| [ Total Views: 1383 | Total Replies: 41 | Thread Id: 62180 ] |
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 pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 02:01 PM |
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To tell or not to tell? that is the question....
In the last month I've had a number of conversations about illegally modding cars. Call it a hobby horse of mine, but I was interested to know. How
many people on here have deliberately avoided getting engineers certificates and the like for their cars after serious mods.
On a similar note, another two people said to me words to the effect that once you have the car regoed with an engineers certificate, it's open
season to do whatever you like afterwards.
I'm a bit worried I have to say. What do the rest of you think?
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 02:08 PM |
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If it's not legal you're an idiot and if you had an accident you could be out of pocket for the rest of your life. It's the people who take the non
legal role that ruin it for everyone else.
[ Edited on 30-4-07 by MickH ]
tssnq.com.au
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squizy
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 02:19 PM |
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Good luck Pete. I like your crusade, but just wonder whether people would openly say that their car is illegal. I've seen posts before that might you
question wht people are doing. Will make it hard for them if they have a problem, and make it even harder for the poor person who buys some of these
things off them in good faith.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 03:30 PM |
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Squizy, no one has to say their car is illegal. The pole makes it anonymous. Not that it seems to worry people anyway. There have been plenty of
people openly post the fact that their cars mods are not certified on this very forum.
Mick, I agree with you.
What really worries me is the prevailing attitude that backyard mechanics and one off workshops know better than proffesional transport engineers. Not
only that, but the "safety as a last resort" approach.
Sadly, I don't think it's gonna change. When one of them (or their mates) gets killed in an unsafe car, they'll swear it won't be the car.
Don't think I'm on a crusade. Going on a crusade assumes you'll achieve something. I'm just a voice crying the in wilderness. :o
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ponybeetle
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 04:27 PM |
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do it right at the start,
your insurance will be void,
fine until you have an accident,
imagine what would happen if some one gets hurt or worse.
be responisible for your actions & don't make it harder for everyone else.:cussing
we have engineered vehciles before (hot rods etc.) and will be going through it all again soon with a ford V8 XM coupe,
it's not that dramatic if you go about it the right way, yes it costs but will cost more if you get sued!!!!!!
if you can afford to modify your car then you can afford the engineers too.....
***WANTED HK HT HG MONARO PARTS***
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BASHOdi
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 04:34 PM |
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Ah- Ha- this ones a minefield if I ever saw one-- so heres a bit more to ponder::
Legal from state to state???????????
A person known to me spent a considerable amount of money and time making his WRX (which already went like a scalded earwig) perform like a bat out of
hell with a red hot poker up its ass, he also spent a considerable amount more haveing it engineered this involved not just more money (considerable)
but time dealing with the duckwits at the RTA who for the vast part are nothing but a pack of taxpayer funded idle dunderheads who have not one whit
of an idea which end is up when it comes to engineering or compliance .
--Anyway with ALL the relevant certificates safley in his glove box he foolishly set of south across the border to the lands of the long long speed
camera--he got as far as Coffs Harbour where he was given enough defect notices to wallpaper the in and out-sides of parliament house--and I note for
the record not one ticket for any trafic offence.
He's fighting them ---still----15 months down the track with no end in sight.
:puke
This brings me to the last Rx7 13bt fc3c import I foolishly bought this was A FRESH IMPORT JUST OF THE BOAT, this vehicle was complianced and
roadworthy'ed on the Gold Coast-- with a leaking ABS--- faulty cat--the list was so considerable it defied belief---go figure--
:puke
And let us not forget the endless list of aftermarket suppliers who sell parts that wouldn't be safe on a Tonka toy, those who flog the unaproved
seats --braided brake lines etc etc that lack of approval aside are rubbish and not forgeting those O so wonderfull made on freekin Mars empi branded
products absolutely gaurenteed (to fail) and further the performance products that carry not one word of caution about legality or suitability and the
people who do who shamelessly flog them to the unsuspecting ,
Shame Shame Shame.
:puke
As to compliance and engineering--why barely anyone in the land knows what is legal from state to state anymore we therefore can only hope that the
person doing the modifying has that rareist of comodities--common sense--at least that might be a starting point.
:beer
Al
[ Edited on 30-4-2007 by BASHOdi ]
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Baja Wes
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 04:53 PM |
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I agree with Mick and Pete.
The rules are generally there to protect idiots from themselves, and the rest of us from those idiots.
Having said that the rules aren't perfect either.
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 barls
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 05:12 PM |
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im a big fan of do it right and do it once
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 05:17 PM |
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Bashodi, every state in Oz has an organization that looks after transport and transport mods. If you ask they will tell you what you need to do. It's
a matter of caring about the law and other people.
Everyone looks at the US cars and say "poor me, I'm not allowed to do that out here!" 
Truth be told, most of what we see on the radical cars is not legal over there either.
In my experience, engineers are only too happy to meet people who are willing to listen to them from the start and do the right thing. It makes their
life easier. Coz most of the time, they are the consultants that the state sends out to clean up the mess after a so called "legally modded car"
causes a fatality.
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mackaymanx
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 05:19 PM |
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Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 05:32 PM |
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yeah its not worth the risk driving around without. having said that though aus really needs to clean up its act law-wise, interstate transfer should
be easier, it should be ILLEGAL to sell car parts that CANNOT BE LEGALLY FITTED TO A CAR, it is just rubbish that this can be done at the moment, and
is done by every auto shop out there and the rego and insurance companies need to have a better understanding of modified cars. Having said all this i
think VWs are extremely lucky around here. the number of bugs dropped illegally low, illegal difference in tyre width front to back, rediculous rear
chamber, no bumpers, modigied indicators/brake lights, yet very few are warned or ticketed, try doing the same mods to a commonbore and see what
happens.
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 07:52 PM |
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you do not need mods to be illegal and void your insurance. if you have an accident/death in the rain and your wiper blades are cracked and old, you
can be charged for driving an unroadworthy vehicle. your more likely to be taken out by a drugged up truckie or drunk/drugged driver than a modified
vw owner. if you can buy it from a shop then you should be able to use it. if you want to be compliant and safe, then hook yourself (wallet)up to the
teet of the car manufacturers and hook up a drip to your insurance company and drift off to an nice quiet unimaganitve drive. The reason we drive
older cars is because we want to be different and mechanically challanged. people who do over the top mods are the ones who have to fork out for the
canarys they get, so they pay the price for there RIDE. which is how it should be. MY2C
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 08:26 PM |
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Dubb61,
In short you are saying "different" means illegal and/or dangerous. That is basis of your argument above.
Now that's fine if you are driving around on roads with no one else. The problem is you are sharing the road with any one of hundreds of thousands of
other drivers at one time or another (including friends and family). They have a legal right to safety. When you infringe that right and hurt them,
they also have the right to take you to court and make you pay. That is why there are laws. Spare a thought for some one else. If you suspect your car
is too dangerous for the one you love most, then it is too dangerous for everyone else on the road and shouldn't be there. Buy a trailer and race it
or show it, but don't drive it on the road.
Besides all that, your argument is floored. "Different" cars need not be illegal. There is a 615cu LC torana in Sydney with over 1000hp at the
wheels. It's FULLY STREET LEGAL and pulls 8s. Reub's VWRX is the wildest custom VW in OZ and it's fully road legal. Bluey Boxall has a 351 V8 in a
beetle and it's fully road legal. Wayne Penroses Turbo Oval is a true 9sec car and is FULLY STREET legal. For goodness sake, Rod Hadfield put an 18L
supercharged plane motor in his 55 chev and it's Road Legal!!! He can't drive it without a co-driver in the car and feathering the throttle sends it
sideways, and it FULLY ROAD LEGAL!!! Narrowed suspension, airbags, 20" inch wheels, turbos, etc etc are all legal....providing you have approval from
your local transit authority.
So there is no excuse really.
There's a difference between being "different" and being irresponsible. Please figure out the difference.
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Notch Nut
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 10:13 PM |
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Legal...Illegal. It all means diddly squat when your dead from it. Laws are created and passed by politicians. Not the brainiest bunch ever to be
handed the keys to the country but there you have it. Safety is the real isssue here. Like Pete said. There is a difference between being different
and irresponsible. The law is an ass and used to raise revenue (IMHO). BTW, my 'hotdog' exhaust is probably illegal but not necessarily a safety
issue (not too much different to my pipes on my bike) but never the less probably illegal. On a personal note,(coming from a motorcyclist) just cos
the law says you are in the right, doesn't mean shit if you are dead because of the actions of an idiot who wasn't in the right. I don't know
where i am going with this but I think you get my drift.....
- Adam
If you can't fix it with a hammer,
you have an electrical problem....
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amazeer
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 10:27 PM |
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I dont own any of my modified cars anymore so I can speak out. I dont know if what I did made them illegal or not. I didnt bother trying to legitimise
my turbo kombi. I dont care that I had 3 to 4 times more horsepower than standard. Even if it had 15 to 20 times more horsepower it would still take
the same amount of braking effort to stop it from 110kmh as every other kombi on the road. It would have taken less effort to stop than all the
standard campers running around. I wasnt prepared to go through the hassle of fitting better brakes... though it would have been handy when belting
around amaroo. Nor did I have my seats engineered. I welded up the brackets that attached them to the floor. They werent going anywhere. I would have
had a shit fight getting that engineered, yet the original kombi passenger seat back is held in by 2 6mm screws
My fastback I got registered with a stock 1600 then pulled it apart, fitted the kombi engine and gearbox, a 4 point harness and ford rear discs as I
wanted to be able to stop at the end of conrod. Sure I was up shit creek if I had of been in an accident. But I was no more likely to get in an
accident with it, I drove very conservatively due to its 'illegalness' and it went/stopped/handled better than any original fastback. It was
illegal, but not unsafe.
With my last 74 kombi which was 100% standard I tempted fate. I put retractable seat belts in it, using the standard retractable brackets that I
pulled out of a rusty 78, fitted brand new belts using all proper hardware and original mounting points. I got knocked back because my compliance
plate never listed retractables. I went back and made new brackets out of 1/4 inch plate, mounted to the original position. That didnt cut it either.
I had to have 1/4 thick plates mounted to both the original position + the cabin divider that had to be reinforced by welding a 4 inch square 2mm
thick plate. In 200 years time after the apocalypse there will be nothing left apart from my brackets, and john farnham singing to some
cockroaches.
I dont condone anything that reduces the safety of any car. Everything I did was safe, not because some cock engineer said so, but because I made it
so. I dont condone the pandering to halfwit public servants who make rules that make no sense. While I drive around and see things like stupidly low
hilux utes and other things struggling to keep between the lines because of bump steer, tossers with seats reclined so their head is in the back seat
with head rests taken off amd 1 arm bent at a stupid angle so they can hug the outside door skin and look cool, shit hanging from mirrors and windows
covered with stickers and wanky spoilers restricting vision, wanky polished stainless mufflers that sound shithouse as well as hang too low and get
snagged on speed humps (OK thats nothing to do with safety, just a pet hate), people who drive their 100% original and legal late model cars in a
matter akin to russian roullette.... + all the other things I could list except this post is already too long.... while all that exists a turbo
fastback is the least of anyones worries.
 
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Notch Nut
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 10:46 PM |
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Amazer -> Turbo fastback = cool + Respect.:thumb
Turbo Volvo = some dumb twat still driving 10k's below the freakin speed limit (as opposed to 20k's if stock standard and on the way back from Lawn
bowls).
Don't even get me started on Rice. Usually it's best cooked by a Subi powered VW! (bonus points isssued if it's a kombi).
Funny thing is that my licence plate gets caught on speed humps (instead of my muffler). That surely aint legal but I've never been hassled by it
and if it ain't there, the Vic Govt is really screwed for cash also.....
If you can't fix it with a hammer,
you have an electrical problem....
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baybuscamperkid
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 10:59 PM |
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nicely put pete, i certainly wouldnt say that the modification laws are well written or even completely sensible in alot of places (for instance, you
need an engineers cert for sports seats, but if you have beriod seats bolted straight to the floor, no engineers required :o )
but you do NOT need to be illegal to be different. my ride is one of only maybe 2000 of its bodyshape made worldwide in its year of production,
probably one of far less then 500 with its mechanical specs, i have had upto 3 different people come up and chat about it whilst sittign in it at 6am
in the morning, and it is for all intents and purposes 100% stock
Reimagined/Recycled/Upcycled Cool
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on April 30th, 2007 at 11:34 PM |
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The law might be an ass, but the law employs people who know what they are talking about.
I've had a number of conversations with 3 or 4 different engineers and have found them to be people who have forgotten more about vehicle physics and
engineering than most of us will know in our life times. People whom Amazeer refered to as "cocks". I personally could care less about their
character. There are plenty of topgun lawyers you use the same word for no doubt. The point is this, these guys know cars better than any of us...and
most of them have been playing with race cars since billy was pup too. They are the ones that say what is safe for state roads, and not anyone else.
Why? Well because their industry and the government know they have the credentials. And if they are wrong? They're the ones that sued instead of you
and me. 
Amazeer, I'm sure your cars were safe...well as safe as a Kombi can be...but your excuse still doesn't wash with me.
But as I said before, no seems to care anyway. :blah
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Notch Nut
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 12:02 AM |
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Unfortunatly, anyone can buy a stock standard car from a dealership. Drive it irresponsibly and kill someone or a family in an instant. People can
modify their cars in ways that are considered illegal yet drive in a responsible way and not killl anyone. I could drive the most engineered, high
performance street legal car under the sun. It don't mean squat if most of my time is spent behind the wheel of my standard 65' notch and I aren't
capable of handling the thing without dire consequenses for any other road user who happens to be in my path. Not unlike similar consequences for
young P plate drivers and turbo charged ricers. (Percepeted skill level not on same par to actual skill level). Jeez. Even I could problaby crash
one of those things as I don't drive modern cars (if ever). I could however run rings around one of these kids in my notch as I have been driving
one since I first held my license and know the handling characteristics backwards. I might "seem" to be a crazy bastard when I drive (which I
don't deny), but as it was my first car when I was a 19y.o. and I am now 30 and never once had a stack in it, it may seem cocky of me to say this but
I know how to handle the car and drive it in ways that are appropriate to the conditions that are prevalient at the time. I've copped plenty of
fines for speeding in my time (lots due to my mph speedo for a couple of k's over the limit too...). I have never killed, injured or maimed anyone
due to my driving style or mods (I did kill a cat once but it had a death wish, it tried to run away but as my car wasn't lowerd then, the fact that
it was on the footpath didn't matter..... ).
It ain't what you got, it's how you use it.........
- Adam
If you can't fix it with a hammer,
you have an electrical problem....
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amazeer
A.k.a.: Surly Duff
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 12:37 AM |
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I dont offer excuses, I offer logical fact. If you can find me a 60 horsepower kombi camper that can outbrake a 250hp window van assuming they both
have the same tyre and brake setup then I'll stand naked on Oxford St. It defies the laws of physics.
With regard to the seat belts... if a collision generates enough force to pull a 19mm headed bolt through 1/4 of steel, I wont be worried about the
damn belts. It would take a few tonnes of force to do that. I only weigh 88kg. Get your engineer to work out the G forces required for my body to
exert that force and ask if it is humanly possible to survive. The same qualified engineer type people that the public servants employ in an attempt
to make fat arsed politicians look good let the kombi pass original ADR certification with a 2mm bracket attached to a single peice of sheet metal.
Which elements of physics changed in the period 1974 to 2003?
These engineers that know best are certifying cars with narrow beams. You're a bit of a racer, you must know that narrowing the front track has to be
at the expense of road handling? If not, do a little experiment. Put 2 axle stands under your front end and give the car a shake. move them closer
together and give the car a shake. gets wobblier huh. Qualified engineers are passing them though.
Perhaps your willingness to follow the spoken word of lawmakers is akin to following the spoken word of religion. I am a fitter by trade and a
computer programmer by occupation. I can only work on logic and proven facts. This is converse to a politician. They work to agendas.
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 12:27 PM |
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nice work Pete putting words in my mouth. please state what dictionary describes "different" as illegal. If you want to be a sheep thats fine, but
do not bag the other animals outside the abbitor pen. i am glad you listed all those modified vehicles as it only proves my point. These are all
highly modified vehicles (incapable of driving from syd to melb)produced by BUSINESS'S (and probably sponsored by joe taxpayer thought advertisng
rebates)and probably have an engineer in there back pocket or on there books. These are not joe public wanting to put a comfy seat in there old car
that is being charged a rediculous amount to do so. So Pete wrap yourself up in your insurance policy and hope you are not taken out by a LEGAL car
travelling down the highway microsleeping after driving 16hrs straight. Please check your wiper blades. Theres a difference between being
"different" and self righteous, please figure it out.
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 12:59 PM |
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dubb61,
what else am I suppose to get from your comments? if being different is your justification for illegal mods then what else am supposed to summize from
it? My examples proved that being different does not mean it's not legally condoned. Anyone can do something illegal and be different, it takes extra
effort to be different the legal way. If you want the benefits of a car business and industry ties then start your own and do the hard yards those
guys have.
I don't care about what you do to your car. I just want to make sure that other people aren't killed or hurt coz you were ill informed in your
decisions when you modded it. Have you ever watched a family lose a child to tragedy? I've seen it 3 times in the last 12 months. I would hate to be
the cause of that, that is why I'm so careful. Cars are dangerous. Even bog standard ones. You said so yourself. So please don't rain poo on me for
asking you to keep yours as safe as possible. By law, you have to.
And if you don't want to be a sheep, give up driving VWs. You're just a part of a slightly different flock to ricers and holden/ford fanatics.
Amazeer,
I know the arguments about narrowed suspension. I agree with most of them. But in the end, as long as the car is engineered by someone who knows what
they are doing, then it will be safe for it's intended purpose.
I don't go to engineers because I care about higher powers. I go to them because they actually know what is safe and how to make sure other people
are not hurt by my modifications. This is not about governments and rules, it's about making sure we look after other people's interests as well as
our own.
BTW, how many fatalities in modified cars do you think it would take for the governments to ban all modified cars? I'm guessing not many. So you can
argue all you like with me, but if all of us don't make a concerted effort to mod our cars legally then our whole hobby will be outlawed and we
don't want that.
Don't think I don't understand your arguments. I used to think the same way, but I now think differently.
Anyway, you're all cranky with me now so I'll stop.
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amazeer
A.k.a.: Surly Duff
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 01:38 PM |
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dude, a narrowed beam is a narrowed beam, engine swap is an engine swap and a brake conversion is a brake conversion. engineers report or not. You
cant drive an unsafe car to an engineer and drive it away as a safe car. What magic wand does he wave to convert unsafe to safe???? Thats just nuts. A
certificate does nothing but stop you from getting defected.
There were 4 fatalities in 3 seperate accidents in wollongong over the weekend. None of them teenagers, none of them P platers and none of them in
modified cars. As tragic as their deaths are to their families, they go almost unnoticed since it wasnt on a long weekend. No laws will be changed or
debated because it doesnt fill an agenda. When the next modified car crashes, law makers wont give a toss if it has a certificate or not.
[ Edited on 1-5-2007 by amazeer ]
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 02:03 PM |
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Doing right means the engineer should be consulted BEFORE the car is modified.
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LUFTMEISTER
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2041
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 02:30 PM |
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Your not an engineer by any chance Pete! Bit s hort of work this month are we? Remember engineers designed the space shuttle and the titanic and
shopping trolleys to make the world a better place!
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 02:47 PM |
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Pete, you're wasting your breath.
The only ones who are going to pay attention are those that already agree.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
Bluey Boxall has a 351 V8 in a beetle and it's fully road legal.
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Actually he has an Austin A40 with a 302 with a Beetle body, registered as an Individually Constructed Vehicle.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
Rod Hadfield put an 18L supercharged plane motor in his 55 chev and it's Road Legal!!! He can't drive it without a co-driver in the car and
feathering the throttle sends it sideways, and it FULLY ROAD LEGAL!!!
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It was (not in Aus anymore) road legal as an implement, not a modified car. Could only be driven on a prior submitted route, between sunrise and
sunset with a host of other conditions.
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pete wood
A.k.a.: figure itout
23 Windows of Awesome
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Mood: upgrades = jackstands
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 03:05 PM |
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yes matt, you're right. I give up. but you can't say I didn't warn them. :o
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amazeer
A.k.a.: Surly Duff
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 03:28 PM |
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fortunately for me I've sold my 2 unroadworthy death traps.
why is an engineer revered more than a mechanic? Everyone laughs at pink slips because they are useless peices of paper. Why not an engineers slip?
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mackaymanx
A.k.a.: Brent
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 04:00 PM |
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I'd comment on that but I might get censored again.
Quote of the week
"Do I wish to send them to you again, nope, no interest can't be bothered really, to much hassle for little or no return."
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Baja Wes
Bishop of Volkswagenism
V6 Baja Pioneer
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| posted on May 1st, 2007 at 05:55 PM |
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Most of the "Approval Engineers" aren't actually engineers.
In QLD, to approve the more extensive modifications you need to be a proper engineer. I won't bother explaining what a professional engineer is or
does.
Tradies and mechanics love to tell stories of dumb engineers they've met. Every profession has good and bad people in each. It's a shame when they
get stereo typed by the actions of the bad examples.
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