| [ Total Views: 3014 | Total Replies: 32 | Thread Id: 68624 ] |
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 General_Failure
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| posted on April 19th, 2008 at 09:27 AM |
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Cheapest sensible engine replacement?
Hello all.
I just thought I'd follow up on this line of enquiry. It has been ages since I have looked into a non-VW engine conversion.
I'm essentially looking for a rough guide price on putting some kind of economical and bulletproof motor in my 1800 van.
What sort of motor are people using in that circumstance.
Motors from the really small cars seem to have about the same output as the 1800, but they probably wouldn't survive long lugging a heavy van around,
right?
The thought of putting an EFI Astron in is quite appealing as parts are dirt cheap and the Astron is really quite a nice motor. But the extra power
output might mean other upgrades.
I'm really quite limited in my choices around here... except for the Japanese motor importer outside town, and the wreckers which seem to almost
exclusively have Magnas and Falcons. There is also a late 90s Forester in one of them. Hmm.
A bit more of a departure here, but scarcely 50m away from the wrecked Forester in the nearby secondhand car dealership there is one of the early
turbocharged foresters with the WRX motor. I nearly bought that but I realised that $10k (finance) could be better spent elsewhere, or not at all as
the end result was buying a nice TN Magna Elite for $600.
There is also one other thing that keeps rattling around in my head. At one of the wreckers there is a disembodied, oddly small V6 sitting out there.
I have no idea what it is out of. I have been meaning to ask. I'm going out there some time next week to ask about a price on the rims off one of the
Mercs sitting there.
If anyone missed that my van has a carb'd 1800 in it, it does. Evil motor. I have been fighting with it for three years now to get it running
properly again after a series of mishaps and I am very sick of it.
Now with perfect compression and a large stack of other issues fixed it can barely get to 60km/h. I love aircooleds but the type IV just hasn't won
my heart.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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newoldmanx
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| posted on April 19th, 2008 at 12:02 PM |
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id say a dunny dore v6 might be a good "cheaper" option to look at
very cheap to buy
reliable
heaps of useable pwr
just about any nut can work on them
spares everywhere
btw an 1800 with good compression (leak down tests are much more reliable) will easily do 60kph you might look at buying "how to keep your vw alive"
by j muir if you dont already have it
its just a car for f*%k sake
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pete wood
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| posted on April 19th, 2008 at 06:59 PM |
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Quick answer; Subaru cheaper, holden more expensive but more common and more power.
Details
Seriously consider a subaru liberty/legacy EJ22/EJ20. they will have double your standard power and hook up to a stock 2l box without blowing it up.
You should be able to find a front cut for them. this is a really good conversion and Custom Vee Dub offer a kit for this.
with regard to the V6 commodore motor,
THE BAD; they don't like to rev, so you wont get the best out of it with out an Albins gearset (around $1.5k) and the stock gearbox won't last long
behind this motor. You might be up for around $3.5k total to get you a proper 2l box built up with the gearset. 
THE GOOD; Once this gearbox and the motor is in the Kombi will be transformed. The holden V6 is a big, torquey, lazy motor. You could
expect over 350,000km easily from it with the ability to tow anything and climb literally any hill fully loaded. You'll never want to sell it. You
could also run it on LPgas easily if you wanted. 
p.s. please don't put an astron in it, there's a good reason they stopped making sigmas. I know, I had an astron in a car years back. Nothing
special. 
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Joel
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| posted on April 20th, 2008 at 11:38 AM |
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i agree with the other best bang for buck and all rounder would be an ej22
kombis dont hold the road well enough to chuck to much power in them
but yeah worst mistake u could make is putting an astron motor in
they have got to be one of the worst motors on the road
the refrigeration company i used to work for had a fleet of express vans and tritons and nearly every single one gave problems
the one i had had its first rebuild at 142k then another at 304k
a mate of mine picked up a kombi over town a while back for $50 with a 2.6 in it
what a POS
even in the sigmas they were gutless as letalone a kombi
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newoldmanx
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| posted on April 20th, 2008 at 05:45 PM |
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if you drive your kombi ... like its a kombi then you will not have a problem with either a decent standard 002 (1800cc) box or a 091 (2ltr) box with
a holden v6 however if you want to play wannabe racer then become friendly with your bank manager
the holden alloytec holden v6..produces 255 hp @ 6200 rpm and 252 lb.ft 3100 rpm.
my ej20t in my dual cab..produces 305 hp @ 6500rpm and 253lb.ft @ 4850rpm
and ive been running a stock 002 for aprox 4yrs without drama (just the occasional ricer run but never off the line)
i also run a bombed L20 nissan through a 091 (2ltr box)in my baja kombi that is bulletproof but lacks a bit of torque seeing its running 33's but
runs beautifully on 205/75/15
osp on this forum has done the v6 and runs a standard 2lt ( as far as i know) have a squiz here it shows you exactly whats involved
http://www.geocities.com/gazman_4/kombiv6.html
totally agree with pete on the astron ..... only good for landfill
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its just a car for f*%k sake
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General_Failure
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| posted on April 20th, 2008 at 08:51 PM |
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I sccidentally mashed mouse buttons and lost my nearly complete post.
Anyhow here's the gist.
I didn't realise the holden V6 was a relatively common engine replacement.
I should also mention that my van is running a 1600 box mated to an 1800 motor, automatic version. The van was an auto when I bought it ut reverse
didn't work. It was cheaper to do a manual conversion.
The odd lack that the motor possesses has been driving me up the wall since the second topend rebuild. Bit of a story ehind that but I have posted it
elsewhere in the past and it's irrelevent anyway. I think I made a bit more headway with it today but I still have to drive it to find out. Anyway
the motor has always been really temperamental, way back before it all.
DUB74L, I would never ever touch a carbied Astron. The EFI ones run really well as long as they are never allowed to overheat and are serviced when
they should be. Does your mate still have that Astron thing?
newoldmanx, thanks for all the info and the pics. love them all. The jacked van looks like fun to drive.
The thought of getting another box and getting a new gearset is a little intimidating from a hip pocket point of view. I think it'd be even worse
with a 1600 box. The reason it has that box by the way is the van spent all its time crawling around the mountains, and was set up for pulling
things.
Even in its weakened state it's still hard to start off without spinning the wheels, and still rwvs fine. Just runs out of oomph so to speak. I got
it back to starting easily just today, but the vacuum is still really low. One day I'll find the source of the leak.
Back to the point. The subie motors are also what my pick would be, mostly due to easier mating to a suitable transmission.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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pete wood
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| posted on April 20th, 2008 at 09:00 PM |
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I guess it depends on what tyres you are using, but the most common holden V6 (ecotec) doesn't like to rev. 31" tyres are helping you N.O.M. with a
taller top gear.
BTW, I've just blown up a 'decent' 1800 002 box with a stock 160hp subaru EJ25. I mostly drove it sensibly. Never even did a burnout in the wet.
You might get away with a stock 2l but an 1800 is not likely to last.
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General_Failure
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| posted on April 21st, 2008 at 07:35 AM |
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So a 1600 box would be a definite no-go then? I'll be honest, I've never worked with an 1800 or 2L manual transmission before. I know they are
fairly different to the 1600 boxes though. What is the strength difference? I don't mean in gearing ratios etc, but structural integrity.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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newoldmanx
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| posted on April 21st, 2008 at 11:14 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pete wood
BTW, I've just blown up a 'decent' 1800 002 box with a stock 160hp subaru EJ25. I mostly drove it sensibly. Never even did a burnout in the wet.
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thats why you arent doing as well at the motorkahna's as you should be 
 what is N.O.M
its just a car for f*%k sake
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newoldmanx
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| posted on April 21st, 2008 at 11:32 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
So a 1600 box would be a definite no-go then? I'll be honest, I've never worked with an 1800 or 2L manual transmission before. I know they are
fairly different to the 1600 boxes though. What is the strength difference? I don't mean in gearing ratios etc, but structural integrity.
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as i said b4 its all about how you drive it  i have no doubt i
could go out now and smash my g/box to bits easily within half an hour most likley within 10 min 
ive had a leyland p76 4.4l v8 hooked up to a split kombi 1200 box with reduction hubs (went through a couple of hubs) running 31's that lasted for
years
ive had a corvair flat 6 3.3l big bore behind a 1600 box in another baja bus running 33's
atm i have a pobjoy 2276cc in my grey manx behind a 1600 box with 31'tyres no doubt i could smash that easily too but i drive it so that is much less
likley to happen by no means do i baby it i just dont drive it like i stole it
dont forget your driving a comercial van engineered to carry its own weight plus 1 ton of load yes even your 1600 box
its just a car for f*%k sake
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General_Failure
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| posted on April 22nd, 2008 at 08:54 AM |
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So in essence if a standard tranny is treated with due care it'll last, but if it's flogged it'll become an anchor in no time.
Well, I'm glad to hear there is no major issue with using the 1600 box. I love its gearing. I've never wanted or been able to go too fast in the van
due to where I used to drive it, but the box sure made a difference on the hills!
I also think it's the only way it made it to QLD towing a big trailer, while running on two cylinders, with a full complement of broken rings
(discovered post-mortem after a valve seat drop). IIRC on one cylinder the sparkplug lead was dead and on the other the helicoil which had apparently
been fitted had gone a bit strange and the spark plug was sitting there barely held in at all with all the gasses rushing past it unhindered. Oh yeah,
all the cylinder cooling fins were completely clogged.
So, two topend rebuilds, two heads and five pistons later it is in its current state.
Five pistons? I had an experiment with Porsche pistons in the interim. Went really well while it lasted. I bunt a couple of holes in the head shims
and cracked a head. Hehe. In that time it never started so well either. The starter barely even needed to turn the motor before it'd burst into life,
which is a good thing because it could barely turn the motor with the extra compression.
Sorry, I strayed again. The subie mod is looking the most appealing. Mostly due to the relatively easy alterations required compared to the V6.
Obviously it'd need its own engine support and mounts fabricated, but this leads me to another question.
My memory has a serious case of the oxides on this, but does the transmission need a rear mount? I'm not sure if I'm getting confused with the
beetles. I'm asking because my setup has the mount at the front of the transmission near the gear linkage and the cradle mount for the motor.
I'm just a bit concerned at the extra forces that would be at work on the front transmission mount.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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Joel
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| posted on April 22nd, 2008 at 10:40 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by General_Failure
DUB74L, I would never ever touch a carbied Astron. The EFI ones run really well as long as they are never allowed to overheat and are serviced when
they should be. Does your mate still have that Astron thing?
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yea its just finding one that hasnt been flogged and overheated after 20+ years
he still has it yea
it was only bought for the gearbox and rebuilt front end and steering wheel
i think if u approached any speed over 35km/h the roof would peel off like a tin can the gutters are the rusted out...
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General_Failure
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| posted on April 23rd, 2008 at 03:25 PM |
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I picked up a nice big freebie 2 way fridge last night that I am going to fit to my van when I do the interior refit. I had to move the van over today
so I could get the fridge into the carport. Wouldn't you know the subie fuel pump had a hemorrhage and left a nice big puddle of fuel on the ground.
I'm not using the mech pump because it's outlet pipe came adrift a while back and I don't know what to do about that.
Anyway, that was another nail in the coffin for me. Especially because it didn't want to start again.
I'm getting to my point, albeit obtusely.
There is something I haven't seen mentioned here which I think all you volks should be clued in on. IIRC the most recent Holden models are utilising
a smart variable pressure/flow high pressure fuel pump. Using the pump does away with needing a surge tank and return line.
If I do go the route of dropping an EFI motor in I will pursue getting one of said pumps to make the whole setup a lot simpler.
I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on that.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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newoldmanx
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| posted on April 25th, 2008 at 03:01 PM |
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hey G.F thought this might interest you
http://forums.kombiclub.com/showthread.php?t=12811
its just a car for f*%k sake
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 25th, 2008 at 06:30 PM |
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Interesting, I hade a 2.6lt in my first Pajero in the early 90's..............I travelled over 250,000Km's in it, towed my race car behind it,
travel the topend and central Australia, and everywhere I went I flogged the crap out of it.........................it never missed a beat 
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pete wood
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| posted on April 25th, 2008 at 07:51 PM |
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NOM = abreviation for Newoldmanx
Craig,
If you think an astron is a good motor, it doesn't surprise me that your so stuck on aircooled power. 
But seriously, the issue with an astron is that there are much better engines available now for not a lot more cash. Back in the day, the main rival
of the astron was the Datsun L20b. Again, not bad, but really not very special either unless you spend lots'o'cash on them. People don't bother
with either anymore unless they are purists or are stuck in a racing class that keeps them using that motor (like yourself). If you are going to the
trouble of converting to watercooled, might as well make it worthwhile and use a motor that really performs. I can't see the point of swapping a 35yo
motor out for a 25yo one unless it's fully rebuilt and pretty special.
G.F. (generalfailure); I'll repeat what I said before, you won't get the best out of either subaru or holden V6 with such a low top gear. 33inch
tyres (means bajaing your bus) or a properly built gearbox will fix this issue. I personally think the gearbox is the answer (as does a kombi
specialist friend of mine), to the point where I went an extra tall 4th in my new 2l box (even with 31inch tyres). I don't think I drive mine hard
and I still managed to break it. NOM thinks otherwise re gearboxes. I guess the ball's in your court but in my experience you get what you pay for
and 1600 boxes are cheap.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 25th, 2008 at 08:36 PM |
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Yep Pete...........in my Pajero, and the way I treated it, it was a good if not great motor
I'm not saying that would be my choice for this project, all I'm saying is that I had no problems with the motor for over 250K that i owned it
for........just a fact.
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pete wood
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| posted on April 26th, 2008 at 09:24 AM |
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that's good value.
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seagull
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| posted on April 26th, 2008 at 09:36 PM |
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I have a VG30 DET nissan motor here out of a crash test car as new $1000.00 , has the loom , ecu
Looking for that special lady : PM me for coffee & cake
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General_Failure
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| posted on April 27th, 2008 at 02:16 PM |
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That Holden conversion is amazing value for money. Unfortunately I have absolutely no way of sourcing that kind of capital at the moment.
I'll agree that the Astron didn't really occur to me as a natural conversion candidate. It does however give me an excuse to get a car for stripping
as my SO drives a Magna, is on her L plates and a bit of a hoon. Also the motors are dirt cheap and plentiful.
For $2k I could get my pilots license which I'd rather do to be honest if I had the choice. That's in the short term anyway. Long term parts
collection doesn't bother me at all.
I agree with the sentiment that the gear ratios are less than optimal. Admittedly I barely ever ran the van faster than 80km/h but I know that's not
the point.
Interesting mention of baja conversion. I never mentioned I was considering that, did I? Are the 14" Mercedes rims useless for that. Do I need at
least 15" for decent tires.
As it is my vans ground clearance is roughly up to my knees, but I would like higher. I'm a disaster for undercarriages. Later on I plan on fitting a
skidplate too.
Wow Seagull, that's a nice motor. I had to look it up admittedly. At first I was looking at the wrong unit which was a CA18 DET, which was also a
very nice motor. Then I discovered the power of the scrollbar.
How much work does it take to fit one of them in the engine bay of a bay?
While we're on the subject of fitting motors, I was wondering how easy/hard it is to make the rear bar panel thing removable on a '74 model? I have
vague memories of the earlier ones being relatively easy, but no matter what I'd love to do it to my van. I think it'd be a must with non-VW motors
which are almost always taller. I really don't feel like excavating a hole or constructing monster ramps to do the job.
Thanks for all your help everyone. I have a lot of food for thought here. I love my van but with fuel prices and the waning availability of engine
parts a replacement seems like the only way to go.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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seagull
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| posted on April 30th, 2008 at 02:02 AM |
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Thed VG fitted in the rear of my 68 bug ok  Simon & me jamed it in
there one night for some fun The vg30 makes 300hp in stock form , add a
biger turbo & more boost & they are runing over 600hp
The best motor to date EJ22 then EJ25 simon has a 33 donk for sale with every thing , thats a 3.3 ltr svx N/A
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JVLRacing
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| posted on April 30th, 2008 at 10:42 AM |
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H6 subie motor
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mactaylor
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| posted on April 30th, 2008 at 05:12 PM |
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I agree with JVL h6 all the way
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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seagull
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| posted on May 1st, 2008 at 12:58 AM |
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why , have you driven one ? power comes on over 3400rpm
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JVLRacing
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 08:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by seagull
why , have you driven one ? power comes on over 3400rpm
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and your point is?
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General_Failure
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 09:28 AM |
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So the v6 likes to rev. Hmm. Admittedly I like low down power, but whatever. Beats no power at all.
I took the van for a chug to the cul de sac a house away because I wanted to turn it around in the carport and decided that was a good test, while
still being close enough to push it home if need be. What a mistake. Didn't have the power to move it in 2nd gear. It seems every issue I find and
fix it gets a little worse. I'm starting to think either a very sticky intake valve on #4, or through some magic the valve timing is wrong, although
I don't see how that is possible as I have never touched the bottom end. Hasn't needed it. I mean, when I did the first topend rebuild I noticed
that I could still see the chamfering on the barrels. From what I had been told the motor had been rebuilt not too long before I bought the van.
My point here is that motor is a curse. It always has been. I have never had so much trouble with an aircooled. I'm giving it another chance today,
as I'm giving the basics one last going over before I give up this wave of assault on it.
More on topic, I have considered baja'ing it for quite a long time. Some interesting rims have been coming up on eBay recently but I'm not sure if I
have my priorities straight.
As it was said for something like the V6 the gear ratios are wrong and would only be sort of usable with big wheels. But the thing is I still have to
consider installation of a conversion, an engineers report for the motor and getting a roadworthy.
Should I just aim for slow but registered, and work from there? Ie. Suspension mods, tower strengthening, bigger wheels etc.
I would never lower it because of my habit of destroying the undercarriage on vehicles, and love of offroading.
At least the bullbar is good.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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ian.mezz
Wolfsburg Elder
I never said, I could write or spell
Posts: 3913
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Location: Newcastle
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 01:29 PM |
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you could have a badly worn cam shaft???
because my old bus used to pull up hills no prob with a correctly
reco engine.
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General_Failure
A.k.a.: Tristan
Custom Title Time!
Use your head, don't abuse it!
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Mood: Not too bad. Thanks for asking!
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 06:29 PM |
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The only type of worn the cam it could be is sheared, but everything opens and closes when it should. I handcranked and watched every valve open and
close as it should. Some valve clearances needed tweaking, but nothing major. I haven't tested it since readjusting all the clearances yet as I
discovered it ran out of petrol. I didn't think I had gotten through two or three litres, but apparently I did. Lots of torturing the motor would
have done it. I even went as far as disabling the idle throat, plugging the balance and brake booster tubes, and trying to check the vacuum on each
side. Kind of difficult when the gauge needle is vibrating wildly.
Even when the.1800 was in its infirm state before the dropped valve seat it it had loads more power than it does now. And then it was running on two
cylinders and had bugger all compression in the ones that were.
Ever since I got the van I'd have to take it in to the mechanic every couple of weeks for engine work because everything was constantly drifting out
of adjustment and bits kept failing. I've never seen anything like it. It's also the first motor that has defeated me.
If at first you don't succeed. Build, build again.
Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based LCA pop-top camper. Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002.
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 helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
Super Administrator
Mad fabricator, paint and body
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 07:28 PM |
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Compression, fuel, ignition. 3 things.
Sounds like compression is good, and can be tested.
Ignition - try another coil and distributor!!! Second hand Ebay or wrecker
Fuel - try another carby!!! Second hand
Fuel pressure can be tested to check fuel is getting to the carby.
Power can be tested to see power is getting to coil
Such simple motors. What is your mechanic testing? An hour labour at $70, It can be cheaper to buy a second hand distributor or carby and fit yourself
to see what happens.
Still this is only suggestions to help, you have the choice at the end of the day, and I have to say I went Suby EJ22 so I could go a couple of years
of just turning the key to start with no servicing needed ever.
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Joel
Scirocco Rare
Now containing 100% E-Wang
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| posted on May 2nd, 2008 at 09:37 PM |
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i agree its jusst gotta be something stupid and simple
helbus oil breaks down over time
even if ur no where near milage intervals u should still change ur oil atleast annually ideally twice a year
thats why service intervals say like 10000kms OR 6months whichever occurs first especially city cars that do short trips in stop go traffic
newer engines will handle it better than old vws with no filters hell we drove my exs 93 corrolla for 3 years and 75,000kms with out even changeing
the oil or filter but it does help immensely with the life of the engine to change it regularly
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