| [ Total Views: 1688 | Total Replies: 25 | Thread Id: 8015 ] |
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 bugboymatt
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 07:16 AM |
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Fuel injection
Ok who's gone over to fuel injection ?
Just wondering if anyone does it here in oz !!
Any good or bad points with using it !!
Just thinking out loud gathering ideas at mo for next engine or maybe even current one and change out my 45's for some FI......
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 10:14 AM |
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I havent, but am planning on doing it in the next 18 months or so. What I am thinking of doing is getting a set of dual port manifold end castings
from CB in the US which already have the injector bosses machined in ($119 US). I'd then manufacture a custom ceter manifold to suit a decent
single throttle body, and the rest is basically electronics and fuel lines / pumps.
I think its definitely the way to go.
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pyr0
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 10:28 AM |
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neither have i doubt i will unless its a wrx engine lol and thats never going to happen as i like the dak-ing sound 2 much :P |
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Baja Wes
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 10:56 AM |
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I have gone to EFI, but not on a VW engine. I mean, for the price of EFI on a VW motor, it's cheaper to just put an EFI jap motor in there. But I
understand some people are stubborn and want to stick to the VW motor.
But let me explain to you what factory jap EFI does, that your aftermarket affordable VW EFI probably won't do.
* Sequential multipoint fuel injection. My motor monitors the crank angle and the camshaft angle. Normally it uses the cam angle to tell which
cylinder is about to take air, and fires it's individual injector as the valve is open. If the cam angle sensor dies, then it goes into a batch
firing mode, where it doesn't know which cylinder is about to take air, so it fires all the injectors together (ie batch). The diagnostics on the
computer even tell you that the cam sensor has died. On a VW motor you do not have a cam position sensor, so you are stuck in batch firing mode.
Sequential is much smoother and more efficient. You could possibly get a fancy distributor which tells the ECU cam position, but it'd be
expensive.
* VRIS - variable resonance intake systems. My V6 has a variable resonance intake. Basically the computer varies the length of the intake by opening
and closing two butterflys. There are 4 different intake lengths that can be achieved. Intake length effects intake resonance, which effects cylinder
filling. A certain length is only good for a certain RPM range. My V6 changes the intake length through the rev range to increase cylinder filling.
Having accidentally disconnected it before, I can say it makes a noticeable difference.
* factory knock sensor - Althought many aftermarket ECU's support this feature, budget systems don't. The knock sensor will detect if the
engine is knocking, and retard the timing to compensate.
* factory closed loop operation - A factory ECU will monitor the engines oxygen sensor(s) (my V6 has an oxy sensor for each bank of the V6) to detect
whether the engine is running rich or lean, and compensate by adjusting the mixture. Cheaper aftermarket ECU's, and especially cheap installs, do
not utilise this feature.
* Idle air control valves - to adjust and maintain a preset idle speed. A factory ECU will compensate for accessories such as air con (mine also steps
the idle up slightly just before a thermo fan comes on)
* injector cut when coasting - The ECU will monitor clutch, gear and throttle position to determine if the car is coasting down hill. It will then cut
the injectors above a certain rpm (on closed throttle) to conserve fuel and prevent popping through the exhaust.
I could keep going, but I mainly wanted you to get some idea of what real EFI does, and how crude most EFI systems people put on VW's are. Most
EFI system's for VW's on the market run like a factory ECU in limp home mode. I just don't think they are worth the money.
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Jeza
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 04:17 PM |
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Doug started a thread the same as this a while ago and Wes made effectively the same comments.
It all depends what you actually want. I can assume that power/ reliability was the end result that Wes was after. You may be after the challenge of
actually engineering a VW motor to EFI, if so great.
I agree with Doug and am aiming to "manufacture" something for myself, from the point of view that even if it isn't the most effecient
FI system it will make a lot more sense to me than a set of carbs, and stay in tune.
The last thread is worth a read.
Good luck
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 05:53 PM |
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I like all your points wes makes lots of sense..............
I'll have a look for the old thread
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
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koolkarmakombi
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 06:06 PM |
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wanna post a link of the old thread when you find it? :beer:beer:beer |
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1303Steve
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| posted on July 1st, 2003 at 11:14 PM |
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Hi
Leigh, who is busy renovating his house at the moment has fitted EFI to his bug using Berg manifolds, a WBX plenum and custom pipes in between, see
photo. You can buy weld on injector bosses from Injection Perfection in Bankstown to save bringing in manifold ends.
1302Steve
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1303Steve
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| posted on July 2nd, 2003 at 12:16 AM |
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Hi
This is the page on the Injection Perfection website with the weld on injector bosses. http://www.injectionperfection.com.au/html/default_injector_mounts.html
What brand system were you going to use?
1302Steve
[Edited on 1-7-2003 by 1302Steve]
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Jeza
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| posted on July 2nd, 2003 at 06:24 AM |
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That's really valuable info, cheers for that Steve.
Those injector mounts would save a lot of mucking around. And it's always good to see someones successful instal... And that ones really tidy
And the last FI thread link too
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5845
Jeremy
......random gibberish for today.......
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 2nd, 2003 at 07:22 AM |
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I remember chatting to leigh at the nationals quickly...... As I have Hamo's old 68 bug !!
Just looking for info first and deciding if it's worth doing !!! Thanks for the info will have a good read. cheers for the other link
too..........
:bounce
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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1303Steve
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| posted on July 2nd, 2003 at 10:01 PM |
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Hi
It would be good to see smoke coming from under the guards of the Hamo machine again, I think Hamo is going to Nambucca.
If you want to have a talk to Leigh and i about EFI catch us at nambucca.
1302Steve
[Edited on 2-7-2003 by 1302Steve]
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 2nd, 2003 at 10:10 PM |
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Cheers Steve I'll catch up with ya at valla for sure.
Not sure if taking the bug yet as misses wants to us to go in the kombi !!!
Found this for anyone else interested CB Performance FI
http://www.cbperformance.com/ultracomp.asp
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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Baja Wes
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| posted on July 3rd, 2003 at 08:37 AM |
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here's a quote from the CB site "CFI is a simplified, easy to understand electronic injection system. Most of the bells, whistles, and
complications normally attached to electronic fuel injection have been eliminated from this new CFI package. "
Now just remember this statement cuts both ways. The kit may be simple and easy to set-up, but it is very very basic EFI. In fact I would call it
electronic carbies rather than EFI
The kit obviously batch fires. So it is squirting fuel down the inlet even when that cylinders valve is closed. But the biggest difference between
that kit and a real EFI system is that kit doesn't attempt to measure the air flow. Real EFI measures the air flow into the engine using some
kind of MAP or VAF sensor. It then monitors that, the TPS, the rpm, the inlet air temp and the engine temp in order to figure out exactly how much
fuel to squirt in there.
The CFI kit just guesses how much fuel is required based on throttle position and rpm, not a very accurate way to do it. Even then you have to turn
the amount of fuel by turning a knob on the dash (real accurate). Even a carb is more precise than that, as it depends on throttle position, manifold
vacuum and many fine precision jets. The only good thing about the CFI kit is that it will run on any angle and over rough (well until the lack of a
surge tank causes problems) which is good for offroading.
If your going to do an EFI install, do it properly. A friends brother used to run Haltech on his beetle and it was much better than the CB kit, but
still needed some inprovement.
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Doug Sweetman
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| posted on July 3rd, 2003 at 10:31 AM |
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Youre absolutely right on that one. ITs dissappointing to see the yanks market technology that is very similar (although a more modern computer) to
the old L-Jet systems that VW used eons ago.
I guess it stems from the fact that they dont seem to have the wealth of aftermarket computers that we do in Australia.
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SKEWtYpe3
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| posted on July 3rd, 2003 at 05:38 PM |
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I just got told by a big VW name here that used to drag and is in the process of making a new drag beetle. I was told that here is Auss that we have
the BEST EFI tech and we are far advanced compared tot the US market. There is a beetle in the states running an EFI kit made in the melbourne eastern
suburbs. they are slowely getting the efi idea in the states but there is even a NEW BEETLE dragster running on a carb set-up !
If u can afford it go efi and u still get the dak dak sound ..
ill eventually efi probably too, on my notch..
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 3rd, 2003 at 07:45 PM |
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BIG VW NAME !!!
I don't know that much about drag racing down here yet still learning !!! Whos who.
Any hints ya could give !! they running EFI !!!
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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Che Castro
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| posted on July 3rd, 2003 at 08:56 PM |
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yeah, they yanks seem to loove carbs, especially when mixed with turbos, particularly 4 barrel Holleys draw thru ...
yeh we are lucky to have lots of EFI companies in australia.
Jon
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amazer
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| posted on July 4th, 2003 at 11:46 AM |
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I am running Haltech injection. check out this link. http://www.haltech.com.au/Products/ECUs/ecus.html
My system is an older E6, it controls fuel and ignition. Has fuel cutoff on decell + idle speed control although I am not using it. Its not sequential
and doesnt have closed loop.
The new ones have everything a factory ECU has. You dont even have to tune some of them, they learn as they go.
I got no idea what they cost. You probably can buy a front cut of any jap car for about the same price. I like to keep my car as VW as possible.
Chris.... kombi pilot, oval dreamer... finisher #26971 2005 city to surf
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 4th, 2003 at 12:11 PM |
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Yeah been looking at thre prices !!!
Seen the price of half cuts too !!!
Makes you think !!!!!!
All the advantages of upto date technology ! Still could be a flat 4 just with a subaru name !!!
Who knows might leave as is........
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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NigeType3
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| posted on July 4th, 2003 at 12:44 PM |
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Whats the system Custom Bugs & Busses use. They use part of the std type 3 injection system with up-grade ECU which is programable I think. Is
this system still of the dinosor era?
Just would like to know Nige
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KruizinKombi
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| posted on July 5th, 2003 at 06:47 PM |
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I have the dinosaur L-Jetronic on my now-stationary 2L kombi. Even though I agree with everything Wes and others have said, the old injection systems
still crap all over carbies, in my opinion.
When I first bought my 1800 kombi the motor was pretty fresh, but the 2L could still give it a flogging with half compression on two cylinders! :thumb
Kruizin Kol
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1303Steve
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| posted on July 5th, 2003 at 09:02 PM |
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Hi
The EFI kombi motors seem to do higher Ks than carby motors, it would be because they get correct fuel all the time. My brother had a 1976 EFI 2 litre
kombi in the 80s, it did about 395,000 then i pulled it apart and gave it a look over, nocked up the comp and it did another 200,000 before he sold it
and it was still going strong.
1302Steve
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 5th, 2003 at 09:33 PM |
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Still wonder then if a primative old efi set up would be worth while !
car only used now on weekends as got a company heap of metal to drive round in rest of time.........
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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bugboymatt
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| posted on July 5th, 2003 at 09:35 PM |
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was reading helbugs adventures with efi on the clubvw website ! sounds like they had fun.......
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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bugboymatt
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| posted on August 4th, 2003 at 07:09 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by NigeType3
Whats the system Custom Bugs & Busses use. They use part of the std type 3 injection system with up-grade ECU which is programable I think. Is
this system still of the dinosor era?
Just would like to know Nige
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Anymore info on this ?
Still toying with ideas !!
What kinda price is a suby front cut ?
Da Time For The Aircooled Revolution Is Upon US.
Brothers & Sisters Lets Hit The Streets, Roll As One. And Feel The Power Of The Aircooled Storm.
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Midlife crisis
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 posted on August 4th, 2003 at 08:30 AM |
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EFI
Hi Guys
A few (20) years ago i had A type3 TLE and we thought the EFI was great it had awsome power and economy reliability
but that was then now that system is very old . The new systems offer a lot more adjustablity. Wonder if you could use the old plumming with Modern
injectors and computer?
Marc
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kombiluva
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| posted on August 4th, 2003 at 09:35 AM |
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New with Old
Midlife,
I have a 2L 1978 Kombi with all the original FI plumbing with a HALTECH computer to do the injection...a great set up as the motor has a big cam and
had some head work! Works well, looks original from the factory, easy to install and easy to get parts.
The last thing you want to do is start fabrication on something that is expensive anyhow.....(But worth every cent!)
See Ya,
Kombiluva
PS. Have just bored out my Throttle body and it should flow another 10-18% better then the original 2L 1982 Kombi Throttle body, will keep everyone
posted on the results!!!!! |
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