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 Stanley
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 01:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hypo-vw
I have had great success with the mahle 87mm forged pistons....in my opinion you should go this way and stay with the 1640....
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Are they forged based on a seller sayng there are no forged 87mm Mahle pistons and if they are (not doubting you by the way Wayne) where can I get
some?
cheers
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 matberry
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 02:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
So why would it be hard to believe a 1640 producing 101hp, when clearly there are other combo's on this forum producing a lot more HP/cc ?
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There are combo's in the Mouse Motor thread making 130hp/liter, and backed up by time slips.  Now that is definately something to aim for.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 02:06 PM |
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yep, agree
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fish26
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 02:34 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by humpty
Turbo's are not cheating.... Making do with an inefficient engine is just plan stupid!.... NA or otherwise.... Do what you must to make the power and
enjoy the ride.... Naysayers can go jump.
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LOL too true, having fun is not cheating, show me one guy that doesn't like a bigger suck, bang, blow 
bitten by the bug..........several times
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matberry
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 03:42 PM |
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Speaking of bigger suck bang blow
Check out this, 1915 making 248 @ 9700
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o4Yt6ew1M&feature=player_embedded
Suck on that !!! Has to be Nitro for sure  .
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 05:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Stanley
Almost makes me think i'm cheating with the turbo....
Cheers
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Yep, going by the Lounge Mouse Motor thread, you are cheating Stanley.
I'm liking what I see here, I've got a few engine bits around that may soon be enough to challenge Waynes 100rwhp.......Shame I never dynoed the
custom 1300 85.5 x 56 twinport race engine I built for the '98 Targa, not in the running I admit as it was very mild cr but certainly in the
comp....
ps don't worry about Johnny Nice Fella....he doesn't like stuff that others do.
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Wow I remember helping to lift the body onto that car and later hearing it wind up through the backstreets of windsor on tuning runs- was a sweet
motor that! 
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pete wood
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 08:26 PM |
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just watched it. MENTAL
I guess it's all down to more revs = more power... if you can keep it together... 
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johny rotten
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 08:36 PM |
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if its doing 9700 rpm then it might make 248 hp (American)
it sounded sweet but I wonder for how long 
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matberry
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 08:56 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
if its doing 9700 rpm then it might make 248 hp (American)
it sounded sweet but I wonder for how long
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Why would it be American HP Johnny? Engine is in Sweden, Europe not USA.
It's the Japs that seem to have the tiny pony measurement IMO.
You should read the whole thread, it makes for a very interesting and informative read.
I would expect quite a reasonable longevety if treated right too.
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fish26
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| posted on October 15th, 2010 at 10:09 PM |
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no nitro on that beast, just clever engineering, light parts and great heads, Johannes sure knows how to build engines.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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SuperOwen
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| posted on October 16th, 2010 at 07:56 AM |
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There's a lot of money tied up just in pistons in some of those motors. Clever engineering, but for the time, effort and cost involved definatly not
sensible for the average enthusiast.
On a slightly different note why is it that the bigger the motor the wilder the camshaft people seem to think you can use? If everything is sized
proportionally to the displacement (valves, ports etc) wouldnt the powerband characteristics of say an fk87 be the same on a 1600 as a 2332? rocker
ratio may have to come down to reduce lift on the smaller valve I suppose and a 1600 off cam would be soggy compared to a 2.3 off cam. Any other
thoughts?
Maybe stanley needs to try an fk87, proven performer on the old pro turbo cars!
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matberry
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| posted on October 16th, 2010 at 09:15 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by fish26
no nitro on that beast, just clever engineering, light parts and great heads, Johannes sure knows how to build engines.
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Fish, the Nitro comment is from here.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
those numbers are a bit hard to believe 
101bhp@the wheels @7800 ?????? from a 1640
what fuel were u running Nitro ?
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In the thread there is stacks of info on the builds of JPM's engines, Johannes Persson is certainly a mistro when it comes to high HP AC VW's.
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fish26
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| posted on October 16th, 2010 at 10:18 AM |
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sorry mate, my head's so into my own engine build I missed the sarcasm.............sure it must be nitro with a bit of magic.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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hypo-vw
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 posted on October 16th, 2010 at 02:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
What I find hard to believe would be how you can get CR 12.8:1 with a 1640............how did you achieve that Wayne ? Dome top pistons ?
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Craig, I have engine building specs for nearly every engine I have assembled in the past 15 years . I have dug through my specs sheets and found the
one for my speedway engine ....
My 1640cc engine had 1mm deckheight , 27cc chambers and 1.75cc piston notches . I have rechecked my calculations and this combo gave me a cr of 12.82
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I have in the past experimented with comp ratios and set an 1835 engine at 17:1 on avgas with a 20cc chamber , but it ran like a diesel . Heaps of
torque , very harsh and pinged .....
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pete wood
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| posted on October 18th, 2010 at 02:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
There's a lot of money tied up just in pistons in some of those motors. Clever engineering, but for the time, effort and cost involved definatly not
sensible for the average enthusiast.
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The price of parts generally all comes down to demand. If more 'average' enthusiasts started you use his pistons, he could order bigger batches and
the price would come down markedly. That's why the US stuff is so much cheaper, coz they make it huge batches. Same as iphones and TVs. People
probably had the same attitude to forged stroker cranks in the 70s, "like who such serious engineering", but now they are made in enormous batches
and are reasonably affordable to everyone in the scene.
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fish26
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| posted on October 18th, 2010 at 02:45 PM |
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most of JPM engines use custom pistons and barrels as they are per engine basis hence their expense.............a group buy from JE would be cool
though and we'd all have similar base engines, apples with apples.
bitten by the bug..........several times
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SuperOwen
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| posted on October 18th, 2010 at 05:35 PM |
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Thats what I meant fish, its all custom which makes it expensive. Most if not all of the piston brands will take a custom order, but can you imagine
trying to get everyone to agree on what specs they want for a group buy? At the end of the day you've still got a 1600 that cost twice as much to
build as the 2276 with off the shelf parts and still spanked you!!
I like stanleys combo because it doesn't use anything exotic, making the most of commonly available stuff.
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BeetleBug
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| posted on October 18th, 2010 at 05:58 PM |
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It is Shell V-Power pump gas. 99 octane. Easily available in Europe.
He changed the header design this weekend and managed 252hp at 9000 rpm and with a wopping 8hp increase at 7000 rpms. These are incredible
improvements when you are at this level. He is also going to bump the compression a little and according to his calculations the finished engine will
produce a healthy 265hp / 138.4 hp/lit.
Mahles 87`s are not forged and have never been forged either. Still, if they can handle 2.6-2.8 bar of boost I would not worry about their quality.
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matberry
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| posted on October 18th, 2010 at 09:55 PM |
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Hi BB
So Mahles 87's can handle upto 40 psi boost......wow, can't be too bad.
Johannes is being silly...138.4 hp/liter......congrats...he da man...
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Stanley
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| posted on October 19th, 2010 at 09:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by BeetleBug
Mahles 87`s are not forged and have never been forged either. Still, if they can handle 2.6-2.8 bar of boost I would not worry about their quality.
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Confirms my suspicions so I guess it comes down to the tune up with me. Still considering Nissan pistons though. I think they would be more forgiving.
Just need to get a hold of one to check it out.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on October 19th, 2010 at 10:45 AM |
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http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5174
Are these the pistons you have currently?
or these ones...
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D198%2D087%2DBB
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Stanley
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| posted on October 19th, 2010 at 11:13 AM |
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The first ones are definately Mahle and the second ones are the AA pistons. Which I have also used in 85.5 with the turbo and actually my notch is
currently fitted with a set of AA 87mm pistons with no problems that i'm aware of.
I have used Mahle pistons but don't know about the graphite coating.
If you go by a price comparison you can tell there not forged. A complete set of 87mm B&P for $300 compared to 87mm forged ACL SR20 pistons (no
barrels for obvious reasons) $660. The forging process warrants a higher price.
I can also remember that cast pistons have a strengthening band built into the inside of them which you can see on some pistons.
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BeetleBug
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| posted on October 19th, 2010 at 11:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Hi BB
So Mahles 87's can handle upto 40 psi boost......wow, can't be too bad.
Johannes is being silly...138.4 hp/liter......congrats...he da man...
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The Mahles do handle those amounts of boost in the 1641/354hp turbo engine I mentioned earlier in this thread;
- Original crank, not counterweighted
- CB h rods 5,5"
- Mahle 87mm pistons and cylinders
- Single relief engine case
- Fk-89 camshaft
- lube a lobe lifters
- cromolly pushrods
- scat 1,4:1 rockers
- Orginal heads with orginal valves 35/32,5mm. Ported intakes and exhaust.
But if you mess up your tuning they will crack, but so would Autocrafts, JayCee`s, Pauter etc etc. The same engine dyno`d 394hp at the JPM dyno day.
It is not a JPM built engine.
Keep us updated with your project. It is always interesting to read about small, capable engines. Buy yourself a good ECU, add a bigger turbo and go
racing!
Best rgs
BB
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Stanley
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| posted on January 2nd, 2011 at 09:05 PM |
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Just a quick update for those interested.
I've just fittted new spring plate bushes and lowered the rear end a tad but more importantly I've Just purchased some 87mm Mahle SR20 forged Nissan
pistons.
Should have them next week. Then it's off to DB's to shorten the barrels, pushrods and other bits to make them fit.
Let the games begin
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humpty
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| posted on January 3rd, 2011 at 12:59 AM |
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 3rd, 2011 at 08:54 AM |
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Are the nissan pistons just a plain flat top?
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dangerous
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| posted on January 3rd, 2011 at 09:57 AM |
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I think they are slightly dished, so we will flycut the head too, to restore the comprerssion.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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Sides
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| posted on January 3rd, 2011 at 10:16 AM |
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Amazing the symmetry of things sometimes... the Nissan dudes I know through racing say that running VW pistons in an SR20 is a pretty common trick...
apparently they're a bit lighter and also slightly increases the compression !!!
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Stanley
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| posted on January 3rd, 2011 at 07:19 PM |
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the nissan pistons have the same gudgeon size as a volksy but they are 7mm shorter.
this means everything will be shortened 7mm. Barrels. intake, exhaust mods, pushrods and tinware.
and yes they are much lighter and are also coated with anti friction compound.
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SuperOwen
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| posted on January 5th, 2011 at 08:02 AM |
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Sounds perfect for a stout little motrr, any other changes while your at it? same cam etc?
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