| [ Total Views: 2882 | Total Replies: 29 | Thread Id: 74109 ] |
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 paladin
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 10:10 AM |
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A Pillar and wheel arch rust - $800 sound fair?
Hey all!
As some of you know, have just begun looking at what needs doing to get my bug up to scratch. I want to make her a daily driver for some years to
come.
I have rust. Everywhere I look I’m finding little bits more, but mostly just surface stuff so far. The main area of concern is at the bottom of my A
pillars and up into the wheel arches. I’ll show photos in a sec.
I’m told you can do a repair with some gaffer tape and then fibreglass over the top of it.
Here’s the rust. I’ve banged around with a screwdriver and think this is the worst of it.
Driver’s side: A pillar with some rust into the wheel arch. Heater channel and interior channel of A pillar seem sound. It’s mostly the outer
skin, and extends all the way around to the outside skin of the car. Obviously this is giving the door unwanted flex too:
Passenger’s side: Same as the above, but worse. You can see the wheel arch in this case is rotted through. Again, heater channel looks OK from what
I’ve been able to see so far, but it may have been fiddled with in the past from the looks of it:
By the way, I was just kidding about the fibreglass and gaffer tape  I
know I need to get this patched and welded properly.
I’m willing to have a go at basic body stuff like getting out chips and dings, replacing some cracked and/or crazed paint, painting a panel here and
there, etc etc. I have most of the gear and a lot of patience. I’m not after a show car, just one that is safe to drive and relatively sound. Paint
is off being made to colour match at the moment.
What I don’t have the gear for and frankly aren’t game to try and learn myself in isolation (a TAFE course may be a possibility down the track) is
weld. I’ve never welded in my life, and will just end up blowing holes and wrecking the job, I think. So I need to get the replacement patches and
so on done professionally (or if anyone here has a better idea, I’m all ears. If anyone here would like the work and could do a good job then I’m
happy to pay). I’ve had a quote to fix the above and would like to know what y’all think.
The first body shop I went to (recommended by a VW person here in Brissie) quoted $1800 to fix this, with a wait of two months before they could
start. I got the hint. By fix I mean I asked them to fabricate some suitable replacement patches, weld them in and then grind the welds. After
chatting to them for a bit, I found their fob-off price was because the previous owner has passed on and the shop is now looking mostly for insurance
work.
Drove then to another local body shop, who had done some work on my 914 in the past, and who I found to be good but a bit exxy – ten years ago
anyway. Anyway, on pulling in to my delight I saw two Kombies in the shop, a Kombie ute and also a 914. So clearly they’re VW sympathetic and seemed
familiar with the cars and their quirks. They’ve quoted me $700-$800 to do the work.
What do you guys think? Does that sound fair? Even if it isn’t I guess I’ll have to pay it, as I don’t want to junk this car, but I’m
interested in knowing if I’m paying over the odds or not. Maybe I should shop around a bit more. Any other advice or input would be appreciated.
Thanks heaps.
Craig.
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pod
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 10:56 AM |
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you can get the a pillar replacement panels at most veedub shops for around $20 each side then the inner guard part you can use plain sheet like
this
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paladin
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 11:15 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pod
you can get the a pillar replacement panels at most veedub shops for around $20 each side then the inner guard part you can use plain sheet like this
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Thanks pod/paul! Yeah - I guess the fabrication is easyish if you know what you're doing. Like I said, though, I can't weld. Reading between the
lines - do you reckon $800 is a bit steep to get someone else to do it then?
Love your work though! I will have to take one of those 6 week TAFE courses sometime. I think this is something that must be very satisfying to be
able to do.
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VWCOOL
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 11:17 AM |
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Sorry to say that looks to me to be serious rust - keep poking and you will find more; attempt to weld within inches of those 'holes' and I reckon
the metal will just evaporate
I wouldn't be even thinking about matching paint etc etc until you have reshelled the car or got some quite expensive welding done - so $800 sounds
like a good deal to me if it is for both sides
It looks like it's been 'tarted up' in the past - black paint etc
Sorry...
Pay your debts, CxxT
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paladin
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 01:55 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VWCOOL
Sorry to say that looks to me to be serious rust - keep poking and you will find more; attempt to weld within inches of those 'holes' and I reckon
the metal will just evaporate
I wouldn't be even thinking about matching paint etc etc until you have reshelled the car or got some quite expensive welding done - so $800 sounds
like a good deal to me if it is for both sides
It looks like it's been 'tarted up' in the past - black paint etc
Sorry...
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Hey mate!
No that's fine. I'm prepared for it to be not so great. I'm going to go with plan B (the expensive welding). Because this is a Wizard chop top,
reshelling the car isn't such an option. I do want to keep her on the road, though, so guess I'll just throw money at her until she's done. $800
was for both sides, and he said he'd done several similar jobs in the past.
I'd start cutting bits to see just how far the rust goes out but don't want to stuff things up for the body shop.
If $800 sounds in the ball park then I'm happy to stump it up. The guy said he thought there was about 13-15 hours work in it, if that helps give any
indication - and these chaps do specialise in fabrication and welding.
Yeah, there's quite a layer of deadener in there. It's tar like and no doubt is hiding all manner of sins.
Just took isome of the goo off around the base of the pillar for a better look. Someone has put quite the weld in there before. The heater channel
does look a bit thin around the base. Oh dear.
Best to start photo documenting the job, eh?
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kroozzn63
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 02:14 PM |
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try 3 hours if they actually do it from start to finish with tea breaks etc "wasting time" but that seems a tad steep id say $250 a side is still
good money including plate ... ask around first a few guys on here should be able to point u in the right direction..good luck
show us your gates
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paladin
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 02:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by kroozzn63
try 3 hours if they actually do it from start to finish with tea breaks etc "wasting time" but that seems a tad steep id say $250 a side is still
good money including plate ... ask around first a few guys on here should be able to point u in the right direction..good luck
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That's interesting. Hmm. Well if anyone wants to point me in a better direction I'm all ears! Happy to return the favor in any way I can think of or
you can see fit!
Cleaned away some of the deadener (wire brush on a power drill only), and this is a clearer shot of the rust on the driver's side, showing the old
weld that was under that gunk:
As a complete aside, I think the light yellow paint at the bottom was the factory color. I quite like it I have to say.
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Dilbert
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 04:28 PM |
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shame your not anywhere near me or id be happy to lend a hand. doesn't look anywhere near as bad as mine were when i cleaned up the area.
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paladin
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 05:03 PM |
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Thanks Dilbert! One of the best things about owning a beetle? All the other people who have them too. That absolutely includes the gang here. I look
forward to meeting some of you in person soon. I'm actually really looking forward also to getting some better skills on the body and mechanicals so
I can help others out too. And really looking forward to joining the local club once I have her halfway decent - too embarrasing to take her along at
the moment Reassuring anyway to know that people have seen worse
I've been working on other panels today that had chips and cracks and they're coming up nicely. Lovely way to spend a Saturday! I have to lay some
pavers tomorrow and plasterboard a wall and then a big week at work, so I'll have a bit of a break from the car for a few days 
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pod
A.k.a.: paul mrvw061
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 06:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by paladin
And really looking forward to joining the local club once I have her halfway decent - too embarrasing to take her along at the moment
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hey just go along ,my first 3-4 months with my club i was still building mine,you`ll find they wont judge your for your car as most might not have
seen a wizard roadster before
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 10:24 PM |
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You can do it urself dude... u said u were patient. just get urself a mig welder (Arc welder WILL just burn holes and make a mess), and from say Mick
Motors get the replacement A pillar panels. Grind out enough metal to fit those whole replacement panels in firm but flush (as possible). Spot weld it
all around to hold it in place, double check. and than go for gold by seam welding.
Do some welding (how to) research first of course. U don't need to go to TAFE. But remember, even if its a messy job, or u burn a hole, u can add
metal to fill that hole by filling it with weld... or, by making sure its structurally sound after u weld that panel in, u can always tidy the surface
with fibreglass. (i would recommend fibreglass rather than bog on the a pillars cause they flex if u bash ur door shut or fling it open quick, and the
bog just cracks... the fibreglass just flexes...
I practiced welding on a couple bits of sheet metal to try to get some right angle joints, and connect sheets this way and that way for 5 mins... and
i got stuck in. My A pillars were that rusted out the whole dash was practically floating there. Its solid as a rock now. saved $1800, got a
structurally sound A pillar and have it looking schmick by giving it a flat smooth surface with fibreglass.
The body has been sitting out in the weather since the 2 yrs ago i did that repair, and it has not rusted up again since then. i still can fly kick it
and it don' break! [I had the 'bash' test... cheap way to make sureit holds lol.]
But far out... thats an expensive quote. I never knew they were worth that much, i neva priced a pillar replacements before.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Brad
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 10:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by kroozzn63
try 3 hours if they actually do it from start to finish with tea breaks etc "wasting time" but that seems a tad steep id say $250 a side is still
good money including plate ... ask around first a few guys on here should be able to point u in the right direction..good luck
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3 hrs ?? man I have seen it take over half an hr a side just to get doors off old beetles. If you can do two bottom door hinge sections and iner wheel
wells in an easy 3 hrs properly you are a legend ..
Remove doors - hope all screws come out
Cut out section.
Tack in new section, fit doors, check alignment
Weld out section, refit doors, adjust / shim as required.
Not saying you can't but I reckon an easy 3 hrs is an understatement and no business in their right mind would quote anything like that at all, nore
should they.
I reckon if you can find someone who will do both bottom pillars for $800 it is a good deal and I would get it done.
Just remember if you stuff it up your doors will never work properly and it will give you the Sh^%s, how many beetls have you been in with crappy
hanging doors ....
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hellbugged
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| posted on January 17th, 2009 at 10:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Buggy Brad
3 hrs ?? man I have seen it take over half an hr a side just to get doors off old beetles. If you can do two bottom door hinge sections and iner wheel
wells in an easy 3 hrs properly you are a legend ..
Remove doors - hope all screws come out
Cut out section.
Tack in new section, fit doors, check alignment
Weld out section, refit doors, adjust / shim as required.
Not saying you can't but I reckon an easy 3 hrs is an understatement and no business in their right mind would quote anything like that at all, nore
should they.
I reckon if you can find someone who will do both bottom pillars for $800 it is a good deal and I would get it done.
Just remember if you stuff it up your doors will never work properly and it will give you the Sh^%s, how many beetls have you been in with crappy
hanging doors ....
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yep, i'll second that, one $800 is fine
add `removal/re-install of front mud guards, and consequent headlights, blinker, bumpers to the list of associated labour
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paladin
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| posted on January 18th, 2009 at 09:00 AM |
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Righto. Thanks all! I think I'll just go ahead with the $800 and get it done right.
I've tried Pming you guys this morning to send individual thanks, but for some reason PM isn't working well for me. So thanks heaps pod, vwcool (yet
again!), kroozzn63, Dilbert, bajachris88, Buggy Brad, and hellbugged. You've helped give me some peace of mind.
Bajachris - thanks for the encouragement. I've tossed and turned over the idea of trying to have a go myself. I spent a bit of time reading up about
mig welding and so on late last night and the advice seems to be:
Mig needs to have gas (not gasless) for good body work. Not only is it harder to weld thin panels with the gasless, but it's almost impossible not to
get some acidic residue left in the weld that will eat paint etc after. So it's good to have an expensive mig to do it right. Of course I could hire
one but at $80 a day I reckon I'd need a while to just get familair with the technique and try out test panels etc so not really cost effective for
me. I love your test technique!
I do also like the idea of having a new toy at the end, but am not sure I'll be doing enough welding work after to justify the expense of buying the
right mig, mask etc as it would exceed the cost of the quote.
Given that this is structural and not a battery pan or something and that there is the question of proper door alignment and so on, I reckon I'll err
on the side of caution.
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paladin
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| posted on January 18th, 2009 at 09:02 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by pod
| Quote: | Originally
posted by paladin
And really looking forward to joining the local club once I have her halfway decent - too embarrasing to take her along at the moment
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hey just go along ,my first 3-4 months with my club i was still building mine,you`ll find they wont judge your for your car as most might not have
seen a wizard roadster before
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Yeah - I'll have to get off my butt and join. Thanks!
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kroozzn63
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| posted on January 18th, 2009 at 09:21 AM |
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Ok i had a coffee my mind was racing when its listed out u guys are probally right if "and you have to look at all the pit falls that may turn up
"Like it did take me an hour of blood sweet and tears to try and get an early drivers side mirrior off and found out u need a special tool. that was
a lesson learnt.lol , man has your wizard have the rear dickey seat that folds up and down ?
show us your gates
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paladin
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| posted on January 18th, 2009 at 09:56 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by kroozzn63
Ok i had a coffee my mind was racing when its listed out u guys are probally right if "and you have to look at all the pit falls that may turn up
"Like it did take me an hour of blood sweet and tears to try and get an early drivers side mirrior off and found out u need a special tool. that was
a lesson learnt.lol , man has your wizard have the rear dickey seat that folds up and down ?
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Hey mate!
No the rear seat doesn't fold. It basically cosists of a flat shelf over the battery etc with access holes to the battery under the cushions and
another sheet that sits vertically and you have to slide up and out. Means there is wasted space behind that which I've been wanting to convert to a
luggage space. So Making a hinged panel for that is on my list and something I can comfortably do myself out of wood and fibreglass. That's once I
have other things sorted. My running list for the time being goes something like: 1. Engine cooling measures (replace tinware, proper sealing,
hoodjax, plus timing/tune/plugs/points/ rebuild and properly clean Solex carbie etc) 2. Body work - remove rust 3. Body work - interior paint and
rustproofing to interiors of panels, floor pans etc 4. Body work - rustproofing to underside 5. Body work - exterior paint.
After this is done I can look at messing about with the interior as it's looking a bit ordinary in there. I've been using her as a defacto ute while
renovating my house so the interior has copped a bit of a battering over the last year. That's one nice thing about the kit and amount of space in
the rear seat. I fitted six doors in there upright not long ago! Also, pop out the passenger seat and you can get quite long bits of structural timber
in there, neatly tied off to the roll bar Had a 5m hardwood beam in
there the other day - which does get you some looks on the freeway! Not as many as when I had 5 full bamboo plants on the rear seat though and the
thing looked like a mobile slice of Vietnam. People (even cops) seem to see the funny side though - have never been pulled over.
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1303Steve
A.k.a.: Steve Carter
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| posted on January 19th, 2009 at 08:17 AM |
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Hi
I had a thought about this rust problem. What if you found a donor front 1/2 of a body. Cut through your heater channels and then fit a complete new
front and then you would also need to your windscreen area swapped over as well.
There must be rust free fronts around that maybe the rear end has had a shunt.
This "cut & shut" method is very common way of repairing a damaged front or rear of a bug.
Steve
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paladin
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| posted on January 19th, 2009 at 06:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 1303Steve
Hi
I had a thought about this rust problem. What if you found a donor front 1/2 of a body. Cut through your heater channels and then fit a complete new
front and then you would also need to your windscreen area swapped over as well.
There must be rust free fronts around that maybe the rear end has had a shunt.
This "cut & shut" method is very common way of repairing a damaged front or rear of a bug.
Steve
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Cheers mate! I appreciate that you've put some thought in here. Sounds like a sound idea for a standard bug.
The problem with this for me is, again being a Wizard, that the windscreen surround is pretty non-standard, chopped down and reinforced. So I reckon
that adds a degree fo complexity to this kind of replacement? I guess I could graft the existing windscreen back on to another front end, or come up
with something similar, but again the problem that comes into play is messing about too much with the kit.
I actually know of three bugs sitting around wanting demolition, so access to decent bodies wouldn't be a problem, I guess. If I had the space here a
donor car is definately looking like it would come in handy (I know someone who has 2 who wants $600 for both - but I've not seen the condition).
Sadly, the garage is already brimfull of junk.
Definately seeing the virtues of owning a standard bug when it comes to these things!
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 helbus
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| posted on January 19th, 2009 at 06:16 PM |
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I would say looking at the rust there and going by my experience of looking at, cutting and repairing hundreds of cars for rustoration. $800 is not
unreasonable. As Brad explained, and I will add to it.
Remove panels as required. Doors being a bit of a bugger often.
Then cut out the rusted area to the area that the rust replacement section size allows
Then find there is a tag, brace, parallel panel, nut, etc. rusted that the new panel needs to weld to is rusted
Fabricate and weld extra 'small' bits in
Trim areas to create acceptable fit.
Modify replacement sections, tweak, hammer, shape to create a more acceptable fit. Refit doors to recheck alignment
Zinc weld prime inside panel weld areas.
Fit panels and painfully weld slowly and surely to not create a junk end finish
Linish weld beads.
Refit doors to check alignment
Done
The preparation and alignment is the important part.
It is unquotable to a certain degree, but you can ask for many digital images, drop in to see yourself every day, or even ask for a written diarised
account of what was done each day.
I would say 12 hrs at $80 per hour as an estimate
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paladin
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| posted on January 19th, 2009 at 06:35 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
I would say looking at the rust there and going by my experience of looking at, cutting and repairing hundreds of cars for rustoration. $800 is not
unreasonable. As Brad explained, and I will add to it.
Remove panels as required. Doors being a bit of a bugger often.
Then cut out the rusted area to the area that the rust replacement section size allows
Then find there is a tag, brace, parallel panel, nut, etc. rusted that the new panel needs to weld to is rusted
Fabricate and weld extra 'small' bits in
Trim areas to create acceptable fit.
Modify replacement sections, tweak, hammer, shape to create a more acceptable fit. Refit doors to recheck alignment
Zinc weld prime inside panel weld areas.
Fit panels and painfully weld slowly and surely to not create a junk end finish
Linish weld beads.
Refit doors to check alignment
Done
The preparation and alignment is the important part.
It is unquotable to a certain degree, but you can ask for many digital images, drop in to see yourself every day, or even ask for a written diarised
account of what was done each day.
I would say 12 hrs at $80 per hour as an estimate
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Thanks heaps Helbus! You seem to be the man when it comes to these things, so that's reassuring. I'm not going to be that much of a pain to the poor
blokes doing the work that I'll ask for pikkies for a relatively small job (although I'd happily hang around to watch if I didn't know that would
be making a bloody nuisance of myself), but I'll ask them to grind the welds and not to put stuff over the top of it and will post 'after' pics
here for those who are interested.
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helbus
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| posted on January 19th, 2009 at 06:47 PM |
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Pretty much all panel shops have digital camera's these days. You wont be a pain by asking for pics of the areas once cut out, once zinc primed, once
tacked and welded before grinding. That's what we do at my work. 300 pics and even going up to 600 pics on a restoration is not unusual. The picture
can answer so many questions. Don't be shy about it, you seem to be reasonable to understand it will not be a NEW CAR when finished, and I am sure
they will do the best they can in the most economical way.
Cutting a front off another car and fitting it will end up in a full restoration and it will just start at $10K figures and work from there. Fair if
you want to play with something like a Porsche 356 and get a certain result. I can see you are working to achieve a result that will make you happy
and if this repair shop can provide that at a reasonable cost with a fair end result, then you make the decision to go ahead and do it.
I am certainly interested in what your outcome is, and look forward to good result.
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paladin
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
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| posted on February 5th, 2009 at 12:08 PM |
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Hey all!
Well she's back from the body shop, so I thought I'd post a little update.
A fair whack of the passanger side around the A pillar and up into the wheel arch needed cutting away, although the rust was confined to the base of
the A pillar and along the weld between heater channel and wheel arch. Some work needed around the wheel arch where the guard bolts on and where bolts
weren't grabbing properly. The drivers side (above) needed a bit less work. The lads welded in some extra stiffening inside the pillars also. $800
charged. Doors are well aligned and not saggy anymore (and the door hinge bolts were all siezed, so needed drilling out etc).
The good news is that they gave the old girl a good looking over, and other than minor issues in the battery pan, the bottom of the doors and in some
paint chips looks like we're more or less rust free now. Heater channels are all sound underneath.
The body shop was D&L Moss and Son at Sumner Park for those interested. As I posted earlier, they have a lot of VWs on the go in the shop and seem
to know them pretty well. I'm happy with the outcome.
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kroozzn63
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on February 5th, 2009 at 06:53 PM |
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pics
show us your gates
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vwtyp2
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on February 5th, 2009 at 09:42 PM |
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$800 is a bargain.
I just paid $500 for the repair sections for my '54.
mine were that bad I had to cut them out completely
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Most people seem normal, till you get to know them.
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paladin
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Posts: 79
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Location: Kenmore, Brisbane
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Mood: Abandoning my search for truth and now looking for a good fantasy.
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| posted on February 6th, 2009 at 09:16 AM |
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Hey all. Kroozzn63 - camera is with my g/f at the moment, but will try to take some pics on the weekend.
vwtyp2 - mate that's some lovely looking work there. Wish I could do that kind of thing myself!Your passanger side looks much the same as mine did,
except the rust on mine extended maybe another 10cm or so along the weld to the heater channel towards the front of the car. How lovely to be bringing
an original '54 back to life!
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Capn Steve
Casual Dubber
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| posted on August 18th, 2009 at 09:11 AM |
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Hi Paladin, Did you end up getting this work done and are you happy with the result? I have the same repair to do and while i would love to try to do
it myself i think it's way beyond my ability. If your happy with the repair i may get the guys from D & L Moss to give me a quote. 
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paladin
Slammed & Awesome Dubber
Posts: 79
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Registered: January 1st, 2009
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Location: Kenmore, Brisbane
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Mood: Abandoning my search for truth and now looking for a good fantasy.
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| posted on August 18th, 2009 at 01:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Capn Steve
Hi Paladin, Did you end up getting this work done and are you happy with the result? I have the same repair to do and while i would love to try to do
it myself i think it's way beyond my ability. If your happy with the repair i may get the guys from D & L Moss to give me a quote.
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Hey mate.
Bear in mind that I'm no expert so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I'm happy with the work performed - with one minor caveat. My doors have
sagged slightly since the repair so they're not quite as tight a shut as they were directly after it was repaired. This is probably due to there
being a couple of missing screws from where they had to drill the old ones out (they did advise me of this at the time).
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colonel mustard
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on August 18th, 2009 at 03:33 PM |
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What road is that body shop on??? Need to get a quote on the rear of my car...
Craig, did you ever get my PM regarding hoodjaxs??? Let me know.
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FinallyGotADub
Learner Dubber
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Registered: September 4th, 2009
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| posted on September 8th, 2009 at 07:55 PM |
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Hi,
Interesting thread. I am a VW newbie and found this forum the other day. I seem to find myself reading it for hours every night at the moment. It
is very entertaining.
A mate and I have just done the A pillars on his 64 Beetle. We fabricated our own replacement panels rather than buying them. Having the replacement
panels would have saved probably 4 or 5 hours I guess.
Overall it took us about 15 hours I think. The rust was way more extensive than we thought and a fair bit of time on the first 4 hour "session" was
spent trying to work out how to go about it.
I think that the $800 definitely sounds like a fair price for this job. It is lengthy and can be fiddly.
The 64 repair job was the first time I had worked on a Beetle. That was about a month ago. I now own one - a 1970 Beetle that I bought from the 64
owner. I don't have it yet but it also has rust, so I expect I'll be spending plenty of time with the welder!
James
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