| [ Total Views: 1064 | Total Replies: 13 | Thread Id: 75185 ] |
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 Sometimeman
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 02:43 PM |
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Flat spot. 34 PICT
Hi and help. I have recently bought a '65 1300 with 1600 barrells and twin port heads..so far so good. It has a full Bosch distributor fitted.
However when i can get the thing to idle it has a very bad flat spot just after idle....With adjustment I can reduce the flat spot somewhat but then
it is very hard to start.. Also the stated 2 1/2 turns out for the volume screw seems about one turn too many for my motor.
Cheers Ian
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Old Hutcho
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 03:13 PM |
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Here is the cure.
http://www.airsupplyvw.co.uk/flubberdubbers/solexwith009.html
I have done it on my 1776 stocker with PICT 34/009 combo and it works well.
Old Hutcho.
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RISKYBUG
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 05:41 PM |
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main jet to small
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 05:54 PM |
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thats a good write up!
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Sometimeman
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 06:34 PM |
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Thanks for the quick replies. I will check the jetting. My motor now has a distributor with a vacuum connection so the information regarding the 009
is not applicable to me.
Cheers Ian
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 vw54
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 06:53 PM |
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each motr will b different variations on the turns OUT of the volume screw will b different as with ignition timing
get and electronic module to reduce this possible cause of the FLAT spot
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Joel
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| posted on March 8th, 2009 at 08:50 PM |
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theres no proper fix/cure, theres only bandaid coverups for 009-34pict3 flatspots
u cant make up for lack of advance at low revs
covering up by dumping extra fuel thro is pretty bad fix
Ian, its probably something stupid
first thing id be checking is that the accel pump squirter isnt blocked that would give all ur symptoms ur seeing
and make sure the diaphram in the vac advance is still operating ok ie. not punctured or weak and hose between it and the carb is ok
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DirkHedde
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 01:36 PM |
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there are plenty of adjustments you can make to your carb but also check your timing too as this can cause problems too i have found
joel im getting a little tired of your 34 pict and 009 whinge somebody needs to do that broken record picture for you its negative and inaccurate
advice that puts me off this website sometimes
sometimeman keep playing with it im sure youll get it right. grab a manual and have a read
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Sometimeman
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 02:03 PM |
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Thanks guys, You can be sure i not give up. Though some of you seem to think I have a 009 Distributor, this is not so. The Bosch electronic is
quite new and I have checked the hose etc. Someone suggested an air leak in the system so I will persevere. I do have an instruction sheet i got
off the web and it seems quite comprehensive though it does not allow for 'weird' things that may have happened previously
Cheers Ian
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Joel
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 03:16 PM |
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Ian by bosch electric do you mean you have electronic ignition fitted or one of those new bosch vac dissys?
may sound silly but valves that need adjust can often play games with the idle speed to
oh yeah dirk, bite me
if you want to be one of these internet parrots going round saying 009s are the greatest thing since sliced bread then go ahead but real world
exprience will soon teach you otherwise
as ive said before they have their place but its not on stock engines that need advance down low when under a load
if you want to follow 30year old writings by a stoned feral most of which has now been proven to be bad for the car then go ahead but muirs ideas have
been shot down in flames now by several experts so many times its not funny anymore
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Old Hutcho
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 06:47 PM |
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Sometimeman,
I apologise mate, I misread your post and thought you had a 009. It was my mistake.
Joel.
I am interested in those people who have "shot down the writings of a stoned feral" so many times. Can you quote a reference for me so I can make
my own mind up. All I can tell you is that this "fix" cured my flat spot immediately. I dont have any consumption issues. This blokes writings
make sense to me and until I see a better written one who makes better sense, I think I will stick with it. Over to you with the research brother.
Old Hutcho
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Joel
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 07:20 PM |
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hey Hutcho,
probably the most gospel to go by would be bob hoover
altho i disagree with a few of his theories on a few other things but his ideas are all pretty good tho
i dont know if his sermons are still floating around the interwebs but i have some of them on disc somewhere ill try and dig up theyre very well
written and informative
the 009 vs SVDA debate has been flogged to death for over a decade now theres never gonna be an answer that plzs everyone
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Joel
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| posted on March 9th, 2009 at 07:30 PM |
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Ian, apologies for your thread going OT but gotta keep the ppl happy.....
the reason this arguemt really bugs me was the garage i worked at used to do a fair bit of VW work and i had to deal with a few cars that had worn
stock dissys and the owners had replaced them with 009s cos they were cheap and easy to get then complained about the flat spot and expected us to fix
it
lets just say its left a bad taste
Vacuum-Advance vs.
Mechanical-Advance Distributors
by Robert S. Hoover
A vacuum advance distributor senses changes in the engine's LOAD -- and does so almost instantaneously. Mechanical advance distributors, which sense
only changes in rpm, are meant for special purpose applications, such as as drag racing or poorly designed multi-carburetor set-ups.... or moving a
loaded Type II with a 25hp engine.
If you try to use a purely mechanical advance distributor in your daily driver you will have to jack-up the output of the accelerator pump, since
providing a jolt of raw gas is the only way you can bump up the rpms, which is the only way you can get the advance to kick in. But before the revs
can build up you waste a lot of gas. This plays hell with your fuel economy and shortens your engine's useful life at the same time.
People who run mechanical advance distributors usually have no idea how well their Volkswagen can perform.
When you go back to a vacuum advance distributor you usually see a remarkable improvement in both performance and economy. The performance-change
being the typical perception of an engine that is now suddenly more responsive than before. The improvment in economy comes about because you're no
longer throwing away most of the accelerator pump's output each time you shift gears or pull away from a stop.
The fact John Muir.... and all the tits & ass VW magazines.... say the mechanical advance distributor is the best thing since canned beer is no
reason to assume this is true. Muir advocates any number of things that are incorrect, including many that are detrimental to your vehicle.
I've written about the vacuum vs mechanical distributor situation many times but most people still don't get it. Volkswagen -- and all other auto
makers -- use vacuum-advance (or vacuum/centrifugal) because for normal driving such distributors do a better job than a purely mechanical-advance
device.
Now look at what you've got: A dictated AFTER-TDC static-timing point on an engine whose optimum operating speed demands a firing point of about 30
degrees BEFORE-TDC... and inherent limitations in vacuum-advance distributors which prevent them from covering that range.
So you use a composite distributor, one having BOTH vacuum advance, which gives the required responsiveness, AND centrifugal advance, which gives you
the desired range.
The retard side of the canister was added to insure a positive back-down of the firing point when the throttle was closed. Otherwise, the firing point
would decay according to the speed of the engine (ie, under the control of the centrifugal-advance system). Even then, it was an interim solution
until they could get the bugs out of the fuel injection system. (Mexican bugs are fuel injected. Very nice, reliable system. Illegal in Ami-Rica, of
course.)
If you do not see the retard function, don't use it. On a dual chamber canister that means disconnecting the retard-signal line. (It will usually be
the lowest pick-off point on the carburetor.) You need to seal the lines to prevent anything getting into the canister or being sucked into the
manifold. And of course, re-time the thing.
If you have a single-canister distributor (or a dual-canister distributor with the retard side disabled), set your static timing at about 7.5 degrees
BEFORE TDC and drive on. Most vacuum-advance distributors will give you about twenty degrees total advance. Check it with a timing light by revving
the engine. Tweak accordingly but don't push it too far -- hot day, low-octane fuel, you'll get detonation even though everything is set to spec. I
run about 28 degrees total advance.
(In earlier messages to you and Rob I've not mentioned the initial static timing point because I assumed the principle was understood with regard to
emissions and the carburetor/distributor combination.)
If you don't have a good vacuum-advance distributor, go get one. Go to a junkyard and buy half a dozen of the things in beater condition. Remove the
vacuum canisters. If you can't find a good vacuum canister, go buy one. (Replacements run about $25, new, Bosch, here in southern California.) Throw
the distributors in a can of oil to soak over night, then dismantle them. Be careful to preserve the spacers and washers -- they're hard to find (I
often buy a new -009 just to get the spacers!) Match the best fitting shaft-to-housing and reassemble the distributor using a proper number of shims
and spacers to give minimum end-play. Go drive the thing.
If you want to make it last forever, or at least longer than the 70,000 or so it normally lasts, get rid of the points. Opening the points represents
as asymmetric load on the distributor. Opening the points is the major cause for wear on the shaft and bushings. So get rid of them. Use a Pertronix
unit. No load on the distributor shaft. Runs concentrically. Vastly reduces the wear-rate which is already pretty low because the distributor only
turns at one-half engine speed. (Don?t use an optically triggered unit. The Pertronix is magnetic. The Hall effect sensor, amplifier and SCR are
contained in the pick-up unit.)
Okay, so you're not a mechanic (you should be, if you want to own/operate an orphaned, antique vehicle). A new, vacuum advance distributor costs
about $90. Roland Welhelmy bought one a couple of weeks ago from the Old VW Company in Escondido and sent a note about it to the Type 2 mailing list.
(OVW = (760) 73-7587). Give them a call, see if they'll send you one. Ditto for the Pertronix unit, while you're at it. (It runs about $60.)
Regarding advance mechanisms: You can make a centrifugal system advance as far as you want and at whatever rate you want. Friction and loss of spring
tension is the only problem. But with a vacuum-advance system, the thing is only linear across a fairly narrow range, although marvelously responsive
within that range. Most cars use composite or combination systems -- a vacuum-advance to initiate acceleration and a mechanical-advance to continue
that advance to whatever limits -- and at whatever rate -- the engineers decided upon.
But one thing you CAN'T do is stick a purely mechanical system into a VW and expect it to be responsive to the throttle. First, you must bring about
a change in rpm, usually by feathering the throttle -- pumping a little more gas -- THEN the advance kicks in -- and will advance as far as you want
it to, depending on what you've done to the bob-weights and springs. This is perfect for the dragstrip, where you jack it up to three grand before
you even pop the clutch, and thereafter go flat-out through only two gears, at most. The 009 is great for that. Otherwise it's a piece of crap.
Personally, I think you should be driving a Toyota. Early air-cooled Volkswagens require about ten times the annual preventative maintenance of a
modern vehicle and it must be SKILLED maintenance. If you gotta pay someone to do it, your VW is going to cost you more than a luxury car. And if you
don't do the maintenance, you're going to have a crappy ride. And if you try to do it yourself and screw things up -- a Toyota seems like a good
idea to me.
- Bob Hoover
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Sometimeman
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| posted on March 12th, 2009 at 12:01 PM |
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Hi again. The article by Bob Hoover is very interesting and I completely agree with the idea of having a vacuum advance...and the factory likes the
idea as well.
I will persue this little problem after fixing a few oil leaks... they are making a mess wherever I stop...I will then check for air leaks and such
before i finish off the tuning...This will keep me off the streets for a little while i reckon.
Cheers Ian
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