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 cnfabo
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 posted on April 15th, 2008 at 07:12 PM |
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$6000 enough 2 build 1916 engine
hey tech heads,,, got a few 2 many questions 4 u guys so here they r...
is $6000 enough 2 buy all the parts and get whatever machined and what not 2 build a 1916cc race engine.
ive got a guy i know to build it 4 me 4 cash and beers and he knows what hes doin, but i just want other oppinions.
i would prefer a engine 2 race around a track rather then down a quarter..
and would i get100hp plus??
i want someting that i can drive daily,,and would last a good time..
ive watched ct race and some pobjoy cars race, could i build someting similar???
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BiX
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| posted on April 15th, 2008 at 07:29 PM |
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Yes and no. To get daily drive, reliable, and powerful won't be cheap.
Depends on exacly how race you want to go, and how much power you want. I think you will be looking at 10K+ a 1916 or greater race motor (thats with
all the goos stuff)
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 15th, 2008 at 07:38 PM |
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looking around for bargains, yes would come in around the $6K............depending on your patience and penchant for particular
materials/brands/qualities..............
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on April 15th, 2008 at 08:44 PM |
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if ur building it urself, i'm not experienced, but i been shopping for all kinds of bits on ebay and what not, but purchasing over the internet will
save you HUGE bucketloads of money.
I found this great site that comes with great vw engine rebuilding kits from 69mm to 78.8 mm counterweighted cranks and from 87.7mm to 94mm pistons +
barrels, come with performance cams too. Mainly Scat and BugPack brand too.
http://www2.cip1.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1821
The U.S. Dollar is weak at the moment, so its good timing. Its just the shipping u will have to price, as well as the tax you wil ahve to pay if your
importing something you paid more than a grand for.
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C15-1835 - DS - SCAT -1835CC ECONO ENG KIT 69MM X 92.0MM- CAST CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $769.95
Website Discount Price US $699.95
You Save US $70.00! In Stock!
C15-1915 - DS - SCAT -1915CC ECONO ENG KIT 69MM X 94.0MM- CAST CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $769.95
Website Discount Price US $699.95
You Save US $70.00! In Stock!
C15-2027 - DS - SCAT -2027CC STROKER ENG KIT 78.8MM X 90.5MM- FORGED CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $923.95
Website Discount Price US $839.95
You Save US $84.00! In Stock!
C15-2027-1 - DS - SCAT -2027CC RACE READY ENG KIT 78.8MM X 90.5MM- FORGED CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)0
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $2,799.95
Website Discount Price US $2,699.95
You Save US $100.00! In Stock!
C15-2027-3 - DS - SCAT -2027CC STROKER ENG KIT 78.8MM X 90.5MM- CAST CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $769.95
Website Discount Price US $699.95
You Save US $70.00! In Stock!
C15-2095 - DS - SCAT -2095CC STROKER ENG KIT 78.8MM X 92.0MM- FORGED CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $923.95
Website Discount Price US $839.95
You Save US $84.00! In Stock!
C15-2095-1 - DS - SCAT -2095CC RACE READY ENG KIT 78.8MM X 92.0MM- FORGED CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)0
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $2,799.95
Website Discount Price US $2,699.95
You Save US $100.00! In Stock!
C15-2095-3 - DS - SCAT -2095CC STROKER ENG KIT 78.8MM X 92.0MM- CAST CRANK (SHIPPING CHARGES APPLY)
Phone-in/Mailorder Price US $769.95
Website Discount Price US $699.95
You Save US $70.00! In Stock!
"
Heres a pic of their kits. All you gotta sort out then is the little bits and the case. But its practically a long block. If you chase up shipping
prices and what not, give us a buzz hey.
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(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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vwtyp2
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 08:04 AM |
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talk to Wayne Penrose.
Most people seem normal, till you get to know them.
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colin
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 12:25 PM |
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Gday Chris thats a really tough question because there are so many variables.You can typically go 2 ways,either buy the parts yourself and build or
get somebody else to build your engine or,buy a complete engine of someone like Stan Pobjoy or Rod Penrose
For sure 6k is a good start but there are so many extra things that come up when you start chasing hp.Its very hard to get good hp out of your engine
and still drive to work the next day.CT has managed but his engine is a freak, and he really keeps it in top condition and tuned to perfection.
My personal engine to replace is just to scarey to think about but lets say if i spent 12k i would not have any change
My best advise would be to talk to as many people as you can then form a plan.Cylinder heads are the secret to big hp so get a good set if you can,
and dont rush ,wait and get the best rather than saving a few bucks and getting something that may fail down the track.
Hope this info helps a little
Cheers Col
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fullnoise
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 03:20 PM |
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2 cents rounded down.
Hi Chris,
This is a good useful topic.
My donk has 100 at the treads. Colin's has over 130.
I'd love to have 130 at the treads but that spec may not be as reliable with all the miles my oval clocks up (But it might be).
Here's my 2 cents, I'm no expert. Hopefully you'll only have to spend $6000 once.
Don't get pursuaded by 'bigger is better'. I went wrong with some 44 x 37.5 valve street eliminators. Keep things conservative if you want
reliablity and get good quality parts. My engine has 40 x 35.5 valve mini D-port40 heads and under 0.500 valve lift and 9.6:1 compression.
Get good quality webers like the old ones. If the casting is a bit rough don't touch them. My car pissed fuel all over the engine when I was racing
at Eastern Creek on the cars second ever track day because the spanish webers popped a plug at the bottom of one of the float bowls.
Keep the carbs balanced with a balancing tool. Make sure the linkages are in sync (often). Get used to clearing blocked idle jets with 44 IDF webers.
You'll need to access them though the inner wheel arches. Make sure you've got a good reliable spark with a pertronix (or similar) and an MSD (or
similar). Then the thing will run sweet, sound sweet and be enjoyable.
Use good oil like Motul or Castrol 20/50 Formula "whatever they call it now" and check the valve train religiously. Set the valves by rotating the
engine until you feel the valve start to open then go back half a turn so the lifter is on the heel of the cam. Doing the valves at TDC is unreliable
due to overlap if you have a long duration cam. I set mine to TDC and then Jak showed me his way and it was amazing how the gaps opened up more than
what I'd set them up at. After that the engine sounded less tappety.
Always check unusual noises coming from the engine bay. Like the screams of small children!
I hope that helps.
CYA CT
esratrams
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Sides
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 03:41 PM |
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| Quote: |
Originally posted by fullnoise
Set the valves by rotating the engine until you feel the valve start to open then go back half a turn so the lifter is on the heel of the cam. Doing
the valves at TDC is unreliable due to overlap if you have a long duration cam. I set mine to TDC and then Jak showed me his way and it was amazing
how the gaps opened up more than what I'd set them up at. After that the engine sounded less tappety.
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Wow CT - I've never heard of that way of doing tappets - have to give it a try I reckon !!!
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 04:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Sides
| Quote: |
Originally posted by fullnoise
Set the valves by rotating the engine until you feel the valve start to open then go back half a turn so the lifter is on the heel of the cam. Doing
the valves at TDC is unreliable due to overlap if you have a long duration cam. I set mine to TDC and then Jak showed me his way and it was amazing
how the gaps opened up more than what I'd set them up at. After that the engine sounded less tappety.
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Wow CT - I've never heard of that way of doing tappets - have to give it a try I reckon !!!
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hee he.......or get a good pulley with 360'of markings and check it to be true to the crank position when you build your motor!
YES CT and COLIN.......the reliability and h.p comes from a good combination of parts not necessarily the biggest or baddest.
match your capacity, cam and heads to a goal output, very important
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on April 16th, 2008 at 05:55 PM |
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Hi
Regarding adjusting Valves. When I worked in a VW shop many years ago and we would do many services at once on air cooled cars.
A trick that I was shown was to set the valves without standing up and down to turn the motor over.
We would 1st remove all the plugs and let the handbrake off, put the trans in 4th gear.
If working on hoist I would adjust one rear brake so that it would lock on, its a good time to adjust brakes anyway, then turn the other wheel to get
the correct valves rocking, then release the brake and do the same on the other side.
If working on the floor you can do the same thing, but I was always able to hold the opposing wheel with my foot and turn the other wheel with my
hand.
Steve
PS, off subject but $6000 + for 1916cc with about 100 RWHP makes a Suby conversion look attractive
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westi
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 01:28 AM |
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if you buy every thing straight from the state's yeh it's possible.
your head chioce is one of the most important things that you need to decide.if it don't flow it don't go.cam is next.based on what the heads do.
make sure you do plenty of research,and when you think you have it all sorted,start again
the biggest problem with your budget is how much of it has been alocated for beer and how much will be consumed before the building will be
comenced.
i have seen some mistakes made while building completely smashed on beer,car still ran 10.1 @ 116km/h 1/8 mile in a heavy type three.it did last all
day.but the drive home was hell.the mistakes were minor but the engine is known a the one day screamer.
have fun in what ever you decide.
down sharon.
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 matberry
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 08:44 AM |
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Research everything, then do it again. Damo is on the money, you must match heads, cubes, cam, carbs, comp ratio, combustion chamber design. I've
seen big dollar engines not make hp, and visa versa. Biggest mistake is to always be thinking of the dollar. As they say in 'how to hotrod your vdub
engine', there is no substitute for cubic inches. For a daily, I'd be thinking more displacement, less heads, unless there is bacing rules or
whatever to consider. My 2332 makes great power ( possibly 130+ atrw), very drivable, but although I'd take to the shops anytime, I'd hate to rely
on it for everyday to get to work.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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fullnoise
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 10:52 AM |
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Good trick Steve. I'll give that a shot.
The cost of the subaru donk is attractive in comparison. But the surgery required to your car isn't quite so attractive IMO.
I'd like to try a 2332 engine in my car doing the same stuff and see if it got hot or broke stuff in the engine or gearbox.
Regards CT
esratrams
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Mick058
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 11:43 AM |
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i went the Stan Pobjoy option, looks the goods and you get warranty. Call Stan (but give yourself a spare hour when calling!)
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1303Steve
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 04:18 PM |
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Hi
Stan’s the man, not many high performance engine builders offer a warranty.
Were all driving 30 year plus vehicles, to some any modification to a vintage car is abhorrent. In most cases any modification you do to fit an
alternate motor can be undone. My old 1302 was water-cooled for 16 years, it’s now back on the road, air-cooled.
Steve
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colin
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 05:19 PM |
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I could not agree more with you Matt ,its easier to get 100hp from a 2332cc than a 1916cc but it comes down to your plan.Chris you mentioned racing
,now most clubs run different classes based on modification and engine capacity.As far as hillclimbing is concerned Nathan,Craig,Heath and myself run
in Improved Production 1600cc-2000cc.
Now if you build a 1916cc motor you will run 1600cc-2000cc but if you go a 2332cc for instance you will be in the 2000cc-3000cc class, a big step up.
So as Matt said do your homework and have a plan.
Hows your gearbox? Remember no point having a street stormer if your gearbox explodes every time you drop the clutch.
Cheers Col
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cnfabo
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 06:20 PM |
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1916cc blues ha ha.
ok guys, how bout if i built a hot lil 1640 or 1776, but one that i could build up 2 a screamer 1916 in the future????
and yeah i do have a stock gearbox, but not thinking bout that at the moment.. the guy i bought it off did have a type 4 2.9L
that he said makes bout 190hp, supposably, with the stock gearbox.dunno how much he was dropping the left foot though.
ive been enquiring bout a 2276cc combo thats maybe 4 sale,owners not 100% SURE YET...its in feb april 08 aussy vw mag. what u guys think bout that 1 4
circuit racing and bit of a daily driver as i have enother car??
i know stan from when i lived over there cause i was from coffs as well.used 2 go 2 a few hillclimbes with him, AND YEAH HE DOES LOVE A CHAT,he,he.
his engines is what i have been saving for, but so far im still a few g's off his base 1916cc engine.
should propably keep saving 4 that.
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fullnoise
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 07:00 PM |
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Deja Vu
Hi Chris,
Do I know you?
Did you used to tag along with Stan? Did you go to Mt Cotton and Grafton Hillclimbs when Greg Ward and I were there?
If you're going to get your case bored etc you may as well go for a 1916 instead of a 1776. I think it's the same price. I'm sure somebody will
correct me if I'm wrong.
CYA CT
esratrams
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matberry
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 07:45 PM |
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First stroker I owned in 1987, I said I'd never go stock stroke again. Having said that, I have had success with strong running little motors (1776)
where you can put more money into refining the little things, and overall your little motor can run cooler, but 'big has balls' that you never get
with the little rever.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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colin
Fahrvergnugen
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 08:06 PM |
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So you have another car.Well that puts you in a very good position.I didn,t start to make real gains in hp until i decided to bite the bullet and not
registar my car at all. CT is right you may as well bore for 94,s as 90.5mm barrels and start at 1916cc.
Cheers Col
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cnfabo
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 09:36 PM |
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1916cc
yeah ct you do know me,, you even took me 4 a drive in your oval once.. i like that in car fotage on you tube, it sound farkin nice..
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 17th, 2008 at 11:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
First stroker I owned in 1987, I said I'd never go stock stroke again. Having said that, I have had success with strong running little motors (1776)
where you can put more money into refining the little things, and overall your little motor can run cooler, but 'big has balls' that you never get
with the little rever.
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yeah Matt, i was ten years behind on my OWN first stroker, but racing Luke driving hardings targa car, and Pigmi with his 1776...........both more
refined by an expert company...over my swap meet special 2180
......made me realize how well these little revers could go also!...........amazing how equal they were despite the different style of power delivery.
pigmi and i ran almost identicle et's that weekend but.....
yes there is no torque like that of a stroker tho when you pile a couple of mates in our little cars to show em what you've got. the grunt shows up
when approaching the big speeds with the stroker
make the decision up front tho, as said..........a change in stroke "down the track" should mean different cam, valve size, porting, exhaust and
carburation to make the most benefit from the upgrade.........ie, totally different set up
should we turn this into a confessional as to how much $$$$$ we've spent in our pursuit of reliable power?........ as Colin has so generously
confided
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mactaylor
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 07:23 AM |
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cubic inches = dollars
high revs = more dollars
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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fullnoise
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 07:56 AM |
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Thou shall not confess thy sins, to thy girlfriend, in relation to dollars spent in the pusuit of horsepower.
Chris, I still have a copy of the video you did at Grafton. You were filming Greg Ward on his last run when he spun it coming onto the straight. I
remember your comentary, in a Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure style, you said "..oh... spewin'! He's gonna be pissed". It cracks me up.
CYA CT
esratrams
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matberry
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 08:42 AM |
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Damo what a contest that would have been.
Amazing you got to see a direct comparison with three very diferent engines.
For the un oldies; Pygmy's engine: 1776cc, Engle 120, 40x35.5 MB ported rever,2x 40 IDF
Targa car :1300cc, Engle 120(?), same style heads (probably the set after Pygmy's?)2x40 IDF
Damo :2180cc, ? ,? (feel free to help here Damo)
The Targa car was built for rev's (my combo afterall) and she saw 8000rpm regularly, which I think is very sustainable with the right components. My
old drag engine on the other hand, saw 9000rpm and I feel the need for the Chev valve springs and spring pressures needed to achieve this, make the
streetability unreliable. The 2332 I now have, sees 7000 and so the dual Scat springs are so much easier on the rest of the valve train, it is more
reliable. I am presently building a 2165 with small carbs, and it will be rev limited to probably 5500, as the budget is small, but it will have
'balls down low' (said with a deep voice). With the availability of affordable (remember there has always been cheap) stroker parts, I feel cubes is
the easy answer for street power.
Matt
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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matberry
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 08:48 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by mactaylor
cubic inches = dollars
high revs = more dollars
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This is true, but any streeter will rev to 7000+ with a basic combo. (the low rever in my examples above is due to cam and carb combo).
Best to hide all invoices and especially, dont add them up!
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 09:10 AM |
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2180,all good gear, lightened and balanced, 48's, berg 310 (which was very nice), BUT performance down due to it's heads.... out of the box 041's
yuck!..........
........poor porting, shrouded & silly match of valve sizes for engine capacity and cam needs, also poor combustion chamber design...........low
compression to keep the heat under control............it ran out of puff by 5600rpm
fast in it's own right and i was not dissapointed with it, but other combos (smaller & better match) could provide the same performance
which leads us back to IT'S A COMBINATION of well planned, matching parts that will provide the best results.
there was the articles on Jurgos yello zonker (V.V.D.S) all those years ago to get the most from his small valve heads with great results
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
Scirocco Rare
6 times Australian, 7 times State Hillclimb Class Champion
Posts: 8040
Threads: 347
Registered: January 10th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Sydney
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue ( Default )
Mood: Time to go Salt lake racing, and actually achieve a result.
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 09:10 AM |
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If you want to keep it under 2lt then IMO the best option would be to stay with the 69mm stroke crank and increase the bore size to 94.......the good
old 1916 combo.
If you want a larger than 2lt combo (type 1 motor) then you will have to use a stroker crank.
IMO the under 2lt stroker combinations just don't cut it.
The strokers can't compete with the 1916's in hillclimb, and its been that way for well over a decade.
In hillclimbs you need torque for out of corner "punch" as well as a very wide rev range for less gear changes, so a 1916 is more than capable of
producing both.
As for $6000 as a budget......well I built a great 1916 for the ragtop for less than $4000 using Pobjoy as the builder.
Just buy the parts when others are selling them cheap
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matberry
Super Moderator
Go hard or go home
Posts: 8114
Threads: 134
Registered: March 7th, 2006
Member Is Offline
Location: Cooroy Qld
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 09:15 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
the strokers can't compete with the 1916's in hillclimb, and its been that way for well over a decade.
In hillclimbs you need torque for out of corner "punch" as well as a very wide rev range for less gear changes, so a 1916 is more than capable of
producing both.
As for $6000 as a budget......well I built a great 1916 for the ragtop for less than $4000 using Pobjoy as the builder.
Just buy the parts when others are selling them cheap
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Sorry I cant agree.
All things being equal, more cubes is more low grunt.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hellbugged
A.k.a.: Daimo Pell
23 Windows of Awesome
48's and straight cuts
Posts: 5080
Threads: 116
Registered: April 17th, 2003
Member Is Offline
Location: Nambucca Valley NSW
Theme: UltimaBB Psyche Blue
Mood: Couldn't care less
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| posted on April 18th, 2008 at 09:29 AM |
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never mind Matt, it's just Craig's way of saying his driving skill was untouchable...................fancy passing the credit to his equipment,
always so humble 
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