| [ Total Views: 3053 | Total Replies: 114 | Thread Id: 7168 ] |
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 vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
a suffusion of yellow
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| posted on June 4th, 2003 at 10:49 PM |
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New forum rules - discussion
[url=http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=7167]These are the new forum rules
[/url]
All new users will have to agree to these conditions.
For existing users, I am giving you notice that if you continue to use the forum after 30th of June, 2003, you are agreeing
to these terms and conditions. There will be a new "Accept" button to click after this date
You have until midnight on June 30 to get me to change any of them. These rules are in response to recent legal wrangling,
so consider some of these things absolutely 100% not negotiable, but if you have valid points, bring 'em up. 
Please discuss.
Andrew
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by vanderaj]
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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| posted on June 4th, 2003 at 11:21 PM |
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Also, please note that all pages now have a very important disclaimer down the bottom.
Andrew
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 Spook
Custom Title Time!
Driving the 64 wheeler
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 04:05 AM |
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Aside from the lack of time offered to comment, & the overwhelming urge to ask who died & left you in charge.
2nd paragraph; Define "objectionable".
For arguements sake, what I say to Birchall, will be taken the way it's meant but someone else may find it offensive.
Does a comment need to be aimed particular party for that party to have grounds of complaint??
4th paragraph; "the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."
You best explain that one to me in full detail.
That's just outright dictatorship.
Lastly, the 3rd paragraph.
With the exception of threatening & vulgar, every other term is open to interpretation.
Are you aware that NOT talking to someone is harrassment?
I sh!t you not.
In light of the current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.
[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Spook]
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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Stanley
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
I guess the reward is in the doing of it
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 07:24 AM |
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I don't have a problem with the new rules however spook in his own way did raise a good point in his last statement I think a lot of this is a
"knee jerk Reaction" but will abide by them in order to keep this forum alive.
However I hope common sense prevails before giving out any info or personal details on forum members to anybody.
At the end of the day don't post nudity,don't bag anybody either personally or professionally.
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bugboymatt
A.k.a.: Matt
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 07:56 AM |
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We at AussieVeedubbers also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal
action arising from any message posted by you.
Thats gonna wanna make people fill in there personnal details isn't it !!!
What about public privacy statments act are you allowed to willy nilly give out personal contact information of users !!! With out consent !!!
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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bugboymatt
A.k.a.: Matt
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 07:59 AM |
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You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory,
inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise
violative of any law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum.
Better be careful of the use of the word vw / volkswagen beetle and anything else i not own copyright too then ay !!!
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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bugboymatt
A.k.a.: Matt
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:00 AM |
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i think spook was right with this one or all gets too silly !!!!
In light of the current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:34 AM |
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”These are the new forum rules - all new users will have to agree to this. For existing users, I am giving you notice that if you continue to use
the forum after 6th of June, 2003, you are agreeing to these terms and conditions.”
Any way of making it compulsory for already registered users to view this? Easy for newbies, but I suspect not so for already registered?
”Considering the real-time nature of this forum, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please
remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for, or
warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the
views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this forum or any entity associated with this forum.“
The waiver is good but not binding. It is the same as a roller skating rink saying you ride at your own risk – they are still liable for injuries
sustained, even by people breaking the rules. Unfortunately the publishers of a forum are in part liable in a “but for” scenario. “But for”
the avenue of publishing libel the publishers bear some responsibility. However, actions like these being taken now by the “perceived” publishers
do carry significant weight in that they are showing they are taking the responsibility seriously and are making endeavours to quickly remove posts
that may be libellous.
”You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory,
inaccurate”
Posters should be aware that in some circumstances material could be defamatory (libellous) even if true or even if a party is not named but can be
reasonably deducted from information given.
”Although this forum does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this
forum reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you
agree to indemnify and hold harmless this forum, Aventure Media, Inc. (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to
any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).”
Very fair for the users and especially fair for the administrators. However, as noted above this does not fully protect the publishers of libellous
posts. The users of the forum should really have the respect for the forum and the administrators (who do a job that is largely thankless) to not post
messages which may breech the conditions of the forum.
”We at AussieVeedubbers also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or
legal action arising from any message posted by you.”
Not only a right the forum can be compelled under certain circumstances to provide all “reasonably” known information.
Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this forum.
“Some clarification may be needed as to what constitutes an advertisement.”
From Spook “Aside from the lack of time offered to comment, & the overwhelming urge to ask who died & left you in charge.”
I will take Andrew’s side here. I have been a publisher and know full well the risks taken when material that is allegedly defamatory and/or illegal
for other reasons is published. The internet is not immune. In fact it’s worse because material can be said to be published wherever it can be read.
Bad news if people choose to proceed with actions in a country other than its origin.
My best friend is a barrister and I’d be happy to approach her for plain English guidelines for the administrators, which could act as a checklist
to make their decisions much easier when/if the need arrises to delete a post. Some ligitimate and "certified" legal advice would be good.
I'm sure I could wrangle it for the Forum for free for this purpose.
Sadly, libel has a big effect on businesses and individuals. However, more often than not an apology or retraction is usually more than enough for
most people to withdraw.
A very simple way of avoiding libel charges (a practice I follow when writing articles or letters to newspapers) is to send the planned piece to the
person/s involved giving them the opportunity to comment or request you not proceed. If they say nothing within a reasonable time you may well find
you are then protected. Complaints are always best put the party involved, as you cannot defame them when writing directly to them.
In all it is a shame that we must resort to having these sorts of guidelines. But if this is needed to ensure that the Forum continues then my support
is given.
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Grey 57
A.k.a.: Dean
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Old Grey Cruiser
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:51 AM |
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I have no issue with most of it.
Paragraph 5 - Identities as long as the information is kept in line with the new privacy laws. OK
Agree with Hot Rod Matt that we need to get a legal eagle (or 2) to cast an eye over it. Keeping plain english is important.
The first sentence in the last paragraph - not really sure what this means.
The final set of terms should be emailed to all current users to ensure that they have seen it.
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:16 AM |
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Spook, through the wonderful aegis that is legal action, I think you'll notice we're down one person in charge ... so far. Jim's still
around, so your worst nightmare hasn't come to fruition yet.
I will consider the other points, particularly getting existing people to click their acceptance to the new terms, once we've had them checked.
I like Matt's idea to get them vetted. Rules that cannot be enforced, or worse still, provide no protection are worse than not having any. But
the days of not having any rules are over. We are in the position we are today because we didn't have the ability to disclaim liability prior to
bad things happening, not once but several times.
The last paragraph is basically stating that if you threaten to sue us and thus ruin the forum for everyone, you are not welcome here any more as you
are not part of the community and don't uphold our core values. I don't want to stop people who have a real grievance, and we will continue
to help those who need it, but those who threaten legal action to get "their" way will suffer the ultimate penalty - permanent
ex-communication from this forum.
Some activities, such as stalking, etc are already illegal, and thus as we nearly all live under Australian law (or similar common law equivalents),
we shouldn't have to list the crimes you might be able to commit here seperately. However, I do want to have a list of things we might call
"a statement of values" - those topics/activities that might get your post summarily deleted and potentially your user banned.
Andrew
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Grey 57
A.k.a.: Dean
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Old Grey Cruiser
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:23 AM |
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Thought of something else. (Instead of working) I have seen some really pointed posts on the Samba site re work performed rip offs ect.
In probably the most letigious nation in the world, how do this and other forums in the states get on.
Is it worth contacting a couple of these forums and ask how they handle this and terms/discalimers in place?
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 10:02 AM |
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Glen,
They don't have our rooted defamation laws. They also have the first amendment.
And plus their lawyers are usually conversant on what will and wont get it up in court.
Andrew
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vw54
Super Administrator
Always Waiting 4 Friday
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 10:06 AM |
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Andrew
Can you add ONE more rule to the list please
Please enjoy the forum... and try to have some fun and add a bit of humor.
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Grey 57
A.k.a.: Dean
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
Old Grey Cruiser
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Location: Phillip Island
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Mood: (OoVoO) (OVO).
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 10:56 AM |
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Dave, that should be our "First Amendment"
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pyr0
Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber
flame-on
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 11:39 AM |
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they're all good i can agree with them considering i think i already obide by them already. |
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 02:10 PM |
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I will ask my barrister friend after the long weekend to give us something as certified legal advice.
Maybe a checklist for admins and guidelines for participants.
Matt.
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PostModern
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
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Location: Illawarra NSW
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 02:49 PM |
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I just want to jump on the "look out who you give personal details to" bandwagon. If one member has a dispute with another, you should not
just automatically give the one's information to the other without a court order. That protects your bum too.
I belong to another board with an active trading forum and it is a rule there that the site's owners have nothing to do with transactions but in
the event of one going sour, will give all information to Police or a lawyer with a court order. That information may be your Email address, the IP
address from which a post was posted, etc. I'm sure vBulletin records all of that info and with the co-operation of ISP's absolute identity
of the poster can be established.
Oh, they also require a "real" email address, rather than a free one, like hotmail, yahoo etc. That seems reasonable enough to me!
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 03:46 PM |
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Postmodern,
The phrase is from the US, where they have no privacy laws, so it needs to be ditched / re-written.
The Cwth Privacy Act prevails, regardless of what we do, which is essentially that we do not disclose info without your consent if we haven't
gathered that info for other purposes and you have agreed to that third use.
Luckily, what the forum (and us as admins) knows about you is in the profile area, which is visible to all regardless. So we can't disclose
anything more than you put in there. And the only thing that must be in there is a username and an e-mail address for the registration process.
Also, we don't have a privacy statement. I'll fix that.
Hotrodmatt, I am not about to refuse an offer of help, but isn't that barrister friend also advising someone here on another matter? I don't
want to cause a conflict of interest.
Andrew
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
a suffusion of yellow
Posts: 3123
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Location: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
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Mood: In the family again
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 03:49 PM |
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Policy revision. I've revised the implementation date and the policy. Changes are in red.
If I'm keeping us open to open-ended legal attack for another month, I ask you all * pretty please * to be nice until it's in place.
Keep the suggestions coming!
Andrew
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by vanderaj]
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vanderaj
A.k.a.: Andrew van der Stock
Super Administrator
a suffusion of yellow
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Mood: In the family again
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 04:22 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Spook
2nd paragraph; Define "objectionable".
For arguements sake, what I say to Birchall, will be taken the way it's meant but someone else may find it offensive.
Does a comment need to be aimed particular party for that party to have grounds of complaint??
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Legally, "objectionable" is in the eye of the "reasonable person". You, I, Dave, and nearly everyone here are poor examples, but
the law doesn't take this into account. Luckily, since most of us don't mind playful banter, there's not lawsuits flying around on each
and every thread. It's only when the shit hits the fan...
I think the current standard of "reasonable person" is someone who likes watching A Current Affair and thinks it is a fair and balanced
journalistic bastion of integrity.
| Quote: |
4th paragraph; "the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."
You best explain that one to me in full detail.
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It's an "out". It means we can delete ANY post for no reason. What will happen in reality is that dodgy posts move to the suspended
threads forum for further review and if they really are dodgy they are deleted. But sometimes, it's just safer legally to say "Too bad,
it's gone".
As we get close to our disk space limits, this will actually happen en masse - old threads not read in over 12 months will be pruned from the board
automatically. There's no malice in it, it's just normal administrivia. But this baby gives us the right to do so.
Try convincing me that we should codify this another way - I'll listen.
| Quote: | Lastly, the 3rd
paragraph.
With the exception of threatening & vulgar, every other term is open to interpretation.
Are you aware that NOT talking to someone is harrassment?
I sh!t you not.
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We don't run censorship here, you can say "shit" and so on. Some of those terms are actually legally defined. Their definition only
comes into play once they've hit the court. What I'm trying to do is encourage people to post nice happy VW thoughts, rather than posts of
the other variety. We end up closing 1916 threads on a regular basis cos of this.
| Quote: | In light of the
current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.
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No, we need more rules than that. We already have one codified rule - no nudity and we are now simply going to delete any post that talks negatively
about any business, regardless of the truth. Every few months, someone flames someone and we get threatened with a lawsuit.
That HAS to stop, or aussieveedubbers stops. Hopefully, by giving you folks a chance to significantly input into the rules that we can all agree on,
it will stop.
Spook, you had good suggestions. Keep 'em up.
Andrew
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bugboymatt
A.k.a.: Matt
Custom Title Time!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 05:35 PM |
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Just had a look at the second draft.
No probs where's the click to accept buttom !!!
Congrats Andrew.
Should keep all happy.
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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Spook
Custom Title Time!
Driving the 64 wheeler
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 06:58 PM |
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I'll get this off my chest first.
"WE" had nothing to do with the no nudity rule.
That was YOU! Don't ever forget that.
Now, you haven't really answered the question.....Objectionable.
Any reasonable person?
That's awfully open.
Exactly which member (aside from me) IS NOT a reasonable person??
So anyone can have a post removed at their whim.
Deleting of the "old" posts has always been on.
But that aint what's written here.
Who decides what is dodgy??
When I typed shit this morning, it read pooo. that's why I edited it. Tell me again about censorship.
Lastly, & I think importantly, if I, or any other existing member refuse to accept your rules, what course of action will be taken?
Because, Andrew, if the answer is exclusion, you will find yourself in court.
As no law can be made retrospective, neither can any rule.
When I signed on there were no rules.
While I accept that you can do this to newbies as a condition of entry. I'm already in.
So expulsion would have to fall under much the same catagory as the unfair dismissal laws.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by Spook]
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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HotRodMatt
Wolfsburg Elder
If it's old or rare - cut it!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 07:46 PM |
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"Hotrodmatt, I am not about to refuse an offer of help, but isn't that barrister friend also advising someone here on another matter? I
don't want to cause a conflict of interest."
Andrew, no she's not advising anyone on anything related to anything here. Barristers only deal with things when they get to court. Solicitors
would be providing advice prior to proceedings. Solicitors are usually retained by businesses asa matter of course - not only when the
"need" arrises.
So in short, no conflict.
Matt.
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fatboy
Wolfsburg Wizard
Disciple of Kol
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Mood: Hungry!
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:16 PM |
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""WE" had nothing to do with the no nudity rule.
That was YOU! Don't ever forget that."
Actually no.
I was and am ONE of the ppl who object to nudity here I have and will continue to click the report button if ppl post nudity here. I know others who
also object to this but will leave it to them to name themselves if they wish.
"Now, you haven't really answered the question.....Objectionable."
Wrong - its a legal term - if you dont like start a campaign and change the law.
"When I typed SHIT this morning it read poo that's why I edited it. Tell me again about censorship."
Speak to your ISP when I type SHIT it reads **Censored Censored** (to me I dont know if ne1 else can still see it) because my ISP filters for content
it doesn't always pick it up and sometimes you can fool it but 70%ish of the time it filters it out.
It does this on all websites.
"if I, or any other existing member refuse to accept your rules, what course of action will be taken?"
By using continuing to use the forum you accept - tuff
"While I accept that you can do this to newbies as a condition of entry. I'm already in.
So expulsion would have to fall under much the same catagory as the unfair dismissal laws."
No and NO ( In that order )
My comments may seem rude and harse to some ppl here but when this discussion happened about 6 months ago I suggested guidline that would have kept us
out of trouble and without fear losing the forum.
I am also tired of Spook using every opportunity to attack Andrew.
Get over it mate.
What it comes down to is that you have to accept the guidlines or risk losing the forum Andrew and Jim are being more than reasonable by putting it up
for sensible discussion, but sensible discussion does come in the form of personal attack.
If you dont like the new rules as they are defined by the members and administrators then dont let the Virtual Door hit you on the Virtual ass on the
way out.
A seperate post for a more serious suggestion.
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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Herbie
Insano Dub Head
53 Bugs are not nearly enough
Posts: 764
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Mood: Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.Utinam logica falsa tuam philos
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:17 PM |
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"all in all it seems to show
You dont know what you've got till its gone."
Lets think of it this way,
Were roundabouts invented when you got your licence? Regardless, you still have to take responsibility for your driving and follow the rules
pertaining to round abouts, and if you dont know the rules then you are failing to maintain your knowledge, and cops will fine you for that too on top
of the fine for the original offence, and if you continue to disregard the rules the the cops will take away your driving priveledges.
I think its like a life boat, It doesnt matter how many people have a claim to a seat for whatever reason, the fact remains that if everyone piles in
without thinking about the consequences, then the boat will sink and NOBODY gets to enjoy any of the benefits.
So I think its a good Idea ensure the boat doesn't sink, no matter what.
This is a coment for all, and not directed at any one person, based on the feeling I get from reading these posts
Cheers Tony
62 Ragtop Herbie with a little extra oomph.
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fatboy
Wolfsburg Wizard
Disciple of Kol
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Location: Belgrave Victoria
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 posted on June 5th, 2003 at 08:21 PM |
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A Suggestion
Now with apologise (sp?) to our members here who are under the legal age (And I have no idea what that is in this country)
but you will need to say that ppl under the age of x must get parental consent.
I am truly sorry to bring this up as I have chatted to some of the younger members here and found them to be more mature and responsible than many of
the ppl I have dealing with in everyday life.
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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BenettonVW
Super Administrator
AVD Forum Founder
Posts: 3125
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:14 PM |
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Okay, well censorship has always been an issue, but at the same time, common sense must provail and after all this is a forum, where many different
members have many different opinions, so moderators must have an open mind about that very issue. For example, the nudity thing, half members
don't mind it at all, including women at the time, but half of the people didn't like it, so it was dropped.
This new set of rules is basically to protect people. People like the mods, the admin, the Forum. You, the members, must be accountable for what you
say, just like you are in real life, and thats the idea of this, because until now, it has been us, the admin/ mods/ forum that has done it for you,
but we can no longer, and won't any longer, wear the flack from it. No longer.
For the more senior members, such as Spook, Birchall and so on, they are grown men that know what they can and can't say, and generally have been
here at the forum for just as long as me, and a lot longer than most, so lets not only cut these people a bit of slack, but show them some respect and
respect their opinions if they have the balls to speak it.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by BenettonVW] |
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PostModern
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Posts: 89
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vanderaj
Luckily, what the forum (and us as admins) knows about you is in the profile area, which is visible to all regardless. So we can't disclose
anything more than you put in there. And the only thing that must be in there is a username and an e-mail address for the registration process.
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Surely each post has an IP address as well? If not, you might consider updating vBulletin.
I can probably give you the contact details of the forum owner I was talking about if you're interested in the "whys". He had to shut
down for some months while he went thru a few legal battles. I believe he spent literally tens of thousands in legal fees defending himself as he was
sued for the words of a forum member. They now have a strict "no vendor verdicts" policy. I want to see aussieveedubbers have a long and
useful life. It would be good to learn from others' bad experiences rather than your own.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]
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fatboy
Wolfsburg Wizard
Disciple of Kol
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:47 PM |
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Trouble is that a lot ppl still use dial up and a few on adsl / cable will still get assigned different IP addresses so you could only say for certain
which isp made the post.
The simple fact here is that in reality the changes won't make a bit of difference to 99% of the ppl here.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by fatboy]
" Captain Picard, why are there no Indians on the Enterprise ? Don't you need IT Support ? "
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PostModern
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Posts: 89
Threads: 8
Registered: January 31st, 2003
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Location: Illawarra NSW
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| posted on June 5th, 2003 at 09:53 PM |
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The court would go to the ISP and ask for the DHCP logs to be checked and find out whose account and (according to the mail I just got from Optus)
which phone number used that IP at the time of the post - even if you switch off caller ID.
It can be, and is, done.
EDIT: Yes, but it's the 1% that cause all the pooo.
[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]
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