| [ Total Views: 2394 | Total Replies: 33 | Thread Id: 69984 ] |
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 vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on June 23rd, 2008 at 02:34 PM |
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Budget to go racing
Hi all,
I am wanting to hear from those who have developed their beetles for hillclimb and lap sprint work. I know everyone runs at a different level but I am
trying to get a feel for what the budget will be. I am keeping it air cooled powered and would like it to be of a very good standard.
At this point I am looking at improved production 3J. The historic Na class interests me (after speaking with Brisdubba) but I am not sure I will get
the speed kick that I need. I have a 54 oval to go on to a BJ IRS pan.
Main budget items I would like to hear responses on are:
Suspension (also who is using BJ/IRS?)
Roll-cage, traction bar
Seat, harness, suit, helmet (other safety gear?)
Wheels, tyres
Gearbox, diff
Motor I am not too concerned about though am happy to hear. (I have rough ideas on costs for this and given the sheer number of combinations it would
be difficult to gain a usable figure from this)
If I have missed out some obvious things above I would like to know.
While I know that budgets will vary I would rather learn from others experiences and go in with my eyes open. I am 40yrs of age and am now officially
an old fart that is now in a position to pursue some of his childhood dreams. (It is the one thing I noticed at Speed on Tweed is that there are not
too many young guys behind the drivers seat)
cheers
Marcus
And a big thankyou to Craig Torrens, Ben Durie and co from around '95-'97 for switching me onto hillclimbs when I was living in Bathurst for a few
years. Not that any of you would know me from then but it was the first time I had seen a little beetle fly 
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on June 23rd, 2008 at 03:40 PM |
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OK, rule #1 I was told with race-cars was "NEVER add-up how much they cost to build/run/repair".
That said I have a 70 BJ/IRS bug that I hillclimb, admittedly not all that competitive compared to the likes of Craig, Ben, Nathan, Heath etc, but I
think that's more me than the car at this stage. I'm in 53's at Mt Cotton... the car is probably good for 51's with someone who knows how to
drive.
Suspension - standard stuff in new or good condition is OK, but you'll likely want T3 or heavier bars. Depending on condition figure
$500-$1000 for new shocks and bushes. If you go for race-type sway bars they're about $200-$250 each end
Roll-cage & Traction bar - I have a Kafer Cup setup similar to what Craig is now selling (his look awesome btw). Roll cage I went
a bit overboard, but figure anywhere from $1500 up depending
Seats & harness - figure $500 per for new fiberglass seats, standard seat belts are acceptable or 4 point harness figure
$100-$200 per, suit is optional (but figure $250 and up) and similar for helmet. Other safety gear you'll need is a fire extinguisher ($50 or so),
tow points front and rear ($0-$20 each), bonnet tie downs ($20'ish) and a battery triangle ($3). Circuit racing you need a laminated windscreen, but
not for hillclimb.
Wheels & tyres - standard road tyres will work, but semi-slicks are better. Go with 15" rims and 50 profile since they're legal
for IP now. Semi's are $1000 a set and upwards.
Gearbox & diff - I've used a standard SSP L-bug box with open diff for most of my events so far, although I have a new box with
different rations and a Quaife LSD going in. For a new box there's $$$$ to be spent - I'll let you know how "well spent" the money is in 2 weeks
time !!! 
Engine - uhh yeah - the sky is pretty much the limit there. In NSW 1916 with twin IDF/IDA's seems to be the norm, or EFI if you
really want to go wild. Stay under 2 liter if you can.
Once you have the car, there's the running costs.... $150'ish for license and club membership each year, $70 or so entry fee each event, $10-$15 of
fuel for the car plus more for the tow vehicle, tyres probably a new set each 12-18 months, you get the idea.
Breakages and stuff... well - depends on how careful/lucky you are.
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ang3lsholocaust
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| posted on June 23rd, 2008 at 03:56 PM |
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Thats a g run down Sides.
A mate of mine has just started racing with the local newcastle guys, Ben, grant, heath, Christine, John and nathan.
Has got me keen to build up a car and start now.
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on June 23rd, 2008 at 08:16 PM |
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Oh and like I've said before, be warned hillclimbing is definitely addictive !!!
In all seriousness though, you don't need anything too special to get started - just reliable and roadworthy really is enough to have some fun with.
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01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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colin
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| posted on June 23rd, 2008 at 09:33 PM |
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Thats a scary run down Sides. Have we really spent that much? anyways it,s well worth it.
Also have a talk in person to a few of the guys there all good guys and would be happy to give you some tips.
Are you going to Warwick Drags? i will be there and i think Sides as well.Come and say hello love to chat
Cheers Col
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bat69
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 12:16 PM |
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There is no real cheap way to go motor racing. Although you can race on a budget. My old man always told me the only way to make a small fortune in
motor sport is to start with a large one. I guess thats why most of the blokes you see go racing are all old farts cause. The're the only ones who
have the money to do it...ha.ha. The young blokes have the stupidy but dont have the money or gear to match so I guess it evens out.
If you really want to get competitive in a beetle, then I think a figure around $20 000 would be a converative figure to build a beetle. This includes
engine, box, brakes, cage, seats, parts etc etc. Some people spend way more some people spend less. It all depends on what you like to do your self
and what you want to pay others to do for you and how fast or competitive you want to be. If you are happy to run around and have fun then you spend
less if you want to be at the front then you spend more. I like to do most things myself (with the help of a few friends) including building
suspension, set, tuning, brakes, fuel tanks, body work etc. I personally would spend the $$$ on an excellent engine and good gear box combo because
that is where your performace is. There is no hard and fast answer as to 'How Much does it cost'. as there as many factors. If you are happy to just
go out there and drive as fast as you can and have some fun with out getting a pill from your local hwp pigs. Use a stocker and not spend the coin.
White Knuckle Racing Team
"Drive it like dirt"
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VWCOOL
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 12:28 PM |
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I am building a 'budget' racer from a $300 BJ/IRS shell. I already own the engine but with lots of Ebay and swapping etc of second-hand parts
(seats, standard IRS box, whiteline swaybars etc) and doing it all myself I have managed to get it ALMOST track ready for around $4K not including
cage that is yet to be installed. Or so I think... Sides's list looks very accurate - maybe more accurate than my shoebox full of receipts!
The only actual 'new' parts are big brakes and pads, two gauges, an extinguisher and some battery wiring. I even managed to buy a brand new, in-date
second-hand harness from a mate of a mate
The engine is a basic Kadron-carb 1916cc and will 'do the job' for a year or two while I get used to everything
I will provide a proper $ total when I am complete. Soon!
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 03:36 PM |
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Yeah, Col - we really have spent that much - and probably then some...
bat69 I think is spot-on about the engine and trans being where your times (or lack of) really come from... at least I hope he is, since I'm
expecting big things from my new trans with the Quaife in it !!!
Gotta be said it's all definitely worth the $$$ though. I don't smoke, I don't drink (much) and don't have any other real vices... and since I
don't have another half to answer to, well working on and driving the race-car can just be "my thing".
btw - next event at Mt Cotton is Sunday 6th July... so if you're unsure of how much fun hillclimbing is, you can can check out the big dopey grin I
get after a good run !!!
Oh and VWCOOL - don't EVER add it up to a proper total !!!
;-)
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Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 04:04 PM |
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Thanks.
These are the kind of figures I was expecting. I just wanted to hear it from the horses mouth.
I won't turn up until I am driving something that I can be proud of and be at least in the middle of the field.
Some of the budget is already spent (parts hoarding for a couple of years) so I wanted real figures so that I can plan my run to the finish. As I get
into the project shortly I will post some photos.
Part of the delay has been in completing the shed so that it is a good workshop area. See photo below of partially finished interior linings. Shelving
to come plus workbench.
Still happy to hear input from others. (Never knock back knowledgable advice)
Cheers
Marcus
PS. I'll try to get out and see you run at Mt Cotton, Sides. I caught you there last time at the Australian titles. I reckon in a year I will hit the
track.
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on June 24th, 2008 at 04:17 PM |
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another photo
Ceiling linings and insulation will happen the weekend after next
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on June 25th, 2008 at 12:48 PM |
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Nice - looks like a decent size shed there Marcus !!!
I like the idea of ceilings and insulation - was down in my garage workin on Jezebel this morning, and it's just a little bit chilly now....
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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rallydave
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| posted on June 25th, 2008 at 05:49 PM |
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For those that are interested.... I built my P2 1400-1600cc PRC rally car from a pan replacement up(similar to the pics) into a vehicle able to run
150km plus at 130kph at a time....under $9000.This included All cage work,saftey gear,12 rally tyres and 3 years of development in rallys,motorkanas
and kahanacross!! It IS possible to enjoy air cooled fun, but you have to be observant,intellegent(DON'T believe everythig you see and read....it
mostly is drag stuff)and be willing to rebuild to develop.The size of the shed dosen't determine the ability of the preparer.
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BrisDubba
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| posted on June 25th, 2008 at 09:05 PM |
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Budget racer
Marcus,
Herbie would be flat out owing me $6000 which includes everything, motor, bodywork, the cage, flash pan with bj front and sway bars etc, new race
tyres etc etc. It will all come down to what you are prepared to do yourself. I havent had to outsource anything so that is why the costs are so low
and whilst it had no where near the performance of a pobjoy powered beetle, I also have no where near the expenses.
There are plenty of people out there who have been dissappointed with big name shops with big prices. So be wary of that- you're a smart bloke, do a
little research and build it yourself, you will have a better appreciation.
But you are off to a good start with the question.
As for safety items that will be dicated by what sort of events you are going to do as each has a different standard.
Cheers
Peter
VW Toys
64 Beetle - club car - Herbie
RSK 718 Porsche Spyder
76 Southern Cross Offroad racing buggy. "Manx Buggies"
77 Cobra Offroad racing buggy "RipOff"
68 Country Buggy KO200
64 Manx swb
70 Dual Cab kombi
74 Dual Cab kombi
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on June 25th, 2008 at 11:00 PM |
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just buy what you need, when you need it !
my car cost bugger all ..... only the engine and gearbox cost $$ !
done right the car shouldn't cost much to run/maintain..........some oil changes and new tyres every couple of years
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pete wood
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| posted on June 26th, 2008 at 11:12 AM |
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there is a cheaper way to go racing. it's called MOTORKHANA. No mods necessary. No helmet or anything. Just turn up with a safe car (not regoed even)
and race. $50 for a licence, $50 for club fees, $45 per event.
BTW, I agree with craig. Start in the stock class and work your way up on the cheap. A stock 1600 can go quite quick with the right chassis. Get the
chassis and suspension right first (the cheap part) then build a hotter motor later. Besides all that, a stock motor will be less likely to grenade
itself or the gearbox which will save you money.
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on June 26th, 2008 at 05:34 PM |
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Thanks for all your feedback...
I will probably go run a few motorkhanas as I tune the suspension for some reasonable handling.
I have been preparing for this project for a few years. I will start by completing everything I want to on the pan including rollcage, suspension,
sway bars, kafer bar, camber adjustment etc. so that I don't have to remove the body again too soon. (Not my fav thing to do)
I am starting out with the 1640cc (mild) that is already in the beetle. It is in good nick and I will run it with either twin or single Dellorto DRLA
setup, depending on what works best. (I have everything for twins so if it performs resonably I will leave it that way.) The gearbox in it is also
recently overhauled (not by me but previous owner ... so who knows).
After a time I plan to turbo the beetle by blow through on the dellortos (yes I know efi works better but I am happy to work through the issues myself
of the turbo blow through carb setup: I have a bro in law and friends who have some practical experience in the engineering of turbos [one worked inMike Vine for a season]) though where that places me in classes for racing is a bit stupid. The 1.7 multiplier means I can't even run a 1776cc
without being pushed into the 3000-4000cc class. I don't think that will stop me particularly as I am really wanting to maximize the fun factor and
to me that will be fun!
We will see.
Fun times ahead and look forward to keeping in contact with you all and learning from each others experiences.
P.S. I assume the reference to the size of sheds and quality of preparation is unrelated to my shed?? 
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on June 26th, 2008 at 06:23 PM |
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You can ring me anytime
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on July 7th, 2008 at 07:10 AM |
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Well, unfortunately I hurt the budget a bit this weekend - broke traction in the wet on the left just after crossing the finishing line and ended up
crashing into the rock wall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50fz2apYOyI
Damage appears to just be body work - the bumpers front and rear took most of the impact, but the nose forward of the fuel tank has been dragged
across about 2 inches from where the brackets attach.
Suspension and steering untouched - made another two (rather slow) runs afterwards no probs.
All up the budget's not been hurt too badly - new parts will be a front spoiler (trashed from climbing the wall) plus an exhaust system (busted from
backing into the wall)... and methinks I'll just do the panel beating myself.
Oh well - 3 weeks till Valla should be enough to get her straight again !!!
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on July 7th, 2008 at 07:56 AM |
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Hard luck Dave.
The track bit a few people yesterday in the on and off conditions.
The car looked like it was flowing quite nicely apart from the abovementioned.
My bro-in-law who is working with me on mine was very excited to get into it after watshing the racing.
In a month the shed will be complete inside and I can begin work on the beetle. 
Marcus
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hellbugged
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| posted on July 7th, 2008 at 08:30 AM |
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 not good Dave...............hope it's not too bad, there is always gaffa
tape
now back to the shed please!
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BiX
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| posted on July 7th, 2008 at 08:36 AM |
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Dave, hard luck mate.
I did the excatly the same thing at that corner. back then it was fisish line on corner, 10m and 2 strips of concrete.
The front of mine was out by about 2 inchs two
I have no sympathy for my car, only the wallet that pays for it!
Go hard or go home!!!!
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colin
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| posted on July 7th, 2008 at 05:22 PM |
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Sorry to see your off Dave,hope the beam and steering is okay.
On a positive note, how did the new quaife perform?.
Cheers Col
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Sides
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 06:57 AM |
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Yeah - thanks for comments guys. Had a more thorough look over the car last nite, and am still pretty certain it's just panel damage.... at least as
certain as I can be without checking everything on a wheel align. It all felt fine too when I did another two runs afterwards, so I've been pretty
lucky I think.
The new gearbox and Quaife I'm really happy with - the ratios suit Mt Cotton really well, and now I have only the very slightest amount of spin on
the power down out of the hairpin (before it felt like I sat there for ages). There's a fair bit of relearning for me to do - I'm used to driving
round by the sound of the engine, so with the shorter gearing find I'm braking WAY before I need to. Even with braking too early my times are on-par
with what I was doing before, so there's seconds to be gained next time out I reckon.
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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VWCOOL
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 10:25 AM |
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It'll polish out...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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Mick058
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 10:48 AM |
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Hey Sides, is it possible to roll your car collecting the front edge like that, or are the speeds not fast enough to force the car to roll?
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vassy66T1
A.k.a.: Marcus Vass
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 01:31 PM |
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Depends how far up the bank the front goes.
A 70's escort rolled on Sunday the corner before this when he understeered into the bank.
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Sides
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 02:00 PM |
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Yeah - it's definitely possible - there was the Escort as Marcus mentioned, plus I've seen others roll over exactly where I had my brush with the
wall.
Speeds aren't massive at that point - I was mid way through the revs in third gear, so somewhere 60-70kph I reckon (my max at Mt Cotton is just on
the 100 mark as I start braking into the hairpin).
From the scrapes on the wall my front bumper got about 2 feet up the wall, but luckily nothing "dug in" and I just kinda bounced around. Having a
fairly stiff setup probably helped a bit there, but who knows - I'll take the luck anyway I can get it.
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Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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Mick058
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 02:41 PM |
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Cheers for the reply, will need to check it out one day.
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bat69
Insano Dub Head
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 02:55 PM |
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You can roll your car at any speed. I have rolled my rally cars on many occasions (worst luck) with some being at high speed and others at very slow
speed. One of my roll overs was on a very tight hair pin no faster then walking pace. Just got the old datto at the right angle to go up and over..
A bit of a pi$$er dave about the prang. It didnt look that bad of a hit on the vid so I hope for you there is not to much damage. Just get a wheel
alighment anyway. I found out the hard way after my old man peg the gutter at king edward park. Handled all right afterwards but when we got some
speed on at bathurst it was like driving a car bent in half. IT was awful. I recon my ute handled better then the beetle. Result was a very badly bent
beam.
BTW the car looked pretty quick and your lines looked neat and smooth. You will have that thing on the pace pretty soon.
White Knuckle Racing Team
"Drive it like dirt"
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mactaylor
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| posted on July 8th, 2008 at 05:32 PM |
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hey sides what suspention setup have you got?
EVERLAST CONCRETE TANKS
1800 552 123
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