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 annosL
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 06:55 PM |
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Timing?
Hi, I have a timing question re my L bug 1600 dual-port. I have re-built it and using advice from Air-cooled Tech and others have set timing,
adj.valves etc and it has started ok, idling adj. went fine as according to Tech notes. So it runs and idles fine but when I give it heaps it starts
missing and the timing seems to be up the creek. My question is regards the vacuum advance, would this be the culprit as when I suck on the adv. tube
it only moves a few mm. The dizzy has a number 114905205Z and is the stock single vacuum hose type, seems to be in good nick but I am far from an
expert. Can anyone see any obvious fault from these symtoms? I set it at TDC as I cannot find any reference anywhere to this particular dizzy, not on
the oldvolkshome website anyway. Any advice gratefully received!
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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 posted on May 12th, 2009 at 06:59 PM |
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I would advance it a bit more than TDC..
try 7 1/2 or 10 degrees...
I have a similar distributor here and it also only moves a few mms when sucked on...
maybe thats normal???
cheers
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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 vw54
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 07:03 PM |
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when you suck on the vac advance tube put yr toungue over the hole and see if the advance mechanism stays put which it should if it creeps
back then the diaphragm is stuffed
time for an electronic ignition module
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annosL
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 07:04 PM |
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Well that's good about the hose, I thought it might not be doing anything so I will try adv. it and try that. So will that bring the spark in a bit
later at higher revs?
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vw54
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 07:06 PM |
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set it at 10 deg at idle but check the sucking first
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annosL
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 07:07 PM |
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Just read your post vw54 re putting tongue over hose, no haven't done that so will try that too tomorrow. What brand/type module is the go?
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annosL
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| posted on May 12th, 2009 at 07:11 PM |
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I'll try that, set at 10 deg and see how it goes.
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annosL
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| posted on May 13th, 2009 at 10:44 PM |
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Well today I checked the diaphragm on the vacuum and it passed the suck and tongue test, held vacuum ok but after setting the timing 10 deg btdc it
still is not smooth at higher revs, idles ok but tramp it and it starts missing an a bit of black smoke comes out. Maybe the dizzy is crook? Would the
rotor be suspect too?
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on May 14th, 2009 at 01:00 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by annosL
Well today I checked the diaphragm on the vacuum and it passed the suck and tongue test, held vacuum ok but after setting the timing 10 deg btdc it
still is not smooth at higher revs, idles ok but tramp it and it starts missing an a bit of black smoke comes out. Maybe the dizzy is crook? Would the
rotor be suspect too?
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Maybe the only way to check the dizzy would be to replace it with another one...
do You have a timingLamp? so You can see how high revs are being attained... 28-30-32-33 degrees BTDC..
is the vacuum hose in good condition...?
what carburetor are You using..?
cheers
LEE
Distributor cars - rotors -points should be cleaned with WD40 and replaced at some time...
VW rotors have a resistor built into the top of the rotor
these can burn out... LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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annosL
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| posted on May 14th, 2009 at 12:22 PM |
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The carby is stock 34pict3 and the vacuum hose is new, leads plugs and points all new, I haven't got a spare dizzy except one from a 1500 single
port, would that do for a test? Would electronic ignition solve this or not? I will get a timing light today and do a test.
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Pete
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| posted on May 14th, 2009 at 08:23 PM |
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Yes the dizzy from the single port will work u need to make sure the drive locates correctly before u tighten the holding clamp, I have had a few
instances in the past where they idle fine but under high revs it misses and farts, under driving conditions its even worse..... it ended up being a
fouled spark plug! black smoke normally means unburnt fuel and if the plug is not causing correct ignition will casue fumes and slight backfiring. The
vacuum advance distributors can happily run without the vauum canister due to mechanical advance being inbuilt.may not be as quick in advance curve
but will still operate happily. Be intersted to find out what it is????? A quick change of the coil with a spare may be on the cards too?? At least
its a quick swap over!!
[size=4] pete - Custom VeeDub[/size]
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annosL
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| posted on May 18th, 2009 at 04:29 PM |
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Thanks Pete, an update: I replaced the coil, got hold of a timing light and re-timed rather than static, and this time it had improved heaps but still
not 100%, still slight missing on revving but a lot better. I am still suspicious of the dizzy and have ordered a new vacuum advance one so will wait
till that arrives and go through it all again. Hopefully will resolve it or end up with a motor which has lotsa new parts!
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vw54
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| posted on May 18th, 2009 at 05:44 PM |
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did u check the point gap this is most important 0.016 "
if it aint right then the rest is not going to help
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annosL
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| posted on May 18th, 2009 at 09:34 PM |
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I didn't apart from when I initially fitted the new points, so I guess I have a mission tomorow, will get back tomorrow after I have done this
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annosL
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| posted on May 19th, 2009 at 04:31 PM |
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Well points gap is fine, while I am waiting for new dizzy to turn up thought I would check carby again. I have a spare and have been using both to get
one good one: i.e. one body has tighter throttle shaft etc, anyway one thing I hadn't swapped was the main jet which I did and now there is a big
difference, on cold start itis good then when it warms up it seems to starve and stalls. One big difference is that on higher revs the missing it had
before isn't noticeable! Maybe my diagnosing is up the creek and the carby might be the problem, I could have sworn the advance was not working. How
can I check the size of main jet and what should a stock one be? I don't fancy buying another carby. There are so many interelated things to check,
Before I changed over main jets it idled fine but now it's erratic and won't idle no matter which way I turn the bypass screw. Maybe a previous
owner died in this bug and his ghost is having some fun!
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on May 19th, 2009 at 08:35 PM |
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If the accelerator pump is blocked or leaking, the engine will not want to rev...
it needs the extra fuel pumped in with the accelerator pump..
starving for fuel and flooding can both stop an engine...
You may have a fuel and not an electric problem...
either can be frustrating....
especially when you install the new dizzy and it still plays up
cheers
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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greedy53
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| posted on May 20th, 2009 at 03:52 PM |
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i had a friend who had no end of strief with the same thing you describe
i said have you cleaned the carby jets and galleries answe no so we took the carby off and unscrewed everything than using a compressor blew air into
all holes
and guess what a bit of rubber popped out must have come of the degraded rubber tube so all tubes were replaced they looked like the ones that it had
when leaving the factory looked but in side crap
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annosL
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| posted on May 20th, 2009 at 07:14 PM |
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Yep think a huge clean is in order and check accelerator pump circuit, again! I was reading a tech article about soldering up the hole in the throttle
butterfly-plate to increase vacuum at idle, apparently helps to match with 009 dizzy, has anyone done this and has it helped?
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annosL
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 03:08 PM |
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Timing?
Further update to this: I have thoroughly cleaned carby and filled the hole in the throttle butterfly plate (as per article in Aircooled-tech) and put
it back on and now I can get it to idle, not entirely perfect but not bad and it doesn't miss on accelereration, this is with the old dizzy so
that's good BUT (there's always a but!) when I was checking timing with the strobe, momentarily the timing would fluctuate and it would run rough
then regain it's composure and run smooth again. This is for only a second or two and only now and again, does this mean the dizzy is crook or
something more sinister? Another question: In the attached pic of the carb the accelerator pump adjuster gadget interferes slightly with the side of
the alternator, is carving a bit off the alternator the best solution? Thank you for your assistance so far I'm actually progressing with this.
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Joel
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 04:27 PM |
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thats a generator style carb
the alternator ones have the accel pump adjuster facing the other way
quick fix i use is use a shifter and gingerly bend the adjuster away from the alternator
and also shave about 4-5mm off the alternator in the interfernce zone
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alien8
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 05:23 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by annosL
Well points gap is fine, while I am waiting for new dizzy to turn up thought I would check carby again. I have a spare and have been using both to get
one good one: i.e. one body has tighter throttle shaft etc, anyway one thing I hadn't swapped was the main jet which I did and now there is a big
difference, on cold start itis good then when it warms up it seems to starve and stalls. One big difference is that on higher revs the missing it had
before isn't noticeable! Maybe my diagnosing is up the creek and the carby might be the problem, I could have sworn the advance was not working. How
can I check the size of main jet and what should a stock one be? I don't fancy buying another carby. There are so many interelated things to check,
Before I changed over main jets it idled fine but now it's erratic and won't idle no matter which way I turn the bypass screw. Maybe a previous
owner died in this bug and his ghost is having some fun!
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The size should be stamped on the jet. 127.5 for stock I think.
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alien8
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 05:33 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by annosL
Yep think a huge clean is in order and check accelerator pump circuit, again! I was reading a tech article about soldering up the hole in the throttle
butterfly-plate to increase vacuum at idle, apparently helps to match with 009 dizzy, has anyone done this and has it helped?
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I had a really bad flat spot with the 34/009 combo. I did this as a quick fix untill I can get the cash together for a Bosch vac dizzy. Worked really
well to my surprise.
Have you checked the manifold for leaks. Mine was doing a similar thing to yours. The flange where the carb bolts to was not straight. Its looked like
it had been bent at the front and back due to years of over tightening. I put two of the gaskets you get in those carb kits on with a bit of Permatex
and the problem disappeared.
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Thinker
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 05:54 PM |
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i would be looking for leaks on manifold or carb. it easy if you get some carby cleaner or even WD40 (abit messy) and spray it all over the carb and
manifold joints if the revs drop you are sucking the stuff in and it dont burn to well OR use some Aero Start ( Start you basted by Nulon) and if the
revs increase you have a leak. if you do have a leak it will effect timing with a vac dizzy and also you fuel air ratio
Good Luck
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DavoBuggy 1641
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 06:08 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
did u check the point gap this is most important 0.016 "
if it aint right then the rest is not going to help
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also make sure you clean the points surfaces with some carby cleaner or something. (from new)
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annosL
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 07:19 PM |
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Thanks Thinker and Davo, I did check the points and they spot on .016", not sure re leaks in the manifold, when I did the re-build I hummed and
haaard about changing the rubber joiner bits but used the old ones so they could be suspect. Check tomorow
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Joel
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 08:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by alien8
The size should be stamped on the jet. 127.5 for stock I think.
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u gotta be carefull with that brad, cos often they've been reamed out
i got a container of stock jets that are all bigger than what theyve been stamped
whenever u fit decent extractors to a type1 you need to fatten up the main jet a tiny bit, its cos of this alot of mechanics open them out abit
and also people do it to try and get rid of 009 flat spots aswell
the main jet in my 71 Sbug said 125 but it had been opened out to 135 when the PO had the 009 fitted
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alien8
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| posted on May 29th, 2009 at 10:04 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by alien8
The size should be stamped on the jet. 127.5 for stock I think.
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u gotta be carefull with that brad, cos often they've been reamed out
i got a container of stock jets that are all bigger than what theyve been stamped
whenever u fit decent extractors to a type1 you need to fatten up the main jet a tiny bit, its cos of this alot of mechanics open them out abit
and also people do it to try and get rid of 009 flat spots aswell
the main jet in my 71 Sbug said 125 but it had been opened out to 135 when the PO had the 009 fitted
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Yep, thats definitely something to watch Joel. When I was looking for a larger jet I pull one out of an old 34 body I had and the stamping had been
ground off. I bought a 130 as well which made no difference to the flat spot but this mystery jet did the trick. Holding it up to the light with the
130 beside it and it looks a tiny bit larger with the naked eye.
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annosL
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| posted on June 10th, 2009 at 01:46 AM |
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Another update: I did as thinker suggested and sprayed some aerostart around the manifold joints and carb. near the throttle shaft, seems no manifold
leaks but when I sprayed the throttle butterfly shaft especially on the right side where the accelerator pump adj. is there was an increase in revs, I
did it about ten times to make sure so the shaft is not as tight as it needs to be. As a quick fix I took the linkage and adjuster off and put an
o-ring (fat one) on the shaft and refitted the linkage an adjuster and re-timed and retuned carby and even just doing that makes it idle heaps better,
still fluctuating a little bit but definately improved. The o-ring appears to reduce the air getting sucked in there but it is amazing how small these
amounts are to affect idling, I think I need a better carby
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