| [ Total Views: 7801 | Total Replies: 44 | Thread Id: 74848 ] |
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 Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 08:34 PM |
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Time to supercharge? The process begins...
Thought this might be of interest to some (except all you dyed in the wool N/A fans 
A fellow now working for me a couple days a week (Robert) also works for Bullet Cars and has introduced me to the concept of the Rotrex superchargers.
I am thinking of building an engine (maybe a mild 1916) or waiting until my type IV is built (mild 2056) for my splitty and installing one of these
units. [unless I can pursuade Brad that he "needs" one for his 2110 in his ghia!]
Anyway I won't put up too much cut and pasted info here as the links of interest where you can read more are:
Bullet: http://www.bulletcars.com/superchargers/rotrex.html
Rotrex:
http://www.rotrex.com/index1.htm
Rotrex setup:
http://www.rotrex.com/pdfs/Rotrex_Setup_and_maintenance_leaflet_V4.3.pdf
Here are a couple pics of the smallest unit Rotrex offers. On a type I I'm thinking of maybe integrating a serpentine pulley with longer belt rather
than an additional pulley on the crank pulley. All just thinking out aloud for now, but may be quite interesting as an alternative to
turbo/traditional superchargers.
Cheers
Al
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 08:49 PM |
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Mmmm,
I love stuff what's dfferent to the norm.
Bah, Bah.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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blup58
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 09:30 PM |
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Hmmm - that engine bay looks familiar.
I bet the owner is a top bloke, hung like a horse and good with the ladies..........
Don't suppose he wants to donate as a trial on a VW - good marketing might open up a whole new market.
I don't think the owner would mind the donation?
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 09:38 PM |
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Hehehe, good bloke maybe but having spoken to the owner's wife on occasion she has confidently dismissed the other two attributes 
On a serious note they are keen to get these things out there, but unfortunately I don't think they'll donate this one.....and I think Robert will
notice if it goes missing 
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reub
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 10:11 PM |
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Interesting...
...hmmm, i've one of those scat serpentine belts on my 8:1 compression 1916 (or 1915....whateva) engine in my 58....hmmm
Reub
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westi
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| posted on February 19th, 2009 at 11:54 PM |
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i have installed a stack of those,you won't be disapointed.
great little unit.you will make 250 no sweet.and they sound cool screamin there head off.can't wait to see this one.
down sharon.
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matara
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 09:30 AM |
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Al, I'm clueless on supercharging although I've been learning a far bit about turbo charging. Where does the supercharger sit in respect to the
carbs? Is it the equivalnet of blow through or suck through? I guess its all just like a turbo with the exception that you don't have to have any
plumbing from the headers.
Cheers
Steve
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 09:52 AM |
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Al CES does all the pipe work for bullit cars from memory. MX5's with a Lexus/toyota V8 in the front. Nice power to weight and even more so with a
Rotrex on it!!
I know of quite a few Celica guys who have Rotrex's fitted to the 1.8L 2ZZ Toyota engines. Make good HP and the big plus is you don't need a hell of
a lot of room to fit them.
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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kroozzn63
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 12:06 PM |
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so whos gunna do a bolt on kit ? if you bolted it to a stock 1600 would that be totally stupid or would it handle if not pushed hard a give a little
buzz?
show us your gates
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 helbus
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 04:42 PM |
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Would look nice attached to a Subaru EJ22. Blow straight into the manifold!
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
A.k.a.: Brennden Alder
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 06:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Would look nice attached to a Subaru EJ22. Blow straight into the manifold!
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yeah i spose it would seeing as they need all the torque they can get
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 06:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matara
Al, I'm clueless on supercharging although I've been learning a far bit about turbo charging. Where does the supercharger sit in respect to the
carbs? Is it the equivalnet of blow through or suck through? I guess its all just like a turbo with the exception that you don't have to have any
plumbing from the headers.
Cheers
Steve
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Steve, although I still have research to do, aparently with carb/s it can be plumbed in pre (draw through) or post (blow through) supercharger. If
used in blow through configuration the carb/s throttle shafts etc reportedly need to be sealed as per turbo blow through setup.
Re. kits etc, probably getting ahead of ourselves as I am really keen to do/assist with the development on a vw aircooled engine first to iron out the
bugs/problems. Given Robert's ties with both Bullet and DAS Resto Haus, it is a good opportunity to explore its application with the humble little
volksies.
Cheers
Al
PS will now start looking to build a type I (probably 1916 unless anyone has a good/affordable stroker crank) so if anyone has any parts they want to
sell let me know. I have a set of Westi's sweet stainless extractors but nothing else!
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rocknrob
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 06:50 PM |
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Joel?
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helbus
A.k.a.: Pete S
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 07:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Would look nice attached to a Subaru EJ22. Blow straight into the manifold!
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yeah i spose it would seeing as they need all the torque they can get
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Compared to??????
Any day I will take on 3.8 Comondore auto with monster tacho and shift light. They all see the tail lights of the bus.
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aintgotitmusthaveit
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| posted on February 20th, 2009 at 09:01 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Dasdubber
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matara
Al, I'm clueless on supercharging although I've been learning a far bit about turbo charging. Where does the supercharger sit in respect to the
carbs? Is it the equivalnet of blow through or suck through? I guess its all just like a turbo with the exception that you don't have to have any
plumbing from the headers.
Cheers
Steve
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Steve, although I still have research to do, aparently with carb/s it can be plumbed in pre (draw through) or post (blow through) supercharger. If
used in blow through configuration the carb/s throttle shafts etc reportedly need to be sealed as per turbo blow through setup.
Re. kits etc, probably getting ahead of ourselves as I am really keen to do/assist with the development on a vw aircooled engine first to iron out the
bugs/problems. Given Robert's ties with both Bullet and DAS Resto Haus, it is a good opportunity to explore its application with the humble little
volksies.
Cheers
Al
PS will now start looking to build a type I (probably 1916 unless anyone has a good/affordable stroker crank) so if anyone has any parts they want to
sell let me know. I have a set of Westi's sweet stainless extractors but nothing else!
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Not an expert but here is my 2cents
I am nearly finished Supercharging my 1916 for the 356. Will post picks and drawings of all parts I needed to make to get it to going once I know it
works.
I have used a roots type sc12 live the one steve1303 has used. Roots stypes are suited to suck through (carb upstream of supercharger). They have big
robust veins that can handle the charge hitting the lobes at high rpm. These I think were even set up as suck through on the MR2 and corollas. BUT
these centrigugal ones have much thinner impellor vaines. Everyone I have come across is up stream of the throttle body .
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kroozzn63
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| posted on February 21st, 2009 at 08:06 AM |
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cool thanx for that look foward too pics etc
show us your gates
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humpty
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| posted on February 21st, 2009 at 03:54 PM |
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I was wondering if someone would try this idea out....
I'm sure this will be yet another revolutionary Aussie idea that the whole world will jump on a copy as soon as you have proved the concept....
Good to go Al... Get on it mate...
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Joel
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| posted on February 21st, 2009 at 09:36 PM |
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id be surprised if the seals and bearings in these things would handle a fuel mix thro them long term. the compressor wheels would be fine tho
nealry everything since that terrible period known as the 80s has been EFI
its only us behind the times fools playing wiht old vws still tooling round with carbs
point im just making is that nearly all the force fed toys out there now are made with fuel injection in mind which is only feeding air so they work
well in blow thro not so well in draw thro but hopefully someone can get confirmation on that
aintgotitmusthaveit, the 4agze toyotas were draw thro setup but as theyre EFI engines they're only pumping air so no fuel is hitting the lobes
depends who u ask as to whether the SC12/14 can handle it
alot of the gemini crowd allegedly had dramas with the bearings failing, teflon coating lifting etc
as far as im concerned the fuel mix helps cool the intake charge. its failry minimal but every little bit helps
mine shows no signs of any of this but it has only done 3000kms since i built it but steves kombi fatso went for years untill the blower got a knock
in one spot and ill bet that was age and high mileage more than anything else
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johny rotten
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| posted on February 22nd, 2009 at 08:34 AM |
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if you run fuel through the blower it will die
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kroozzn63
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| posted on February 22nd, 2009 at 11:10 AM |
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thanks joel your words are very well explained and even i can understand ,well put..
show us your gates
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rocknrob
A.k.a.: Rob
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| posted on February 24th, 2009 at 10:52 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
Would look nice attached to a Subaru EJ22. Blow straight into the manifold!
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I so agree...am currently working on fitting a turbo to the EJ22 in my kombi...but i don't want to lose the low down torque...the grunt these things
have...if so will supercharge
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Stanley
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| posted on February 25th, 2009 at 07:51 AM |
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Very interesting the way the internal friction drive works. I've seen a similar system working in reverse on huge variable speed reduction gearboxes
that produced huge amounts of torque. Quite amazing the support they have from different manufacturers too.
Can't imagine that with the amount of R&D these guys would have done that they wouldn't have thought about the affects of fuel on seals and
bearings let alone upsetting the friction/traction drive.
This would be an interesting project AL, good luck mate. Just out of curiosity does anyone know the cost of these things. I imagine they're not
cheap.
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Camo
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| posted on February 25th, 2009 at 02:55 PM |
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In the bullet link it has the following prices:
Pricing:
C15 Range: $2790
C30 Range: $2990
C38 Range: $3190
Click here again for link to pricing :-)
Kevin
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Boostn
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| posted on March 5th, 2009 at 01:43 PM |
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Looks good BUT sorry to be a downer it's a waste of money!
A turbo will make more power faster at any rpm.
Also at those prices you could get a roller and have money for a manifold.
They do look good and I have seen some on fast v8's. It would look good and be different and drive like an aspirated car with a bit more zing. Keep
in mind that a supercharger still heats the intake temps like a turbo and also needs the extra fuel and ignition retard like a turbo.
Good luck and keep us posted !!
VOLLKOMMEN ART
nick@vollkommenart.com
Speed and Style
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 06:09 PM |
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Well guys its been quite some time since the idea of supercharging the VW engine with a Rotrex unit first came into my mind and now we have had the
opportunity to develop the setup on a customer's splitscreen kombi.
As Nick said, turbo would be much more bang for buck....but in this instance the owner of the bus wanted A) something different to what anyone else
has (as per the rest of the restoration), and B) wanted an engine that was smooth, quiet, reliable with a bit of extra horsepower when needed.
Basically this setup will be running the smallest of the Rotrex superchargers with custom machined crank and alternator pulleys (using 6PV serpentine
belt). Air con was also requested so to avoid running two belts, an engine 'faceplate' will be laser cut (mocked up here in mdf) to provide the
mounts for the AC compressor and supercharger.
Intercooler in above pic will be a custom water to air unit (Bullet uses Plazmaman units but will have a look who else is available to fabricate one
up)....the size above is the unit 'off the shelf' from Bullet. It will come down slightly and towards the supercharger a little. Clearance is pretty
tight for most things on vw engines including ensuring we can get to the dipstiick (will be modified soon) and heater hoses can still run where
required. Front 'faceplate' will be gusseted at the back and tie in with alternator stand and fuel pump mounting area.
Throttle body will be before the supercharger with inlet manifolds to be cut down and injector bungs welded in (with plenums welded on top). Longblock
is being built and parts provided by Leons Motors (who will also do the injection (most likely Link ECU at this stage) with crank triggered signal
used instead of dizzy.
Intercooler will be fed by Bosch water pump and PWR radiator (with thermo fan) mounted under the bus along with the engine oil cooler, supercharger
oil cooler (small) and air con condensor (two thermo fans) all force fed air by the removal of the front chassis cross section and a scoop
incorporated (plus a louvred belly pan to be fabricated) - air dams behind the coolers will force air through plus the negative pressure under the bus
whilst moving will help draw hot air out.
This is where we are up to today - Rob is finalising the design this week and will then have the 'faceplate' laser cut out of 10mm steel (plus
gussets etc)....and then pulleys machined. Heads and manifolds plus throttle body will arrive from Leons this week to complete the mockup process.
Slowly but surely we are getting there.
Engine will be 2275cc type I case, CB wedgeport heads but the rest of the internals I don't have the specs on right now (will check with
Andrew/Leon).
Cheers
Al
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 08:16 PM |
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Looking good..............although I don't think using the wedports is a good idea for a supercharged motor.I would look at using a more 'solid'
head like the eliminators....just my opinion though !
I hope the case is an aluminium one ?
.
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Craig S
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 09:07 PM |
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Mmmmm Supercharged and air con , sounds like my perfect VW. Please keep up the progress reports.
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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Dasdubber
A.k.a.: Alan Agyik
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| posted on May 11th, 2010 at 10:41 PM |
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Yeah Craig, aluminium case. I've left the long block decisions up to Leon's motors as they will be doing the break in and tuning so we are just in
control of the ancillaries.
Cheers for your comments though
Al
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on May 12th, 2010 at 07:03 AM |
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Nice work so far Alan,
should be a great project!
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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debiasi4
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| posted on May 12th, 2010 at 11:22 AM |
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looks good for a intercooler try frozenboost .com
adam
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