| [ Total Views: 2539 | Total Replies: 35 | Thread Id: 73618 ] |
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 modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 23rd, 2008 at 09:54 PM |
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AVD EFI collaborative project
I am hugely impressed by the ambitious development projects being undertaken by some AVD members; a quick troll through the "Tech Talk" section will
show some terrific work on everything
from water-jacketed heads to big brakes and Kafer-cup bars. At the same time, as a software developer, I have also seen the success of open source
software developpment projects where
teams of developers, co-ordinated by the wonders of the Internet, develop projects which match or better those of conventionally-organised software
developers.
I believe that there is an opportunity for AVD to develop a reasonably-priced, high-performance EFI system for Type 1 motors as a joint, communal
project. The result would be a fully-specified
implementation package for converting a Type 1 motor to EFI for street use. The rest of this document is intended as a discussion paper for such a
project.
SCOPE: ELECTRONIC FUEL INJECTION FOR VW A/C TYPE I MOTORS
==================================================
The scope needs to be both broad enough to capture the interest of a large base of VW enthusiasts, yet simultaneously narrow enough to deliver an
implementable product in a reasonable
time-frame. For these reasons I suggest that it should be:
- electronic FI to accomodate high-performance variants and to achieve better daily-driver drivability
- limited to Type I motors to get the largest interest base
- designed for street use i.e. high-performance means excellent driveability
- reasonably-priced, to appeal to the largest number of potential interested parties.
DELIVERABLES
===========
The project deliverables would include:
- parts specifications, drawings, AutoCAD
- supplier lists
- build instructions
- software such as fuel maps
and other such materials as to make the implementation of EFI achievable for all Type 1 engine owners, with or without the help of specialist
suppliers.
COPYRIGHT
========
I believe that all material produced for the project should go under a copyright licence such as the GPL used for open software development, i.e.
anyone contributing to the project should
sign up to their contribution being managed as open-source, in order to avoid tears further down the track.
This would not prevent commercial exploitation of the product, e.g.
- a VW business offering implementations of the AVD EFI system (for profit)
- a VW business offering parts of the AVD EFI for sale
- a VW business taking the AVD EFI project and extending it with prorietary, copyright material, to the extent that this is allowed under the GPL.
That is, the intent would not be to limit commercial opportunities, but to encourage them. Nevertheless, at any time any AVD member or other VW
enthusiast could get a copy of the AVD EFI design
for no charge and build an EFI system based on it without incurring licence fees (but see COSTS below).
PROJECT STRUCTURE
================
The fact that the project would be a collaborative, open-source project does not mean that it would be anarchic or without structure.
A suitable structure would be designed and "work parcels" created within that structure, suitable to allocation to an individual or work-group.
An outline structure example follows:
Project Management
- Coordination
- Task description
- Task allocation
Hardware
- Manifolds
- Injectors
- Throttle Body
- AFM
- Fuel Feed
- Tank modifications
- Swirl pot
- Fuel pumps
- Fuel & return lines
- Pressure regulator
- Rail
- Distributor
Firmware
- ECU
- Sensors
- O2
- Crank position
- CHT
Software
- Maps
- Tuning & calibration
Documentation
- FAQs
- Construction manuals
- Tuning manuals
- Website
Fabrication
- Fabrication techniques
- Materials
- Supply sources
Testing & Tuning
- Dyno testing
- Road & track testing
- endurance testing
VARIANTS
=======
The project, rather than resisting variations, should encourage both offshoot projects and alternate core approaches.
The project does not necessarily need to actively support variants (there is likely to be plenty of work on the core project), but should welcome
variants as strengthening and testing the core project's assumptions.
Variants that I can readily imagine are:
- Turbo version
- Race-spec. version
- Type IV variant
- alternate ECUs
- alternate injectors
MEMBER CONTRIBUTIONS
===================
As can be seen from the project structure, there is scope for individuals with a wide range of skills to contribute to the project. One risk is that
the usual suspects (including people who are already doing similar,
individual projects) end up doing all the heavy lifting. This would, in my opinion, be far from optimal project structure. The project is not
essentially about "who can build the slickest injector manifold?", but
rather "how can we make a reasonably-priced, high-performance AVD EFI system available to the maximum number of VW enthusiats?", a much more useful
goal.
COSTS
=====
Obviously, a project such a this will incur some real costs (i.e. cost of materials, fabrication, dyno time etc.). Several options for offsetting
these costs that come to mind are:
- individuals could choose to wear these costs as they will benefit from the overall project
- sponsorship of existing or new AVD business sponsors could be sought
- a licence fee for the AVD EFI deliverables could be charged
- any combination of the preceding three options
DISCUSSION
=========
As I said in the introduction, the proposal above is intended asa discussion paper. I don't have any vested interestes in this, indeed I don't even
own a Type 1 motor! I would like to see this project take
on a life of its own and none of the concepts or details presented above should be considered as sacred cows.
I welcome your comments.
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Brad
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 12:01 AM |
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I think it is a great idea and would happily help out where possible.
By the time this is sorted I will be in a position where I can CNC cut stuff pretty easy and as such will happily provide those that participate in
the project with very cheap / free template cuts to support the project during the development phase and after that for cost of materials under teh
AVD Banner.
I am also happy to assist with writing some custom windows applications to support the tuning of a solution should it get that far. I like Pete don't
even own a type 1 engine but all my Subaru's look after themselves and a guy has to tinker.
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toplessbug
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 12:01 AM |
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all to easy
1 get M.S--- open source & cheap http://www.msefi.com/index.php
2 use cb manifold ends http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=321
3 injectors go to ebay after reading the M.S manuals for sizing
4pump & reg --- bosch via ebay
the only part to consider is the adaption of a suitable T.B to the manifold that will connect to the manifold ends ,again it will depend on your
application and engine displacement as well as intended use ,all outlined in the M.S manuals
Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
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Brian
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 12:36 AM |
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this should be funny
no way everyones going to agree on several areas
ecu brand ?
manifold/t'bodie design
fuel rail/tank set up
ignitions
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Mick058
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 07:20 AM |
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hmmm, i would be keen to pitch in, i am resourceful but no where near as advanced in my knowledge as other AVD members. In saying that, if you told me
'make this' i could get these things happening. The company i work for is involved in manufacturing and out sourcing, contacts are easy to come
by.
I do agree with Brian though - these decisions could be interesting...
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squizy
A.k.a.: Paul
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 08:46 AM |
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To keep costs down, I could help outsource it to India or China.
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 vw54
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 08:57 AM |
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Are you looking at using an existing brand of ECU or developing an extire new one
I have already done the above on my 65 Orange Smooothie
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Sides
A.k.a.: Dave Sidery
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 10:11 AM |
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Yeah - sounds interesting.
Looks like I'm the third software dev in the list, but I can at least say that I have a Type 1 engine in what's effectively a road-registered race
car, and I'm keen to tinker !!!
VWDCQ vice pres & web dude - vwdcqinc.org.au
Join a car club - get car peeps
My toys
'70 Hillclimb Bug 'Jezebel' w/- Haltech EFI - http://bit.ly/VwTNtQ
'60 KG Coupe - resto kinda started
01 New Beetle - gf's car, but I turn the spanners |
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barls
A.k.a.: Mr indestructible
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 10:32 AM |
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sounds very interesting but i run t4 so will be keeping an eye on it.
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 11:18 AM |
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Let's see if I can keep my normal prolixity down to a minimum...
Buggy Brad: That's great. I think it will be important for the average punter who doesn't have access to engineering facilities at work or via mates
to be able to buy suitable fabricated parts to a standard and know that they'll work.
toplessbug: That approach looks great; the CB Performance manifolds are reasonably priced and of course the MegaSquirt is inexpensive. One thing that
would be great for the project would be to have a continuously-available-current-advice i.e. at any point anyone could pick up the current advice,
even though the project has not reached its final conclusion. Sounds like you have a good roadmap for that; would you like to flesh it out a bit
more?
Brian: You're right that achieving consensus is probably the hardest management task in such a project; nevertheless, projects of this type but much
more complex than this one have succeeded (think of Linux, Wikipedia etc.). One good thing is the choices are not between Good & Evil, Ford &
Holden etc., it's a Volkswagen in the end... So would you like to contribute to the consensus management process of the project?
Mick058: Your contribution would be most welcome; don't worry about your knowledge level, we're all at different points. I could engrave my
practical knowledge of building an EFI system on the head of a pin.
squizy: Sounds like you're putting your hand up to do the cost analysis for the project - something that's sorely needed. What are the major cost
centres? What really drives the cost of such a project? I'm sure if you talk to some of the people on here who have done this or similar (like VW54),
they'll help you get a really good picture of the costs together quickly.
VW54: It hadn't occured to me to develop an new ECU. Are the current crop too poorly featured or expensive? Are you still using the Microtech MTX8
on the Orange smoothie? Your project, with the documentation pulled together, would also provide another continuously-available-current-advice for
people wanting to move forward quickly, plus the whole installation looks very professional from air-cleaner to fuel pump and, to my mind, fits very
well with the philosophy of this project. I personally don't have a problem with having two or more sets of current advice.
Sides: There must be something about these projects which attracts software devs. I can't think of a better test harness than a road beetle which
sees some trackwork, with an owner willing to tinker. I guess you're signing up as an early adopter?
barls: I also have a t4 in my Transporter (with carbs) do I'm interested in the eventual offshoot projects. Other than manifolds, maps and sensors,
I imagine most of what applies to, say a 1776 t1 would apply, or could be scaled, to a t4. But don't just keep an eye on it; come on board!
Thanks to all for the input to date; there seems to be genuine interest in the concept. It's great that people have already put up their hands to be
part of this at a practical level; we still need more AVD members to do the same even for very limited roles and regardless of
experience.
hth
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vw54
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| posted on December 24th, 2008 at 11:50 AM |
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Well from others experience the Autronic appears to be the best as it has a self tunning program. So you fit it up with a basic program then
take along to the guy with the laptop and software and go for a run
I am NO expert here but for the price of the ECU and dyno tuning costs as well it appears ( the Autronic ) to be VALUE for money especially
when you have a pro dyno tunner perfect your car at x amount of dollars per hour
Yes i am still running the microteck MTX8 which is comparision to the later versioins are relatively cheaper to pick up S/H ebay etc etc for
my project it was ideal although if i had to buy a new one i would go with the autronic self tune
Thanks for the kind words on my set up I tried to make as FACTORY looking as possible with out the clutter some others have
The car runs so smooth now NO flat spots just a little ruff for the first klm or so untill the heat sinks in
Mine was NOT an excerise in power out put more so a engine that would run on stock unleaded petrol and have a little more grunt and more efficient
the efificiency hasnt happened fuel economy is down but this would be due to the increase in capacity and my lead foot ( aint been caught to date )
The drivability of the car is WAY up so nice on a trip heaps of power in comparision to a stock 1500 engine and carby engines
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andrewmurphy
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| posted on December 25th, 2008 at 06:20 AM |
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Just my two cents in regards to this sort of project.
For this to work, a good project manager to co-ordinate, and to keep a focus in the right direction is essential.
This project manager is not 'the boss', he is a facilitator that ensures that the project's main goals are what is being worked towards. In regard
to 'variations' they can be mini-projects with their own project team and manager.
He also can also act as mediation when disagreements occur (as they always do). Differences of opinion are actually beneficial, if ego and pride are
kept at bay. This is because there is generally no 'right' or 'wrong' just perception. So what someone thinks is a good idea someone else will
think is rubbish (for instance there will be people that think what i am saying is dribble)
Getting concensus is extremely hard to get and the more people that are involved the harder it is to get, so someone responsable for keeping focus on
project goals rather than an individual's goal would be important.
| Quote: |
rnrnBrian: You're right that achieving consensus is probably the hardest management task in such a project; nevertheless, projects of this type but
much more complex than this one have succeeded (think of Linux, Wikipedia etc.). One good thing is the choices are not between Good & Evil, Ford
& Holden etc., it's a Volkswagen in the end... So would you like to contribute to the consensus management process of the project?
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Camo
A.k.a.: Kev
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| posted on December 25th, 2008 at 08:06 AM |
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Wow, this is something I have been waiting for. A bolt on EFI system here in Oz and at a reasonable cost (we all hope). Not sure if I can be much
help, but am glad to offer my car as a test mule 
As to sourcing parts from CB Performance etc, there will always be variances due to the Aussie dollar rating at the time of purchase. Maybe someone
like George at Classic VeeDubs may be able to help due to his buying power from the large amount of shipping that he is continually doing.
Also, another small problem may be that anyone that's involved in the organisation of such a kit may live in many different parts of Australia. So
this would make it hard for all to sit down and have a good old discussion about it.
Anyway, love the idea and if I can help please ask.
Merry Christmas, Kevin
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vw54
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| posted on December 25th, 2008 at 08:33 AM |
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depends on what you call cheap mine doing most my self labour wish and sourcing parts cost about $2500 without the computor
Also had lots of advice from others which helped out big time
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type3lover
A.k.a.: The Smashed Repairer
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in the garage...
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| posted on December 25th, 2008 at 10:43 AM |
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Great Idea!!!
I've managed to successfully convert my type 3 to EFI with a Megasquirt II and Innovate wideband o2 controller.
Much of the EFI hardware is second hand and cost me bugger all.
Still tuning, but it runs brilliantly and so much better that points and carbs. The fuel delivery and spark timing values can be tuned close to
perfect.
I'd be happy to offer feedback on megasquirt being used as the base EFI controller for this project.
I'll be watching this one...
Cheers, T 
.
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 25th, 2008 at 11:16 PM |
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Forgive the consolidated replies once again:
vw54: I'd like your permission to extract the data from your orange smoothie EFI posts and consolidate it in a comparative spreadsheet that would be
a record of actual implementations (I guess there are about 6-8 relevant examples among AVD members). In addition, I'd like you to send me any extra
detailed info. you might have about suppliers, costs etc. etc. so that I can add to this knowledgebase. Any costing information would be greatly
appreciated; at some (early) point in the project I guess we have to quantify what is meant by "reasonably-priced".
andrewmurhpy: Agree with all your points. Even with good facilitators/project managers, some collaborative projects run up onto the rocks. I guess
we'll get to where we get. Would you like a role in the project co-ordination? Would you like to be the project manager? (serious questions; no
retoric)
Camo: Good points, especially about the geographic dispersion. I would intend to rely on the wonders of the internet for e.g. virtual meetings, using
internet telephony and cheap webcams, but I haven't thought any of this through well. Welcome aboard as a test mule provider!
type3lover: As for vw54 above, I'd like to include your implementation in the comparative spreadsheet that would be a record of actual
implementations. Is that OK with you? Also sounds like you have specific expertise to add in the area of O2 sensors, possibly one of the keys to
closed-loop tuning and driveability.
General; Thanks for the feed back. Looks to me that there is enough enthusiasm to carry this forward. As a temporary home for the various documents,
lists, etc. which will be generated, I've allocated some space at:
http://modulus.com.au/avdefi/
Not much to see there now, but we need a place to hold spreadsheets, lists, docos., drawings etc.
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andrewmurphy
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 06:40 AM |
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| Quote: |
andrewmurphy: Agree with all your points. Even with good facilitators/project managers, some collaborative projects run up onto the rocks. I guess
we'll get to where we get. Would you like a role in the project co-ordination? Would you like to be the project manager? (serious questions; no
retoric)
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Thankyou for the offer but a am currently working 60hrs a week and as of early next year this will increase to 70hrs (i am in the middle of a $6mil
electrical construction project in NZ) My WAF (wife acceptance factor) in this would be very low. This project sounds awesome though, and i will
participate when and where i can.
I have just purchased an EFI system from CB Performance for a 2275 i am getting built at Crankshaft Engineering. I am more than happy to share any
information from this system.
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vw54
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 06:41 PM |
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| Quote: |
rnrnvw54: I'd like your permission to extract the data from your orange smoothie EFI posts and consolidate it in a comparative spreadsheet
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yep thas what i did it for all to see and use
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cb john
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 10:12 PM |
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Even though I'm not believer that communal projects can work, I'm offering my limited skills and manufacturing expertise... If anyone suggests one
more time India or China as the place of cheap manufacturing, please, forget I wrote this ...
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 11:18 PM |
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cb john: manufacturing expertise will be most welcome. With 20/20 hindsight I should have called it a "collaborative" project rather than
"communal" - "communal" project sounds like something that doesn't get done by a bunch of hippies, whereas the intention is something that *does*
get done by people with diverse skills working in collaboration.
hth
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 11:28 PM |
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Hi
Interesting project idea. I was surfing and found this local ECU http://www.adaptronic.com.au.
Seems reasonably priced.
Steve
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cb john
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 11:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by modulus
cb john: manufacturing expertise will be most welcome. With 20/20 hindsight I should have called it a "collaborative" project rather than
"communal" - "communal" project sounds like something that doesn't get done by a bunch of hippies, whereas the intention is something that *does*
get done by people with diverse skills working in collaboration.
hth
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A modest proposal for a communal AVD EFI project
I know what you mean, but this is the original heading...
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 11:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
Interesting project idea. I was surfing and found this local ECU http://www.adaptronic.com.au.
Seems reasonably priced.
Steve
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Thank you. Added to the list for evaluation; there are now over a dozen on that list - links can be found at the temporary project home, as per my
sig.
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david777
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| posted on December 26th, 2008 at 11:50 PM |
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This sounds very interesting. Unfortunately I have very little time or expertise to add at present.
I've been looking at EFI for my 1916 and the prices for off the shelf units are significant.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=71265
Anything that would bring the price down sounds great!
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 27th, 2008 at 02:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by david777
Anything that would bring the price down sounds great!
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Well, the charter of the project includes "reasonably-priced" as one of the goals, so we'll be looking for a balance between performance and
pricing.
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
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| posted on December 27th, 2008 at 02:26 PM |
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I have changed the title of this thread, as with the positive feedback and number of people who have indicated a willingness to contribute, it is no
longer a "proposal".
I have also created an EFI overview article at the AVD EFI Project Website (http://www.modulus.com.au/avdefi/) in an attempt to get a summary of the basics and some of the considerations for the VW T1
motor on paper, and would appreciate any feedback on that article from AVders who have the time to have a look.
TIA
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StenGuns
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| posted on December 27th, 2008 at 03:52 PM |
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Good luck in a task that most would never consider taking on (for no financial return)
I recently modified my 1916 to EFI as part of a complete resto of a 1967 beetle.. The theme was to maintain, 1960's VW cool with contemporary but
subtle modifications in design and functionality..
Unfortunately I am not an engineering guru and restricted myself to the project management and aesthetic considerations.. I did, however, employ the
best people I could find (many AVD members) to do essential parts of the project.. Certainly one of the most satisfying was the engine build and EFI
conversion.. I love the increased power and usability that EFI has given this car..
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modulus
A.k.a.: Peter Hill
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2009
Threads: 76
Registered: July 1st, 2003
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Location: Melbourne
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Mood: modular
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 12:42 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by StenGuns
Good luck in a task that most would never consider taking on (for no financial return)
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As Homer would say "What could possibly go wrong?"
I have made a rough start on the comparison of ECUs/EMSs, which can be found at the project site:
http://www.modulus.com.au/avdefi/
Look for the link "ECU Comparison Spreadsheet". Suggestions for other ECUs/EMSs to be included would be welcome.
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koolkarmakombi
Veteran Volks Folk
enkarmarising
Posts: 2078
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Registered: June 16th, 2003
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Location: viva brisvegas
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Mood: do you see the bats?
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 10:00 AM |
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reading it now.
I reckon this is a great idea. I have been toying with efi ideas for years. I have the engine sitting waiting for a rework, a car to sit it in and
to efi it to learn more about it.
I have been keen on MS but only as it is really diy. Diy works for me as time (I have little) is cheaper for me than $$$ with young kiddies.....
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philew
Casual Dubber
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Registered: August 27th, 2008
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| posted on December 29th, 2008 at 08:44 PM |
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great work Peter/modulus and others......i am also hugely interested...though probably have little to offer to help with the project.
even from an enviromental perspective this is something worth striving for.
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