| [ Total Views: 337440 | Total Replies: 76 | Thread Id: 61265 ] |
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 pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 12:55 PM |
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the best place for your radiator is.... (now, how do I get it to warm up?)
THE FRONT OF THE CAR!!!
I have finally succumbed to common sense.:o
click here to see the process...
http://www.geocities.com/peterwood7311/buggyproject/buggyproject16.html
[ Edited on 10-4-07 by pete wood ]
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MickH
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 01:21 PM |
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They're a bit s l o w down there in Blacktown........'bout time:P
tssnq.com.au
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pete wood
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 01:47 PM |
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I might be slow, but at least I don't play the banjo with all SIX fingers. 
Now I'm off to steal some broken washing machines...which reminds me. Someone graffitied my letter box this morning! And he couldn't spell either.
Wrote "TRID". I think he meant "trip". That's how slow they are round here! What is the world coming too? 
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aussiebaja
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 06:16 PM |
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now youll just have to be carefull that you dont come down too hard on the front in case the radiator hits
BETTER TO BE THOUGHT A FOOL THAN TO OPEN YOUR MOUTH AND REMOVE ALL DOUBT:puke
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pete wood
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| posted on March 20th, 2007 at 07:37 PM |
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nope, the beam will bit the ground before the radiator does.
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sand kombi
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 08:58 AM |
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Yeah, but what about all sand, dirt, rocks and stuff, when the beam digs into the ground.
MIKE.
VW'S DON'T LEAK OIL, THEY JUST LEAVE THEIR MARK !!!
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pete wood
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 11:02 AM |
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don't worry, it will be getting a bash plate underneath it to prevent them getting in. Also, I'l be putting some panels on the sides to stop things
being flung in behind the radiator by the front wheels. 
a number of people on here have radiators in the front of the buggies. more still have radiators UNDER their buses and they have no dramas.
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cram
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 04:32 PM |
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Its really cleaned up the back end...plus a few more kgs in the front which can't be a bad thing. Good move!
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ricola
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 05:42 PM |
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That looks much better Pete  I bet it even works too!
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pete wood
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| posted on March 21st, 2007 at 05:43 PM |
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With the radiator and ducting on the back and the decklid covering it there was 20kg of weight at the furthest rear point of the car. That was without
the water, which I estimate at another 5kg or so. That weight is now forward of the front beam by 2 inchs. So yes I'm looking forward to an
improvement in handling. Next up the battery will move forward as well. Probably into the passenger side footwell. that should help balance 97kg of
driver on the other side of the car. I really need to do some more bike riding and drink less Corona. :o
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 01:56 PM |
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next question....
How cool is safe?
the new setup works so well that it won't warm up properly. Even today (26deg outside) sitting in traffic, it only got up over 75deg once and when we
got going it went back down to 70 and stayed there. On friday, I drove along the M4 for 10 minutes at 90km/h in 3rd gear @ 4000rpm and it struggled to
get up to 70degs.
So How can I get it to warm up?
I don't mind it running cool, but I worry about the oil working properly at such a low temp.
Just so you know, the thermostat is rated at 76deg and now has a 8mm hole where the flipper valve was.
Ay ideas? Should I run different oil? Do I need a hotter thermostat? Is 65deg ok for long periods?
[ Edited on 12-4-07 by pete wood ]
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 02:06 PM |
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Hi Peter
Do you have an oil temp gauge? Cool oil is the motor killer. Maybe you need to go back to a undrilled stock thermostat. I had very small hole in my
WBX one to help prevent airlocks, much smaller than 8 mm. So pull thermostat out and put a pop rivet in the hole that you have, then drill the
smallest hole that you can manageand try that.
Failing this you could try blanking some off the radiator face off after you have finished making the bash panels etc.
Steve
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 02:16 PM |
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I don't have an oil temp guage. how small was the hole in your old thermostat?
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 02:52 PM |
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Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller
hole.
Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?
What thermostat does it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?
When you let it sit and idle, does the thermo come on?
If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but
it will always come on.
What temp does the thermo come on?
Is your heater loop open or closed?
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 03:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Baja Wes
Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller
hole.
Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?
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aftermarket in the same place as the EJ unit. Works ok. I don't think the guage is the issue.
| Quote: | What thermostat does
it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?
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The thermostat is the stocker for this motor. It reads 76deg on it. I replaced it when I built the car with a new one, but it's the same model as the
oldy.
| Quote: | When you let it sit
and idle, does the thermo come on?
If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but
it will always come on.
What temp does the thermo come on?
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Yes, the thermos come on, but it takes a long time. Like half an hour or so just sitting and idling. I've set the switch on the thermos to come on
when the temp guage reads 90degs. It's only reached this temp while sitting still. Once you are driving, it won't get hot, even in traffic.
| Quote: | Is your heater loop
open or closed?
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The heater is an open loop setup. It's always circulating, but I have an extra loop the heat is hooked into and a tap that allows the water to
circulate in that loop. Look at my heater post and you'll see what I mean.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=53365#pid554267
I can't believe this in a way, I've spent so many years bitching about it getting hot and not cooling and now I have the opposite problem. I think
the problem is the sheer mass of water in the new system. It takes a long time to heat it all and the long side pipes shed heat all on there own.
I've seriously thought about covering them in lagging to help the issue. It's all so dumb. You have to laugh I guess.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 04:57 PM |
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Usually things don't work for weird reasons.
76 deg is pretty cool, mine is 82deg (although not a suby). 76 is what it is going to try to keep the water temp at.
I would be suprised if you could overcool a car using the water flowing through an 8mm hole. Was the thermostat gasket still ok, you didn't damage it
in the drilling process?
The other option is the gauge or sending is playing up. Terry's car said it was overheating at one stage, but it was just a dodgy gauge / sender.
Your guage could have always been reading 10 degrees low (meaning it used to be really hot).
It may be something weird and unexpected. Just yesterday I saw a car that had an alternator that wouldn't work. It turned out the powder coated
alternator brackets were preventing the alternator from earthing to the engine block....
[ Edited on 10-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 06:34 PM |
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I've got a mate who's a fridgy who's got a special laser thingo, I'll borrow that and test it with that, but the pipes don't feel very hot
either, so I think the guage is right. 
New thermostat time I think.
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MickH
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 07:02 PM |
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If you replace the thermostat.....use a GENUINE one and make sure it is installed the right way...the wax goes to the inside closest to the
recirculation/bypass line.
tssnq.com.au
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pete wood
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 07:07 PM |
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ok mate, I think it's installed that way at the mo. can't sure if it's a genuine one though.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 09:51 PM |
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if you use an IR gun to measure the temp (or other surface method) just remember the water temp will be hotter than any outer surface temps.
Aluminium conducts quite well so the outside temp will be similar but still slightly colder than the water inside. Rubber hoses will be colder on the
outside.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 10th, 2007 at 09:58 PM |
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just drive it harder, and rev the ring out of it:P
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ricola
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| posted on April 11th, 2007 at 02:11 AM |
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An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, you may as well not have one! Get a stock one back in and let it do it's job of
controlling the engine temperature.. If you need better bleeding do it some other way, with extra bleeds or something..
Rich
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Brad
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| posted on April 11th, 2007 at 11:30 PM |
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mmmm
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ricola
An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
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Can you explain why this is so ??
The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make
it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you
also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??
Ok back to the issue at hand..
75 is to cool, get an 82 one for it, as Mick H said only get a Subaru on and not an aftermarket one. If you system bleeds up ok put it in with the
hole and see how it goes. As I said before the hole is to allow the air to get through.
The EJ has a thermostat bypass which is much greater than 8mm which allows the coolant to move through the system all the time even when it is shut,
funnily enough through the heater core which you are already aware of.
I am guessing from your post that your ECU does not control the thermo fan ?? If this is the case, why ?? I would change it back as the ECU is much
better at is than a Davies Craig temp prob and variable resistor.
The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see
what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge
one.
In Short replace your thermostat… from memory you have had your EJ hot a few times so it is probably stuffed by now anyway.
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ElusiveStranger
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 09:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see
what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge
one.
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That could depend on your specs, VSS calibrated for wheel size...
Not too sure what your Scooby specs are over there but I posted this scan from a 2002 Impreza manual. It's the 2l NA model.
http://www.vwkd.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=2408&highlight=#2408
[edit: bottom of page 1]
Keep up the good work Pete :thumb
[ Edited on 12-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
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MickH
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 12:47 PM |
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I could go on and babble useless information,but I wont:alien. Pete,get the 82 degree one as Brad has said.You don't run A/C and excessive loads so
the cooler thermostat isn't required. When my Kombi was converted it had been installed with both an outlet temperature sender of the water returning
to the radiator and an inlet temperature sender,the water returning to MAINTAIN the engine temperature,from the radiator. The difference between the 2
temperatures,when hot and at operating temperature was about 10 degrees. I also had an 8mm hole in my genuine thermostat and had no dramas. With your
setup,now being more efficient than it previously was I would do as has been suggested, a new hotter thermostat. My buggy has an 8mm hole in the
thermostat as well...and it heats up fine:P Aren't you glad I didn't babble on...:jesus
ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer
[ Edited on 12-4-07 by MickH ]
tssnq.com.au
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Brad
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| posted on April 12th, 2007 at 10:19 PM |
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the 2002 N/A is an OBD2 so the ECU has muliple settings for the thermo fan. Most OBD1 EJ's like Pete's only have one setting, although some of them
have two, usually when you mod the loom you join them togeather so they both turn the fan on although only the lower 85 deg one is really used.
From what I have read / played with they VSS has no input on the OBD1's. The OBD2's are heaps cooler and have a lot more adjustment compaired to the
OBD1/
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ricola
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 12:46 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ricola
An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
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Can you explain why this is so ??
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The heater is part of the bypass circuit, which is a smaller volume of coolant that is used until the engine gets up to operating temperature, the
size of this bypass is irrelevant as it is seperated from the main radiator and pipe volume. If you put a big hole in the thermostat you effectively
have the complete circuit of coolant to warm up. Most engine wear is on the warm up (not to mention more fuel) and if you have all this extra volume
to warm up before the engine is at its optimum operating temperature it will obviously take much longer and result in more wear.
The key is to get the thermostat bulb to see a good flow of the bypass circuit so it can do its job of regulating the engine temperature, drilling a
hole in it stops it doing its job of getting the engine up to operating temperature as quickly as possible.
In hot climates you may not register such a big difference, as the coolant temperature increase will be relatively smaller. In cold climates you get
cold coolant on the other side of the thermostat, together with heat removed from the bypass by the heater, so it always sees a lag of the real engine
temperature. I had this problem on my last EJ20t powered car. A lot of people also have problems when using engines with return mounted thermostats in
the middle or rear of the car, a thermostat mounted to the outlet is a good fix for this and is what I plan to do on my WRX karmann cabrio.. Another
fix is to space out the thermostat and direct to it a better bypass flow, some vanagon guys in Canada sell a kit for this which apparently works very
well.
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ElusiveStranger
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 01:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by MickH
ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer
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I'll have a beer, cheers! 
My VSS runs from the front wheel, the fan kicks in when I pop the wheels up (I had to install the VSS as my Ign kept cutting out on a constant throttle setting)
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pete wood
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 08:49 AM |
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To whom it may concern,
I owe Brad a massive apology. I have inadvertantly made him look like an idiot when he was only trying to help me with his experience and
expertize.
I publicly ask brad's forgiveness. I'm very sorry his advice and my comments were taken out of context and that his business has been brought into a
bad light because of this. I have had nothing but positive experiences with COR and I rang him for his advice precisely because of this.
To all the guys arguing with him, please stop. He has built lots of EJ powered cars and has hours of experience.
I don't know exactly why my car is not warming up as intended, but whatever the problem is, it's not Brad's fault.
I think the problem has to do with lower temps in Sydney and an extra long heater circuit in my car.
Again, I say, Brad please accept my sincerest apologies.
Pete :blush
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tassupervee
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| posted on April 13th, 2007 at 09:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
| Quote: | Originally
posted by ricola
An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
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Can you explain why this is so ??
The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make
it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you
also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??
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Ummm...........well actually, I actually fully agree with Ricola.
Back in the V6 Capri days, we were chasing overheating issues and tried this approach after being advised to, along with the nafarious practise of
removing the thermostat altogether!!! Which BTY, caused the engine to overheat even further!! And experimented with different sized and number of
holes in the thermostat flange ranging from a single 3mm and up to many 6mm holes around the flange.
Basically, it all achieved nothing apart from causing the engine to run too cold when not run hard, say, down long hills and experience very wide and
savage temp variations and seriously slowed the engine from initial heating up.
However, it did make filling the system pretty foolproof!!!
This is because so much of the water pressure differential, created by a closed thermostat, necessary to force the water thru the internal bypass
system, including a heater core, was lost.
The water made its way along the path of least resistance which was the holes in the thermostat and went out into the radiator, introducing relatively
cold water into an already cold engine, rather than forcing water around and around the engine sans radiator making warmup a really looooong process.
The heater didnt work properly either after that.
Air only requires a suprisingly small orifice to bleed thru and a single 3mm hole right at the top of the flange is more than adequate to allow air to
pass by that point without compromising the operation of the thermostat.
The operation of filling/bleeding the system out becomes a little more complicated and time consuming to get right but the results are well worth it
in terms of faster warmup and less variation in water temps whilst running along with a fucking hot heater!!.
Careful attention to the setup of a de-airation/header tank will just about cure any air issues in the system regardless of the positioning of the
radiator.
Ford, for one, solved the drama of a radiator below the top of the water system a long time ago.
L8tr
E
Im not a complete idiot, quite a few parts are missing....
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