| [ Total Views: 2426 | Total Replies: 36 | Thread Id: 66988 ] |
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 Golde60
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 02:48 AM |
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BIG engine build up
I have already asked a few questions of Dangerous Dave and Ian 2443 (he of the big turbo engines).
Thanks to those guys for the advise already.
I am looking at a long term project engine which I am starting the research process for and hope to build myself.
Will be replacing a 2L t4 in my 60 ragtop.
Goals are:
old school looking engine bay (in particular, na, 48 or possibly 51 idas)
different combo (hoping for around 2.5L)
streetable, but only a weekend warrior with ability to do the odd 2-3hour trip and traffic jams. Plenty of joyrides and drags
hoping to get into the 12s with full weight
gearbox to suit (likely berg 5 or 915 conversion)
So with this in mind, I have decided that I will wait for the TF-1 case to be built.
I like the clearance for bigger than normal strokes, and also like the 0.100 dropped cam.
I want it to work on a t1 based head, have the cb cnc ultra wedge port in my sights at the moment.
I also like CB's JayCee 51mm ida they look like good value.
I need some advise about the combo options that I have.
I had all but decided on a custom 90mm berg crank (custom order), and flywheel to match
However, since reading some comments regarding the available alternatives I have some questions.
What are the benefits/pitfalls of wedgemating vs flanging. I am thinking that wedgemate will be enough.
As such I am looking at cranks such as DMS and DPR rather than Scat.
Also, does anyone use rods larger than 5.7?
I can really only find the carrillos as an option, but with a 90mm stroke I think I will need larger than 5.7.
Also, does anyone know if I have options larger than 94mm cylinders?
Have been looking at nickies, but their best is 94mm.
Please feel free to throw as many ideas and criticism at me as possible, as I said I am starting the research stage and looking for all the help I can
get.
What do you think?
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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 vw54
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 07:18 AM |
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94 mm is about as big as you can go on a stock case set up
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56astro
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 07:53 AM |
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He's not using a stock case Dave.
He's decided on a TF-1 case.
http://www.precisionalloy.com/index.html
VW car, VW engine ...... keepin it "real"
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Golde60
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| posted on January 14th, 2008 at 05:57 PM |
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yeah, thats right steve.
I was thinking some of the 96mm cylinders that Jake and the t4 boys all recommend on the stf
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 06:08 AM |
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Bergs did "practial application development" with their "lab" (black car) about 14 years ago using the 95mm porsche piston and cylinder.
They were very happy with the performance and longevity in that combo, and believed it to be worth while.(except for cost)
Since then, an off the shelf kit is available from LN engineering in the USA
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Brian
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 06:09 AM |
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Even 94's are too big 4 a type 1 , you can't use any bigger and expect it to work , it won't. 96 mm is just OK for a T4 not T1.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 10:05 AM |
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Here we go......
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 11:25 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brian
Even 94's are too big 4 a type 1 , you can't use any bigger and expect it to work , it won't. 96 mm is just OK for a T4 not T1.
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..and where did that you glean that pearl of wisdom?
Pay your debts, CxxT
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nbturbo
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 11:53 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Here we go......
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----There would have to be a Woman out there somewhere that gets that humour-I got a laugh from it.(thats from your tinkering post)
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Golde60
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| posted on January 15th, 2008 at 04:41 PM |
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ha ha
thanks for the LOL dave
I think I have just about been convinced on the 95's
If they run 105.7's on a 3.0 t4 (Jake Raby's) that have a similar wall thickness then I will be ok.
Not in any hurry though, so will wait for him to do some more testing as promised. He will be trying them out on one of his 'test/r&d
engines'
On another note, what about rod ratios?
If I use a 90mm stroke, will 5.7 rods be big enough?
I dont think I m gonna need much help with the torque, but rather the top end, so am thinking that I might need a longer rod
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 16th, 2008 at 09:05 AM |
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Only a MUCH longer rod will have any measurable effect.
I doubt you would even feel it.
With those heads you will not lack anything anywhere.
Your priority will be to make it fit in the engine bay, and for this reason a 5.6 or 5.7 would be my choice.
I have used 5.5 with 90 stroke and the main hassle was the piston clearancing at BDC.
Thus my suggestion of 5.6 or 5.7.
400 chevs used 5.57 with 95.25 stroke and longevity was perfectly adequate
Even the 350 had 5.7 with 89 stroke.
There is a common misconception that rod length controls the power delivery or curve,
when in fact this is more a relationship of engine size, and cylinder head capability.
Camshaft will be a factor.
Rod length when combined with cam shaft can influence these things,
but more along the lines of optimising a particular engine and cylinder head combination.
This also applies to exhaust and intake lengths.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 16th, 2008 at 09:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
Bergs did "practial application development" with their "lab" (black car) about 14 years ago using the 95mm porsche piston and cylinder.
They were very happy with the performance and longevity in that combo, and believed it to be worth while.(except for cost)
Since then, an off the shelf kit is available from LN engineering in the USA
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still using the 95mm to date..........i think Dee's street car is running them nowadays too
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on January 18th, 2008 at 10:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Brian
Even 94's are too big 4 a type 1
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yeah and the Earth is also flat.
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on January 19th, 2008 at 09:29 AM |
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I noticed that nobody talked about flanged cranks vs wedgemated. This was one of my challanges because i am going to need a lot of clutch for my new
engine.
Modern chromoly cranks with 8 dowell and a large chromoly 1 7/8th gland nut will safely hold around 240hp, though i think id still be nervous about
doing this with slicks on the car (especially since ive never driven on slicks). I had easily that power with the 2332 turbo engine.
Wedgemate will hold all the power that an NA engine can throw at it. The advantage is that you still have steel shims to help carry the load of having
the flywheel running hard against the thrust surface on the number 1 bearing. When your foot is on the clutch the force of your pressure plate pushing
back against your foot is also being pressed against the surface of your main bearing. The disadvantage is that wedgemate doesnt last for ever, so if
its a race engine that gets torn down regulary it might need to have the wedgemate freshened up occasionally. Aircooled.net have a great puller tool
that bolts onto the outer clutch bolts and exerts pressure on the back of a loosened gland nut to allow easy removal of the flywheel. You could make
one of these easily enough.
Flange will never break due to traction at the tyre resulting in the flywheel twisting off the engine. The problem with flanged is that the number 1
bearing carries the full load of the pressure plate at full RPM. Where as stock and wedgemate will allow the shims to spin on eachother a little,
reducing the load on the bearings thrust surface. Aparently the problem is the bearing heats up, expands and then locks onto the crankshaft. More end
float helps with this which is why the flanged drag engines run upwards of 0.012" end float. But they are also running stage 3 clutches and 4 pucks.
To reduce that pressure on the thrust the only option I could see was switching to a twin plate and running a lower tension pressure plate. This
reduces load on the bearing. Also thanks to dave's advice i've had all the mains teflon coated, so they will be more slippery, thus reducing
heat.
About rods, i saw 6" rods on a roller crank on the samba for sale once... but finding a set easily with the bolts going downwards to the end caps
instead of from the bottom like chevy's will be a challange. Like Dave said, trying to keep the engine narrow enough to get it in the engine bay will
be the challange. I ran 5.325" rods on the 84mm crank in my last engine and had to clearance the piston skirts. This allowed the engine to be
narrower than most strokers and still fit with just a little clearancing. As that engine ran a fair amount of deck height (6.5mm from memory) it was
still wider than stock.
I've been looking at the 2.1lt T5 engine case again myself... if only I could fine an engine around to trial fit an 88mm crank too. I really think
thats a direction to go in, because 103mm bores just slip on, 10mm head studs no problem, T1 lifter conversion not a problem... and everything else
T1 just bolts on. Also its got to be considerably stronger than the cast alloy cases of today, just becasue VW made it. No porosity from sand
casting.
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Golde60
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 05:25 PM |
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Yeah, still looking at all the options, especially when trying to work out a combo that will be what I want once its finished.
That is my challenge at the moment, cos not many strokes bigger than 84mm out there on street engines.
I have looked at the t5 again, and still thinking about that.
I looking very closely at the t4 again, but a whole new project engine, not an upgrade of the existing one.
I can go bigger a bit easier once i ditch the t1 stud spacing, but the heads are difficult to find/pricey.
Has anyone had any experience with Jake Raby's kits. There is a 2.6L diy setup that I discovered last night......
Das and 66deluxe spring to mind.... any others out there?
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 05:29 PM |
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Unless you have the crank already, a T5 with 103mm barrels will give you some huge displacement if built on a 2.1lt engine case. It will rev better
too due to the smaller stroke. You can buy CB comp eliminators in an un-drilled form, get them machined and drilled for the autocraft spacing. Then
head cooling can be an issue i suppose but water jacketing might be an option for you too.
Raby's stuff is hard core! I like the remelle T4 heads too. The look like comp eliminators but wity WAY more cooling and Type 1 exhaust ports. They
are making 280PS 3lt engines on a T4 case.
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 05:37 PM |
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http://www.remmele-motorsport.com/en/index_aircooled_en.html
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66deluxe
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 06:29 PM |
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Remmele does have some awesome engines and heads but last i heard he is very hard to deal with, people have been waiting over 12 months for parts
ordered and payed for. There is also engine plus in Germany who make an even better type 4 cylinder head. Good luck in your endeavor Golde.
This is my Volkswagen, there are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me my Volkswagen is useless, without my Volkswagen, I am useless.
61 Karmann Ghia 2110cc type1 w Los Panchito's
66 Deluxe Beetle 2270 type 4
10 Subaru WRX Impreza
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mactaylor
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 06:50 PM |
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Engine plus got a web site?
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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Golde60
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| posted on January 22nd, 2008 at 07:27 PM |
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yeah, I got some links at home, will post em up later for those that are interested.
Have looked at all these, and I am starting to like the 2.6L kits for the proven combo and Jake seems to have a good rep.
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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Golde60
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| posted on January 26th, 2008 at 02:41 AM |
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here is a link to some engine pluse pictures on stf
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=68053
also, here is there website
http://www.engineplus.de/pages/en/zylinder_koepfe_bilder.html
gwd have some different heads, more t4 related though
http://www.gwd-weiser.de/index2.htm
here is another website with some cool looking stuff
pretty pricey though, with the Euro being so strong
http://griebel.blogspot.com/search?q=JPM
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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Golde60
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| posted on January 28th, 2008 at 02:58 AM |
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I met a guy from the stf yesterday, Frallan (Fred) who was very helpful and has an awesome vw dragracing and modifying history. Made me look like a
bit of a novice really. Anyway he was most helpful and really talked me into the t4 for a big displacement engine.
So I am leaning towards a Jake Raby kit, they seem like the most honest one out there, and I look forward to talking some with him over the next few
months.
Now just to convince the wife.......
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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johny rotten
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| posted on January 28th, 2008 at 07:12 AM |
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Raby is a very good salesman,
Everything in America is bigger and better!
Even that cooling system he sells , as a BETTER than Dr Porche design !
No independant testing, just his own .
Just my 2 bobs worth
I would prefer a type 1 or as has been suggested a WBX.
The WBX case is far superior to those crappy castings made for type 1 from who knows what material.
Most type 4 casings are well past the use by date
The type 4 heads are crap , even Raby can't deny that , the type 4 has a strong basis for a forced induction set up, but for normal aspiration they
just don,t spin up like a type 1 or WBX and they cost a shitload.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on January 29th, 2008 at 10:50 AM |
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Here is a post on cal-look forum re. larger bores (101.6) in this case in comp eliminators.....just FYI.
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/index.html - bugger, for some
reason I can't post the direct link to the thread - just go to the drag racing board and look for the thread title "101.6mm bore CB Comp
Eliminator!"
As mentioned above Jake Raby is a great salesman but also I do acknowledge the time, effort and money he puts into R&D - until someone else steps
up to the plate to independently critique cooling systems, and other parts, we're limited to what published information there is available (ie. from
RAT). Having spent 6 years study in science and years in research, I know the importance of effectively controlled studies/trials.....here is hoping
someone will follow his lead and do some research of their own rather than just publishing opinions. It is certainly what will help to keep our
'hobby' moving forwards and stamping out some of the crap parts we have endured in recent years.
Good luck Kim - engine plans sound great -I look forward to watching your progress.
Alan
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on January 29th, 2008 at 11:06 AM |
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Out of interest its just under $2000 USD for a fully modified Rocky Jennings engine case delivered to Australia. The case second hand is $250 and the
rest is machining and materials. Thats lifter bore converison, barrel sleaves for 94mm bore, clearancing for large stroker crank, oil system mods,
raceware main studs, water jacket machining, and head stud conversion, plus in my case a full set of custom made bearings to accommodate a Type 1
flanged crank with T4 center mains.
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Golde60
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| posted on January 29th, 2008 at 05:19 PM |
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sounds like that is a change of plans for you ian......
I dont think that will suit me. I have to be more realistic about my circustances over here and think of something that I will actually finish with
limited tools and space.
sounds good tho
...................( O \ l / O ).....................
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2443TT
A.k.a.: Ian
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| posted on January 29th, 2008 at 06:55 PM |
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Yes im now going oxy boxer.
I think that in your case though to make it really worth your while if you were to build one you'd have to do it with autocraft heads as well, so you
can really crank that displacement up there without adding a lot of extra stroke to the engine and allow it to be air cooled as well. That would mean
an easy 6500-7000 USD before you start getting internals. Could be opening a money pit...
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dangerous
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| posted on January 30th, 2008 at 06:51 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
Here is a post on cal-look forum re. larger bores (101.6) in this case in comp eliminators.....just FYI.
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/index.html - bugger, for some
reason I can't post the direct link to the thread - just go to the drag racing board and look for the thread title "101.6mm bore CB Comp
Eliminator!"
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on January 30th, 2008 at 07:21 AM |
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Ahhh.....you're not just good at making muffins and building gearboxes hey Dave!!
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on January 30th, 2008 at 08:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
Ahhh.....you're not just good at making muffins and building gearboxes hey Dave!!
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I am also very good at sex.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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