3.0
2.0
1.35 or 1.29
.93
The currently available 2.82 first(that comes with the 1.86) is prob a little tall,
but if it were me, and with a soft clutch and small cam would be my choice off the gas.
This all assumes that you do not yethave the 3.1/1.8 mainshaft.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on January 9th, 2007 at 12:05 PM |
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Hi again,
So i ordered the 4.57 r&p today, have a 2 month wait until in stock. Now i need to order the rest of the gears. They have as Dave said the
3.0/2.0 and 2.82/1.86 in stock now. Just not sure which way to go. I dont mind paying the extra coin for a custom set either, seeing as i have to wait
anyway.
Also after someone to work on the heads. Does anyone have a head guru that they use and is after some work. Let me know.
I`ve got to get this done for Warick.
Regards, Keith.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on January 9th, 2007 at 02:22 PM |
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Can't wait to see it at warwick Keith! Best of luck with the project ahead....although a lot of it is above my understanding, I appreciate threads
like this to learn from those with much more experience than me!
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 9th, 2007 at 03:46 PM |
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Have a talk with Craig at Crankshaft Engineering Keith. 07 38067488
He taught me everything I know about head stuff, and they have a flow bench in-house(which I have a share in).
Craig has done many sets of Comp Eliminators of late but has a vast experience of all types of VW heads from stock dual ports, right up to the Pauter
and Autocraft heads.
Craig held the ANDRA ss/c record in his all steel '68(glass windows) in 1990,
using VW heads and case, and ran as quick as 11.65@113.8 and 11.50@118(ARPM),
with a car that was close to stock weight.
He is your man, but get in early.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Flintstones
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| posted on January 9th, 2007 at 05:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Keith Haeusler
For the engine i think comp of 9.5-10:1
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With your comp Keith wouldn't it be better to run a little less say up to 9:1 this way you can get more nitrous into the cylinder?
Essentially nitrous is a form of forced induction...
Cheers
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 12:13 PM |
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Thanks everyone for your reply`s.
Dasdubber, this is all new ground for me. It`s quite a learning experience for myself. There is so much info out there i`m having trouble trying to
absorb it all. I will be taking a broom up to Warick incase i need to sweep the engine up off the strip.
Dave, i rang and spoke with Craig and the heads are on their way up. What doesn`t that bloke know. You dont have the number for Shore?cams do you. I
cant find it in the book.
Flintstones, i`m still undecided at this point on the cr. There is alot to learn and from what i understand you can run higher cr with it compared to
turbo.
Regards, Keith.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 10th, 2007 at 05:32 PM |
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http://www.surecam.com.au/
Surecam
Phil Duggan.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 07:05 AM |
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Thanks.
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Flintstones
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| posted on January 11th, 2007 at 06:25 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Keith Haeusler
Flintstones, i`m still undecided at this point on the cr. There is alot to learn and from what i understand you can run higher cr with it compared to
turbo.
Regards, Keith.
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You can run a higher CR (to a point obvioulsy) no probs, it just depends if 100hp shot will be enough, or will you get the urge later on, to up the
ante 
I remember there was a torana years and years ago that was doing nines mainly because of the nitrous setup and the lower CR, don't quote me but I
think it was OzNos' development torrie.
Looking forward to seeing this run in the future.:thumb
Cheers
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 12th, 2007 at 10:29 PM |
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some info might turn up here Keith as this guy continues with his Nos build
http://www.airspeedparts.com/community-forum/index.php?s=3345c70db6d82573c4c9c73ac81ecd9d&act=ST&f=14&t=914&st=160
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noslug
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| posted on January 17th, 2007 at 06:07 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Keith Haeusler
. I`m thinking of selling some stuff and buying a pair of ida`s for this.
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I have recently swapped from 48 DRLAs to IDAs, to be honest, apart from the look I wonder why I did it ?? If you were needing to run more than 42mm
venturis I would swap, barring that I wouldnt.
Im interested in what Nitrous system you will be using, I will be doing a 2332 build through the winter using a RLR/ NEX nitrous set up.
Wizards of nitrous (UK) have some awesome gear and a huge amount of experience.
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on February 4th, 2007 at 03:49 PM |
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Just a completely off the wall thought, but is it worth considering running two diferent fuel systems?
I was thinking running a 9.5:1 CR for 98 octane pump fuel for a snappy response and great power on the street, but then run methanol through the
nitrous fuel nossels with a seperate fuel system.
Methanol will burn cooler, and allow you to run that higher compression and still take a huge NOS hit. Methanol's ability to help resist detonation
will be a bonus for you too. No problems with corrosion too because you won't be running this on the street right? 
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pete wood
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| posted on February 4th, 2007 at 09:51 PM |
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Sorry don't have any pearls of wisdom. Just wanted to say, I was at WSID drags on Aust day for the holden vs ford and there was 6cyl powered LC
torana there with a monsta NOS system on it. Very basic looking motor with triple sus and that was about all. Love to know what was inisde the block.
It pulled something like a low 10 and left the V8 next to it way behind. Very impressive. Love to see what you'll do with your bug once it's sorted.
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noslug
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| posted on February 5th, 2007 at 09:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by iswinkels
Just a completely off the wall thought, but is it worth considering running two diferent fuel systems?
I was thinking running a 9.5:1 CR for 98 octane pump fuel for a snappy response and great power on the street, but then run methanol through the
nitrous fuel nossels with a seperate fuel system.
Methanol will burn cooler, and allow you to run that higher compression and still take a huge NOS hit. Methanol's ability to help resist detonation
will be a bonus for you too. No problems with corrosion too because you won't be running this on the street right?
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Pretty sure it has been done Ian. I was planning on running a seperate pump and lines anyway, would be a matter of a tank I guess. The nitrous does a
good job of cooling the charge, as long as you are injecting liquid it is at least -86 Celsius (boiling point).
I have been advised to blend race fuel with pump while on the bottle, 9.5 CR, FK87 cam... Long way to go, waiting on heads, engine in pieces...
Down here in sunny NZ, we are allowed to run Nitrous on the street, but if I smack my kids Ill go to jail...
[ Edited on 4-2-2007 by noslug ]
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on February 7th, 2007 at 12:35 PM |
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Hi all,
Just a quick post to let you know where im at. The heads are up at Crankshaft Engineering being set up for their intended use by Craig.
We are debating whether to step up to 46mm inlet valve due to the way the heads have been machined by CB. Surecams is grinding me a cam for the
engine as we speak which suits the addition of nitrous to the engine.
My new thickwalled 92`s are lost somewhere between here and the states ( been 3 months now ).
I have been reading anything i can lay my hands on about nitrous, even bought and read the latest book by Wizards of nitrous. I am sold on
their product and will definitely useing it on the bug, along with their nitrous controller.
Have decided on a comp raio of between 9 and 9.5 to 1. Also it will have a dedicated fuel supply but will be sticking with pump or race fuel.
I am going to email a shop in the states called Nor-Cal speed who use and set up the WON systems and the guy is a VW racer to boot.
More later. Regards, Keith.
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davidoconnor
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| posted on February 27th, 2007 at 10:36 PM |
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solonoids/pulsoids?
Keith,
I've heard that the WON nitrous systems use an entirely different solonoid to most US systems. What seems to be the main problem with the NOS type
of solonoid?
Is it O.K. with just a straight hit of Nitrous and not progressive or pulsed?
What would be the maximum HP hit before going to a progressive system?
Cheers,
DOC
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 08:21 AM |
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Hi David,
From what i have read and understand ( remember im no expert ) the WON system uses a pulsoid which is capable of being pulsed efficiently
to allow the use of a progressive hit system. The generic US brand solenoids struggle in this department.
Check out this : http://www.forum.nitrous-advice.com/multi-stage-vs-pulsed-progressive-vs-revo...
Good article as to why a progressive system is easier on the engine, driveline etc than a fixed hit. I am sure a fixed hit will work as
plenty of people have and are running that type successfully. From what i have read a progressive allows one to run a higher hp shot as it ramps the
power in.
As for the max hp hit before you need a progressive system i don`t know. I would say it depends on engine components, tune, type etc. At a
guess on a vw between 75 - 100hp?
Regards, Keith. Send me your adress and i`ll lend you a good book to read on the WON system.
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davidoconnor
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 06:43 PM |
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Cheers Keith thanks for the offer! I've only just recently placed an order through our local Motoring Bookshop, so I'm set. Knowledge is power
right!!
Look forward to catching up again in Warwick
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 07:13 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by davidoconnor
Knowledge is power right!!
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Horse "power"?
NOW.... where can I get some more knowledge?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Boostn
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 09:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
| Quote: | Originally
posted by davidoconnor
Knowledge is power right!!
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Horse "power"?
NOW.... where can I get some more knowledge?
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The only thing I don't get is how do they get all the knowledge into that blue bottle?
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hellbugged
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| posted on February 28th, 2007 at 09:59 PM |
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might be sumthin' here too Kieth.........
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/n2otheory.htm
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greenman
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| posted on March 1st, 2007 at 06:06 AM |
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They call it Laughing Gas because it brings so much FUN !!!!
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noslug
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| posted on March 1st, 2007 at 06:32 AM |
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There is a guy on Cal look com who was running a 1916 and a 150 HP fixed hit (more nitrous power than the engine made). You can soften the hit in a
non progressive system by running long lines from solenoid to nozzle. I have read of some V8 guys running 6 ft plus lines.
There is no doubt the WON system is the best.
Heres another Forum (V8 based) http://www.americandragracing.com/xmb1/forumdisplay.php?fid=26
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Stanley
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| posted on March 1st, 2007 at 07:18 PM |
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How's this coming along keith. Keen to see the buildup as it progresses.
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Boostn
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| posted on March 3rd, 2007 at 12:07 AM |
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Another way of "softening the hit" is to run the nos line after the solenoid through or close to something hot like oil. That make the initial hit
not so hard like not purging the system. Then once the fresh gas comes through you have full hit. Also keeping that line after the solenoid longish
softens the hit too. Or you can run a staged system. Hit it then hit it harder, or more in the next gear.......... so many options.
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Keith Haeusler
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| posted on March 11th, 2007 at 06:46 PM |
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Hi all,
First off thanks to everyone who has replied with their knowledge. I have decided to go with the WON system ( direct port ) and use a
progressive controller which has the capabilities to tune the nitrous from inside the car to suit my needs. It can basically do what Boostn mentioned
above electronically.
I decided to go custom mainshaft so i have a couple of month wait for that. Ring and pinion is still 2 weeks away.
Sure cams has finished the cam. Just need to pick it up. Heads are still away, manifolds just arrived so i need to send them up to Craig. Thick
walled cylinders ( second set ) still arent here!
So im basically at a standstill with the engine until all my parts get here. In the interim i am working on the body. When i work out how to
attach photo`s i will post some here. ( i`m arsed if i can get them to attach )
Thats about it, still reading and trying to learn as much as i can for a bit of a heads up before i attempt this.
Regards, Keith.
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