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Author: Subject:  Blowing The Bug
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:33 AM
Blowing The Bug


Hey all

well i keep getting flooded with PMs and emails from here, the samba and shoptalk about the blower on my bug
so rather than keep answering the same questions to heaps of ppl over and over again i figured i do a write up with pics.

id thought about supercharging the bug for ages.
Id already tried my hand at turbocharging a while back after a mate gave me the old turbo from his GT starlet when he upgraded.
turbos are great but are alot more work and i found lag was very frustrating and high oil temps were being a problem.
Once u get a taste for forced induction its like VWs themselves, an addiction that just keeps growing
There arent alot of superchargers out there on the market for vws especially in oz.
the old judsons and shorrocks are around but they are made for tiny 1200s and are big $$ not to mention very rare
ive only recently built the engine in my bug , its a 1776 with a 416C tighe cam, stock heads with mild porting, HD valve springs, full flowed, balanced and a lightened flywheel
I built it with mahle P&Cs so it had a CR of 8.8:1, a bit high for force fed but ill deal with that later
currently it ran 40mm webers and had more than ample power and economy but the need for more was there......famous last words

this conversion had been done b4 and i spoke to Steve Rae first as hes done it in a few styles with good sucess.
i really gotta give him a big thanks for all the help he gave me thro out the project and also my good mate Don for the top welding job he did on the blower manifolds

I picked up an SC12 blower from a low KM MR2 that had just been imported from japan and unfortunatley was written off soon after
the SC12 is the smallest of the toyota blowers and comes off the mk1 supercharged MR2s and corollas/levins and sprinters
there is the more common larger capacity SC14 which comes off the bigger 2L toyotas like soarers, chasers and crowns but whilst its almost identical to the sc12s its about 50mm longer and thats just to long to fit a type 1 motor
a pancake type 3 or type 4 cam get away with it tho
these are very popular with the ecotec commodore guys
heres a pic showing the 2 side by side to give an idea on the lenght difference
the SC12 displaces 1200cc and the SC14 is 1440cc

http://www.members.westnet.com.au/adsport/sc14fit/12-14compare2.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:35 AM



I knew to fit it under the decklid of a bug id have to go sidedraft carb
another lucky score for $150 was a freshly rebuilt single 40mm DHLA Dellorto carb.
90% of the time u will only find these sold in pairs of 2 or 3 for upwards of $500
i also picked up a few other parts like an electric fuel pump, greddy style Blow Off Valve, some piping for the manifolds and boost guage

the first logical step seemed to be mount the thing
so out came the Mig and one of the old 1600s from under the house

I made up a bracket that bolted upto the original fuel pump mount and also to the case stud that mounts the original intake manifold
the blower was mounted to this with a length of 10mm booker rod

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_000.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_001.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:37 AM



the blower was gonna have to be tilted slightly to clear things like alternator, dissy and decklid

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_002.jpg

with the bottom secured i thought about how to steady the top
i made up a bracket that fitted the 2 mounting lugs and ran another length of booker rod down to the alternator clamp
it turned out very sturdy

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_003.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:38 AM



next was the drive pulley which brought up alot of issues
the blower pulley sat out a fair way from the vw belt so a big spacer was gonna be needed
also it was gonna have to be bolted on seperate as the bug valance wouldnt allow anything to be on the motor when installing the engine and i also i wanted to keep my degreed pulley for timing purposes
which couldnt be welded

so it was off to the wreckers to find a 5 rib pulley
i knew what size roughly i needed as size detemines boost levels
the standard 1600 toyota runs a 150mm drive pulley which boosts to 10PSI
but that was more than i wanted to run and also the 4AGZE motors rev out to 7500rpm
and my bug motor only revs to 6000rpm.
i figured about a 130mm pulley would give my desired boost level of 6-7Psi
so i came home with the crank pulley off a mazda 626

the spacer was made up the required lenght and was centered in the pulley then brazed toghether
my old boss with a lathe machined me up a shoulder which would locate it in the center of the VW crank pulley

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_004.jpg


also while at the wreckers i grabbed a falcon belt tensioner

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_005.jpg

i kept its original mounting bracket but just cut it down abit and welded in a length of brooker rod to mount it

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_0055.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:39 AM



the pulley worked out perfectly just like id hoped but there was one thing i hadnt counted on
i run a garden variety 4into1 header and thunderbird quietpack which i only got a few months ago when i built the motor
but my suspisions were confirmed when i fitted it up to the dummy engine
the new pulley stuck out to far to clear the #4 runner

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_006.jpg




after trying every header set i had laying around the only one that would fit with a bit of convincing (freindly encounter with a BFH) was a 4 tip monza and there was no way in hell im putting one of those POS on my car
so it became obvious i was gonna have to build a system to suit.
a trip to the zorst shop came home with a 12"mercury torpedo and various bends and splitters.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_007.jpg



I cut up an old header and used the flanges and runners of it and welded it all toghether

TA-DA we have a half assed home made extractor system that will clear the new pulley
i also welded on a 3" stainless angle tip i had lying around from another exhaust and a bung for my o2 sensor.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_008.jpg




quick coat of heat proof paint and could almost pass for a bought one LOL

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_009.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:41 AM



now to the manifolds
the carb to blower one was fairly simple
a plate was cut out to fit the bottom of the carb and another to fit the inlet of the blower
then 2 pipes were cut to the right angles and lengths

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_010.jpg



the blower outlet was a similar deal
just a plate to fit onto the blower outlet and a small box was made with an outlet in the end

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_011.jpg




from there a cross over piece needed to be made
some pipe the same diameter as the original manifold was used to make a T piece that would mate up to the end manifolds

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_012.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:42 AM



my idea was to use a 90degree rubber hose to join the blower to the manifold
digging around under mum and dads place i found a spare bottom radiator hose of mums mazda with the right bend and diameter was perfect for the job ....yoink
radiator hose has a pretty high pressure rating so they dont blow when cars boil and the original manifold boots are only rubber so i figured it could handle the job.
at the same time i also fitted the blow off valve to the manifold as well
this is fitted so that if ever the motor spits back thro the carb it wont blow the shit out of the blower vanes

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_013.jpg



but when i set it all up i wasnt real happy with it
the rubber hose would have done the job ok but i was worried with enough heat it may kink
so luckily from my years as a fridgy i still had a few copper fittings around
an 1 3/8" short radius elbow fit the bill perfectly so it was silver soldered on
and a new shorter straight piece of rubber hose which incidently was the spare top hose for mums mazda too LOL
u can also see the barbed fitting i tapped into the twinport manifold for the boost gauge
i ended up moving it to the the blower manifold above the BOV tho

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_014.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:43 AM



next mod was my 009 dissy
turbo and supercharged motors need alot less advance when on boost
superchargers alot easier cos they have consistant boost
turbos depend on engine load
but u still need normal timing at low revs to keep a good idle and easy starting
if using a stock or 009 dissy the usual method is to limit the centrifigal weights movement or the more crude method is to lock them in place
locking is a bad idea in my books cos trying to start a hot engine with static timing of 24* sucks and a hot engine idling at 24* cant be good.
just limiting the weights is much better cos u can still have stock static timing for easy starting and smooth idle, but u can limit the max advance
the main way ive seen ppl doing this is just bending over the stop tabs which i dont like cos its not easily revesable and if ubend to far its hard to correct
i decided to go with a more elegant and adjustable method of tapping a screw into the tab so it could just be wound in or out to limit the wieghts travel
its a 3.5mm throttle butterfly screw from a holley carb

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_016.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:45 AM



well it was about time to kiss goodbye to my webers
i stood there looking at it thinking what the hell am i doing....

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/Myengine.jpg




it all fitted up well the only slight problem was the carby manifold sat too close to the alternator for the standard plug to fit on
i over came this by just using right angle female spade connectors

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/img_015.jpg




i also had to work out what to do about a throttle cable
luckily one of my other bugs had been fitted with a mazda rotary engine so it had a longer throttle cable fitted.....yoink
but it was just a motorbike throttle cable made to a set length.
i made a clamp on the blower mount and folded up a throttle linkage on the carb
sweet as
i also mounted the electric fuel pump on the shelf beside the engine
and wired the clutch from the blower to the positive terminal on the coil
that way it cuts out as soon as the ignitons turned off.
i had to mount the coil upside down cos it was in the way of the blower outlet
even if it didnt work it did look pretty mean installed :lol:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/blower004.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/blower003.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/blower002.jpg
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:47 AM



well it was time
i decided to crack out the camera phone and record the big moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFC5hJE2dQs 





well it fired straight up
wasnt idleing real brilliant once i turned the cold start off tho
but that was just a jetting thing
DHLA dellortos are the carb of choice for most draw thro turbo owners so there was a fair bit of info out there to help me wiht jetting sizes.

after abit of jet tweaking i took it for a quick blat
all i can say is F**K ME!!!
the accelaration the thing had was absolute bullshit LOL
ive been in some fast cars before and while it wouldnt blow off a twin turbo skyline the poor old bug was having trouble keeping the front wheels on the ground
even with 215 tyres on the back it was chirping changing into 2nd
i took the old man for a squirt down the road
and all he said was i think its got to much power, the only car thats ever thrown me back in the seat like that was my old V8 falcon
max boost i saw on the gauge was 8psi
top end wise it charged hard over 2k but it did have a horrible flat spot just off idle and seemed to bog abit
As i expected cos of the high compression of the motor it was pinging a fair bit under boost
even knocking back the timing to 20* and filling the tank with premium didnt get rid of it so i knew the engine would need decompressing
easy as
copper gaskets can be fitted between the heads and jugs to lower compression
the turbo guys use and recomend these cos they actually seal better than with no gasket
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:49 AM



so not wanting to destroy my new engine, i dropped the 1776 out so i could whip the heads off and put my old stock 1600 back in to keep the car drivable.
just for shits and giggles i decided to try the blower on it too
and got a real shock
its by no means a fresh engine
its actually the first vw motor i ever built way back when i was 16 and after more than a decade still runs sweet.
but with stock compression of 7.5 it handled the blower alot better
power wise it really surprised me, i would say it was exaclty the same as the 1776 was with twin webers

but the torque was unbeleivable
a good example was driving out to work up a really steep hill just leaving bexhill
its a big hill and knocks the wind out of most cars
my 1776 would hold 100 in top gear at half throttle
the lightened flywheel means it looses speed on hilll quicker than normal
but b4 it was built my old 1600 with a weber would drop to 80 in top gear at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle
i could just hold a 100 by dropping back to 3rd and really winding it out.
the 1600 with a blower held 100 in 4th at only 1/4 throttle
i was truly blown away by that

anywayz heres a quick vid
this was the 2nd video recorded
the first one i really wound it out and snapped the throttle return spring which left the carb WOT
the language coming out of me wasnt suitable for publishing LOL
so heres attempt 2 taking it abit easier of what a blown 1600 can do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH3mcgt4ZmE 
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 12:50 AM



so yes performance was impressive but the drivability seemed pretty good to
what surprised me was its very easy to just drive sedately and not even make boost
iim yet to get thro a tank of fuel but so far economy seems no different to when it just had a weber on it
which average was 9L/100kms

once the 1776 is back in ill be taking it to tafe for a dyno run
another guy i know has done the same setup on a stock 1600 in manx
only difference with his is the blower is mounted on its side with a 36/32 downdraft weber progressive
he has it dynoed b4 and after
stock it put out 43 at the wheels and with the blower on it made 82
so thats roughly a 100% power increase not bad for a bit of bolt on gear

So now i really cant wait to get my 1776 back in :yes:

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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 01:05 AM



Hi Joel

Well done,a very interesting read and it looks like a lot of fun. Have you thought about using a dual vacuum dizzy? That will give you retard when on boost.

Steve
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 01:21 AM



Hi Steve
yeah i have but ive had no luck finding one yet
dont see to many on bugs
and i think only some type 4s had them
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 01:27 AM



Hi Joel

71 Supers had them as well as Type 3s. The dealers were removing them, they gave dreadful mileage when combined with the huge jets that they ran in the carb.

Steve
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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 06:40 AM



Awesome build-up!
Thanks for shareing.

Mmmm, Macamadamia nuts......I mean, mmmm, Blowers!




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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 09:27 AM



Give that man a beer!

Well done Joel :tu:




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posted on October 20th, 2007 at 02:51 PM



To double your horsepower for under $500 is awesome :tu::tu:
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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 02:30 AM



http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=504979  is this one ?



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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 04:35 AM



This is the sort of thing I have been dreaming of doing, good to see it done!!

Well Done.

Is it Time for an Intercooler.......... hehe

:yes:
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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 09:01 AM



thanks everyone

lugnuts, yeah thats the animal
find me one them and u'll be my new best mate :dork:

unfortunatley an intercooler isnt an option at the moment cos its a draw thro setup

but all that may change very shortly
as is typical of me never happy letting sleeping dogs lie im already working on the next project.....

gonna expiriemnt with megasquirt

already getting togther a few bits and pieces

plz excuse the dirty socks....

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posted on October 21st, 2007 at 07:14 PM



mate have you thought about using water injection its really easy and will do away with the pinging prob i have used it a lot amnd it cheap to set up and run u2u me and i'll get the diagram 4 u



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posted on October 22nd, 2007 at 04:16 PM



thanks steve
since setting it up on the 1600 i havent had any pinging problems but im still keen on a h2o injection system
ill prob get a hobbs switch so it comes on at around 5psi

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posted on October 23rd, 2007 at 11:05 AM



Nice to see the write up on this!
Lots of stuff we hadn't talked about on msn covered here!
As Joel and i have been talking about it online.. i'm hoping to do a similar setup on the notch.. probably more like the manx setup, but with the blower sitting lower.
Nice work!




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posted on October 25th, 2007 at 02:49 PM



Good writeup Joel, thanks for sharing.

I'll be interesting to see what it puts out on the dyno, should have a nice flat torque curve.

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posted on October 25th, 2007 at 03:59 PM



Madness, I love it.



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posted on October 28th, 2007 at 05:41 PM



Whats with the blow off valve on a draw through supercharged system? Is that protection for the blower in case of a backfire?

If so I think you want to extend that pipe out of the engine bay, or your in danger of starting a fire in the engine bay. Even if the bov leaks a little as they are known to do, it is right next to your distributor = bad.

Cheers,
Ian
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posted on October 28th, 2007 at 06:26 PM



hey Ian
yeah thats the reason i got a plumb back style BOV
i just have got around to extending it out of the engine bay yet

funny thing is the old shorrocks and judsons had the same thing
an open atmo BOV on either manifold end
wonder if any of them had any probs cos yeah thats been a concearn of mine too

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posted on November 18th, 2007 at 07:41 PM



Awesome stuff Joel.... Simply awesome.... I can't wait to see how this thing performs on the strip and the track....



FUCH your early!

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posted on November 18th, 2007 at 09:18 PM



yeah i really wanted to have it up and running for warrick but ah well next year
its just done a 450km round trip up to bris and back this weekend and did it to the tune of 8.7L/100km which im pretty happy with considering i did a fair bit of stirring taking off from traffic lights up there
buzzing along the motorway at 100-110 the boost gauge was sitting on 10psi vaccum most of the time
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[ Queries: 40 ] [ PHP: 8.4% - SQL: 91.6% ]
#Duration:Query:
1.0.00015783SELECT * FROM ubb_settings
2.0.00011492SELECT moderator FROM ubb_forums WHERE moderator != ''
3.0.00011015SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'vw54'
4.0.00008202SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'vanderaj'
5.0.00008178SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'MickH'
6.0.00008202SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Baja Wes'
7.0.00007296SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Dasdubber'
8.0.00010109SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'BUGBOY'
9.0.00008082SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'helbus'
10.0.00007510SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'Cam'
11.0.00007915SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'SuperOwen'
12.0.00007081SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = '65busser'
13.0.00008106SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'barls'
14.0.00008106SELECT DISTINCT uid FROM ubb_members WHERE username = 'MISS VDUB'
15.0.00033593SELECT LENGTH(robot_string) AS strlen, robot_string, robot_fullname FROM ubb_robots ORDER BY strlen DESC
16.0.00010395SELECT f.fid, f.theme FROM ubb_forums f, ubb_threads t WHERE f.fid = t.fid AND t.tid = '65678'
17.0.00013709DELETE FROM ubb_whosonline WHERE ip = '3.235.176.80' && (username = 'xguest123' OR username = 'xrobot123' OR username = 'Anonymous') OR time < '1652998914'
18.0.00007606INSERT INTO ubb_whosonline (username, ip, time, location, invisible, robotname) VALUES ('xguest123', '3.235.176.80', LPAD('1652999514', '15', '0'), '/viewtopic.php?tid=65678&page=1', '0', '')
19.0.00008106DELETE FROM ubb_guestcount WHERE ((ipaddress = '3.235.176.80') OR (onlinetime < '1652913114'))
20.0.00005102DELETE FROM ubb_robotcount WHERE ((ipaddress = '3.235.176.80') OR (onlinetime < '1652913114'))
21.0.00006413INSERT INTO ubb_guestcount (ipaddress, onlinetime) VALUES ('3.235.176.80', '1652999514')
22.0.00010514SELECT * FROM ubb_themes WHERE themeid = '1'
23.0.00005913SELECT * FROM ubb_pluglinks ORDER BY displayorder ASC
24.0.00007391SELECT id FROM ubb_banned WHERE ((ip1 = '3' OR ip1 = '-1') AND (ip2 = '235' OR ip2 = '-1') AND (ip3 = '176' OR ip3 = '-1') AND (ip4 = '80' OR ip4 = '-1')) AND NOT (ip1 = '-1' AND ip2 = '-1' AND ip3 = '-1' AND ip4 = '-1')
25.0.00026202SELECT fid, type, name, fup, status, private, userlist, password FROM ubb_forums WHERE private != '5' AND private != '3' AND private != '2' AND userlist = '' AND password = '' AND status = 'on' ORDER BY displayorder
26.0.00007319SELECT themeid, name FROM ubb_themes
27.0.00055504SELECT name, template FROM ubb_templates WHERE name IN ('functions_bbcode', 'functions_bbcodeinsert', 'functions_smilieinsert_smilie', 'functions_smilieinsert', 'viewtopic_reply', 'viewtopic_quickreply', 'viewtopic', 'viewtopic_invalid', 'viewtopic_modoptions', 'viewtopic_newpoll', 'viewtopic_newtopic', 'viewtopic_poll_options_view', 'viewtopic_poll_options', 'viewtopic_poll_submitbutton', 'viewtopic_poll', 'viewtopic_post', 'viewtopic_post_email', 'viewtopic_post_site', 'viewtopic_post_icq', 'viewtopic_post_aim', 'viewtopic_post_msn', 'viewtopic_post_yahoo', 'viewtopic_post_search', 'viewtopic_post_profile', 'viewtopic_post_pm', 'viewtopic_post_ip', 'viewtopic_post_repquote', 'viewtopic_post_report', 'viewtopic_post_edit', 'viewtopic_post_delete', 'viewtopic_post_attachmentimage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment', 'viewtopic_post_attach_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_attimg_noborder', 'viewtopic_post_sig', 'viewtopic_post_nosig', 'viewtopic_printable', 'viewtopic_printable_row', 'viewtopic_multipage', 'viewtopic_post_attachment_none', 'viewforum_rules', 'viewtopic_post_blog', 'viewtopic_post_rpg', 'viewforum_mpn_info', 'viewtopic_next_prev_links', 'viewtopic_captcha', 'css', 'error', 'footer', 'footer_querynum', 'footer_load', 'footer_phpsql', 'footer_totaltime', 'header', 'message', 'meta_tags', 'shadow', 'shadow2')
28.0.00011992SELECT t.tid, t.fid, t.subject, t.views, t.replies, t.closed, t.topped, l.uid as lp_uid, l.username as lp_user, l.dateline as lp_dateline, l.pid as lp_pid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid WHERE t.tid = '65678'
29.0.00009513SELECT * FROM ubb_forums WHERE fid='13' AND status='on'
30.0.00007510SELECT code, url FROM ubb_smilies WHERE type = 'smiley'
31.0.00003982SELECT find, replace1 FROM ubb_words
32.0.00008011SELECT id, title, posts, stars, allowavatars, avatarrank FROM ubb_ranks
33.0.00008297UPDATE ubb_threads SET views = views+1 WHERE tid = '65678' LIMIT 1
34.0.00037408SELECT COUNT(pid) FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '65678'
35.0.04328203SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 65678 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline < x.dateline AND t.fid = '13' ORDER BY l.dateline DESC LIMIT 1
36.0.03933311SELECT t.tid as t_tid FROM ubb_threads t LEFT JOIN ubb_threads o ON o.tid = 65678 LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts l ON l.tid = t.tid LEFT JOIN ubb_lastposts x ON x.tid = o.tid WHERE l.dateline > x.dateline AND t.fid = '13' ORDER BY l.dateline ASC LIMIT 1
37.0.00011516SELECT vote_id FROM ubb_vote_desc WHERE topic_id = '65678'
38.0.00044012SELECT pid FROM ubb_posts WHERE tid = '65678' ORDER BY pid LIMIT 0, 30
39.0.00024199SELECT * FROM ubb_attachments WHERE pid IN('617375', '617376', '617377', '617378', '617379', '617380', '617381', '617382', '617383', '617384', '617385', '617386', '617387', '617388', '617389', '617397', '617410', '617451', '617521', '617522', '617537', '617593', '617704', '617815', '618119', '618131', '618550', '618557', '621267', '621287')
40.0.00084519SELECT p.*, m.*,w.time FROM ubb_posts p LEFT JOIN ubb_members m ON m.username = p.author LEFT JOIN ubb_whosonline w ON p.author = w.username WHERE p.fid = '13' AND p.tid = '65678' ORDER BY p.pid ASC LIMIT 0, 30