| [ Total Views: 2150 | Total Replies: 38 | Thread Id: 804 ] |
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 vanderaj
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| posted on September 24th, 2002 at 01:52 PM |
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Safety review aims to take bite out of bullbars
The actual press release and the new standard can be found here:
http://www.standards.com.au/STANDARDS/NEWSROOM/NEWS%20RELEASE/2002-09-23/2002-09-23.HTM
ABC story from:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/2002/09/item20020924110212_1.htm
The design of car bullbars across the nation is set to change under new guidelines developed by Standards Australia.
The guidelines have been prepared in conjunction with industry and community groups, with manufacturers agreeing to put new bullbars through simulated
accident testing in order to meet the criteria.
Standards Australia spokesman Tom Godfrey says the new safety standard, which came into effect yesterday, was drafted in response to growing concern
about the danger bullbars pose to pedestrians.
"You'll actually see the standard outlines that bullbars need to be bent back and they cannot have any protruding objects, say like fishing
rod holders or otherwise, so the actual bullbar design themselves is being revolutionised," Mr Godfrey said.
"You might also see some developments there with new materials that had not otherwise been considered by the industry at this stage."
[Edited on 24-9-2002 by vanderaj]
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 Grey 57
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| posted on September 24th, 2002 at 07:43 PM |
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Great news, can't remember the last time time I saw a stray bull or kangaroo wandering around the streets of Melbourne.
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 24th, 2002 at 11:38 PM |
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Thats a typical smart arse arguement that people use all the time. "YOU DONT NEED A BULL BAR IN THE CITY " But I think they should get
there head out of there arse. I live in Melbourne and I drive a Land cruiser with a Bull Bar. I hit a 6 foot Red Roo in the Northern Teritory at 110
kms/h and I drove home with nothing more than a broken spot light cover and a bent number plate. I have no doubt the car would of been wrecked without
the Bar and stuffed my Holiday. So what am I supposed to do take the Bull bar and Winch off untill I go on Holidays again. That would be a pain since
I drive to Canberra at least 6 times a year, and I see lot's of Roo's on the way.
ALSO I live in Croydon and I have seen Roo's less than 5 minutes drive from here.
So nobody is going to tell me what I do and dont need to protect my car.
If you don't like what I have written bring it up with me in Person. |
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helbus
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| posted on September 24th, 2002 at 11:56 PM |
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I certainly feel safer in the Kombi with the bull bar. It gives some 'spread' for any impact and transfers some of that to the chassis
rails.
There was a post a while ago of a Splittie hit in the front in which a dubber was hurt faily badly. From the pics I could see the front had come away
from the rails. A bull bar woul have definitely helped to some degree.
I do understand the bus would not have looked the same with it, bullbars are more of a bay kombi thing.
I think the round loop style bullbar on a kombi could not possibly hurt more than a Kingswood?
Peter
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 12:58 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Flying VW
Thats a typical smart arse arguement that people use all the time. "YOU DONT NEED A BULL BAR IN THE CITY " But I think they should get
there head out of there arse. I live in Melbourne and I drive a Land cruiser with a Bull Bar.
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Just be glad that the safety committee that recommended they be outright made illegal wasn't taken up. I'm actually bitterly disappointed.
However, I am looking forward to seeing less stupidly aggressive bull bars made out of non-metal componentry with fewer bits to skewer pedestrians
with. Also, under the new scheme, your winch would only be allowed to be fitted when you're actually using it as the primary aim of the new
standard is to reduce pedestrian deaths (this, btw, is the current law in NSW).
Over 90% of all truck style 4wd's* are never taken off road. You are in the distinct minority of 4wd owners who has taken their cars to places
where mobile road hazards are common. However, how often are you in the NT?
When pedestrian deaths occur mostly in the city, and nearly all 4wd's are there, I think it's sensible that precautions are taken to reduce
the impact of offensive weaponry fitted to cars.
* I have no problems with Audi or Subaru 4wd's as they increase safety, unlike their truck counterparts
[Edited on 28-9-2002 by vanderaj]
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Spook
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 01:47 AM |
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A few points
1) I agree that bullbars have no place in the city, BUT I DON"T COME FROM THE CITY. With the current drought, the roos are on the move. Last time
I went down the New England highway, it was dead set stained red, with carcasses everywhere.
If you don't have a bar on that road- stay close to the back of someone who does.
2) Like all statistics, you only get half the story. The number of pedestrians killed or injured may well be correct. But they don't tell you how
often the pedestrian was in the wrong.
As for "nearly all 4wds" being in the city, I think you should travel more often. Where I've just come from, every 2nd person owns at
least one 4wd, & they all have very substantial, & very nessecary bull bars.
[Edited on 24-9-2002 by Spook]
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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rustybug
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:32 AM |
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The problem is not the purpous of the bull bar but the material it is made of!...Big steel aggressive bull bars should be outlawed i believe, and only
plastic bull bars allowed! if have seen some of these new bull bars and how they are EVEN MORE affective on stopping animals you would have to agree
it is the way to go....pedestrian freindly too... so why dont YOU pull your head out of your own arse and stop being such a redneck!
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:47 AM |
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Firstly Flying VW - apologies for the throw-away line on 4wds. It was a poor generalisation and in no way was it aimed at geniue off roaders like
yourself.
However, on bull bars, I speak from my own experience living in Melbournes bayside suburbs were the vast majority of bull bar equiped 4wd's
rarely travel out side of the city. I have seen first hand the damage poorly designed attachements do to other vehicles (my own included) and injury
to a good freind who tore her face open on a sharp attachement on a bull bar attached to a parked 4wd.
Spook , I dont think it matters if the pedestrian is in the wrong or not. People make mistakes , its whether you survive that mistake that matters.
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Che Castro
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 10:04 AM |
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well i think that redesigning bullbars to be more pedestrian friendly is definitely a great thing. Sure some of you 4wd owners may actually travel
where there are actually hazards like roos and stuff, there is nothing wrong with bullbars. its just what u value more, damage to your headlights or
someone's life. It doesn't matter if it is the pedestrians fault or not, that is no reason to end someone's life.
It is discomforting to see the older style "truck" bullbars compared with more modern bullbars like on a Forrester or RAV4, this as well as
the greatly reduced handling and braking of a 4wd (compared to a normal car) can be quite deadly.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Che Castro]
Jon
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Herbie Down Under
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 04:48 PM |
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Some of you guys are realy giving Bull bars a bad rap. Yes there are people that use them around the city and yes some use them to enhance the look
of their cars but they do save lives as well.
I have seen first hand what damage and danger is caused when striking an animal at night which occurs for often then day time. A friend I was
following in a beetle hit a roo at 60kmH. The damage was incredible when we saw it the next day. If she was doing 100kph of MORE it would have
destroyed the car and probably her with it. Now I know you can't fit bull bars to beetles but even a 4WD without a bull bar would have sustained
heavy damge from hitting the roo. And when you hit objects on the road things tend to get dangerous and could end up in a major accident and kill the
driver and pasengers.
Also I was in a small hatch back that hit a cow on a road at 80kph. We hit it with the right hand side of the car which sent us into the embankment.
If there were any trees close by that night I would not be here typing this message. Once again if a bull bar could have been fitted to this vehical
we could have ended up still on the road and not in the ditch. 4WD are just big cars that sit higher and if you do alot of country driving a bull bar
is the best thing to have next to a spare wheel. With out a bull bar they are just normal cars that are sitting higher and will act like a normal
sedan in an accident.
If you have never driven or had any experiance in 4WD you should look into all aspects of this argument before posting.
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Spook
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 05:24 PM |
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It makes a hell of a difference if the pedestrian is in the wrong. The entire arguement is based on numbers, & numbers can lie if you don't
have both sets, & believe me, there IS 2 sets.
Aside from that you are not going to convince me that getting rid of the bullbars will end pedestrian deaths.
There was a woman killed in Newcastle just before xmas by a kombi doing 50kph.This kombi did not have a bar but, at the end of the day the woman was
hit by a sheer metal plate doing 50.
What's the difference?
The other problem with the arguement is, that most of the people making both the noise & the decisions, have never driven on a country road at
night. Most have never seen a roo cross the road at dusk, much less a stock crossing.
They work in 6x6 cubicles & live in suburbia, & wouldn't know the real world if it bit them on the date.
The plastic ones are nudge bars, nothing more. They may slow a small wallaby at 60.They won't entertain a grey roo at 110 & certainly not a
cow.
If you damage your headlight your very fortunate. If however you damage your radiator, which is more common, again to use the New England highway,
it's 56km between Singleton & Muswellbrook.
That's a nice little walk because someone in suburbia felt threatened.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 06:00 PM |
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To Grey 57
Sorry about the Agro, I just wanted to get the other side of the arguement across. I appreciate what you said about the the Bay side 4wds. I too have
seen the the big land Rovers and Bull bars in Brighton, that dont go any further than South Land Shopping Centre. But there are all sorts of people
and I cant see why we should be under the Toorak Tractor banner.
What a tin of worm's We have opened I've been given a safety lecture by somebody who does 160 k/p/h with my friend's in his car and
Ive been called a Red neck by a beginner who by the sound of it holds his car together with rust and Bog.
I suppose if these people wanted to travel around Australia they would do it on a Plane while they read a book and miss what Australia is really
about. |
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jakriz
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 07:09 PM |
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bullbar bullseye
I've been racing mountain bikes for 11 years now & do a fair few k's on the road each week, normally around 280k per week training on a
road bike. I've been hit several times over the years, twice were 4wd with bull bars, they each told the police that they couldn't see down
there bonnet over there bull bar that far to even know I was there.
U can imagine what i think if them
regards
Jak |
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 07:10 PM |
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Spook and flyingvw - you are rare. You have 4wd's, live near or in the country and regularly travel roads that require additional protection from
roos and other livestock.
What I have problems with are the people who live in the city, buy "nudge" bars (or usually much worse) and huge trailer hitches (leaving
them permanently in place) to cover up for their terrible parking skills (see the back of my turbo beetle for proof of this) and have all the offroad
accessories you guys would die for when their primary (>99%) use of the car is simply to do 10 km a day between Brighton and a city carpark.
I own two small VW's as these suit 99% of my daily driving requirements. When I was last at Cairns, I hired a 4wd to go offroading. I have a
pretty good chance of going to Darwin for a job soon. I'll go to Kakadu and I'll hire a 4wd for that too. Right car for the right
conditions. There is no reason for me (the average city dweller) to own a 4wd when you can hire a new one for the 1% of the time that I need it. I
have a friend who has a rather large yacht and tows it frequently, but they still only have a Falcon for that.
Anyway, flyingvw, my next post will contain a physics lesson so you will know that if cow+car occurred using the conditions you described, the car
will always be in the ditch, not on the road, regardless of bullbar or not.
Andrew
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 07:21 PM |
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Put Your glasses back on.
I think you will find that Herbie wrote that. |
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Spook
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 07:26 PM |
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When I go up home next week I'll tell the townsfolk up there that you think they are "rare". However, I doubt their reaction will be
fit for publication.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 08:14 PM |
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Warning! actual facts in link
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/fe3fa39a5bf5aa5aca256b350010b3fd!OpenDocument
1% of the Australian land mass contains 84% of the Australian population, which neatly fits in with the graph at the bottom of the page, describing
12% of the population as rural. Okay, that's fine.
According to VFACTS August 2002, nearly 50% of new car sales are "Light truck" (comprises ATW Compact, ATW Medium, ATW Large, Pickup/Cab
4x4, vans (not many), and buses (even less) and 2.5 tonne trucks (even less sales than buses). Take out the obvious commercial 2wd vehicles, and
you're looking at maybe 40% of the total car population in for 2002 being 4wd's, growing at an 18.8% annual growth rate. Although alarming
as prices for petrol go through the roof, we're still in the realm of fact here.
From my casual inspection of these monsters in the car parks and on the road, I estimate that probably 75% or more have bull bars of some sort fitted.
So we have 84% of the population in the cities, and 40% of all new cars are 4wd's, so ~30% of all new cars are more lethal than they should be to
the pedestrians who also use the roads around here.
Fantastic fashion statement this society has going on.
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Che Castro
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 08:38 PM |
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well i'm glad that we aren't living in America where those massive light truck based SUV's are rife. not only are they ugly they
handle like bricks, stop like bricks, kill any smaller vehicle they collide with and have massive blind spots.
good thing that they haven't really caught on here, most of the stuff that sells here are soft roaders
Jon
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 08:51 PM |
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Since you are so concerned about saving lifes. What about the endangered Species from our natural wild life that Cats kill every year.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Flying VW] |
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Herbie Down Under
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:01 PM |
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I can see this isn't going to end in a good way. This debate will never die as we can see so lets call it quits. We all agree on one ting here
and that is people who buy bull bars on 4wd just for city use should be questioned why they have a bull bar. And I tink thats what the topic started
as. Next thing we wil be arguing about is that tow bars should be removed when not in use! 
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Herbie Down Under]
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:09 PM |
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Good idea Herbie.
I have a life to get on with. |
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Grey 57
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:11 PM |
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To Flying VW - you are so right about opening a can of worms. One little sentence eh!!.
I agree with spook that its a city only problem. More pedestrians and more vehicles and numbers growing all the time. And your right its not just
4WD's
As a sales rep, 10yrs ago, I travelled all over country Vic & SA. Much of this was early evening or morning and you would always see the carnage
from the night before. There were plenty of times when I wished I had a bit more steel on the front of the Commodore. Thankfully the worst never
happened.
Any way I suppose the good news is that the manufacturers are designing bars that will be safer and still do the job required by offroaders out the
bush.
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:27 PM |
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Physics lesson
A quick note to a previous post. If you regularly travel in the bush and have a regular chance of high probability animal strike that may disable your
car, you'd be silly not to carry an EPIRB, CB radio, or other communications device that will make the distance between the towns. Bull bars are
not magic bullets that allow you to get out the car, drag the carcass off and drive away every single time.
Anyway, on the reasons why steel doesn't work in crash. For maximum survivability, you want to spread out the energy of a strike over time and
distance. This is easily proven:
Say you strike a cow which weighs 650 kg at 22 m/s (80 km/h). The time it takes for the cow to make it from the front of the car to the cabin is the
deciding factor about whether you'll live or die. In addition, the human factors in the cabin have a great deal to do... for example are there
soft rubbers, no hard edges, seatbelts with pretensioners, airbags, side airbags, deformable steering column, to better survive a crash.
The distance is approximately 1 meter, so you have 1/22nd of a second to decelerate the rapidly accelerating cow + rapidly decelerating car to a
survivable speed and disappate the kinetic energy. Say you have a small hatch which weighs 1000 kg, the kinetic energy of the car before striking the
cow is 246913.5802 Joules. A non-deformable steel bull bar attached to the ladder frame chassis (1890's technology) has nowhere to go and
doesn't participate in energy disappation - the entire car chassis does, causing even faster deceleration than if there was no bullbar. An
elastic collision with soft metal or even better, some form of foam filled bumper arrangement with suspension riders will take a lot of the energy out
before the body starts to deform. This is how the New Beetle does not suffer at all ($0 damage caused, no paint chipping, nothing) when backed into
poles and so forth:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9804/27/wheels.beetle.crash/beetle.20.mov
If the deceleration of the cow + car is above survivability G's in the cabin, then you're dead. Bullbars will often reduce the outward
damage to the car, but do nothing to reduce occupant mortality.
Warning: facts in URL
http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/pdf/bull-bars.pdf
Direct quote:
"There is no clear evidence that bull bars reduce injuries to occupants of bull barequipped vehicles. Analysis from first principles suggests
that bull bars would not offer significant protection in most instances, though there may be some advantage to front seat occupants of forward control
vehicles, by reducing the likelihood of intrusion into the cabin space. On the basis of broad assumptions concerning rural fitment rates and crash
involvement, it is estimated that only a small number of fatal road crashes are forestalled by bull bars in animal strikes (up to nine per year). This
estimate does not include lives that may be saved by preventing stranding of vehicle occupants in remote areas."
With at least 12% of all pedestrian deaths being directly associated with bull bars, the sums simply don't add up.
Andrew
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vanderaj
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Flying VW
Since you are so concerned about saving lifes. What about the endangered Species from our natural wild life that Cats kill every year.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Flying VW]
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Man, we are getting argumentative tonight, eh? As others have agreed to let this thread go, let's just leave it here.
Andrew
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Herbie Down Under
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:41 PM |
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Can we just delete this shit as it has NOTHIING to do wit VWs at all.
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 09:48 PM |
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HERE IS A REAL LIFE FACT.
I was following this Nissan near Kings Canon in the N.T
We were doing 120 k/p/h before it hit a wild Brumby.
The car was still drivable and nobody was hurt.
But the Horse did die.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Flying VW] |
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Bugged Again
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 11:09 PM |
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many years ago drove to ayres rock, 10 day trip, not much time so it was very express. the first night we had to get to longreach but 60ks out of
blackall we encountered the elusive roo.
the number plate on the car didn't help but it nearly ended our holiday among other things.
the townsfolk thought we were crazy driving after dusk and in retrospect we were, but we were young dumb and full of .....
So isn't the solution simple until someone comes up with the idea of storing the bullbar on the roof until you need it. Don't drive at
night and you wont hit a roo or emu or black cow.
i know i wouldn't like to have a head on with a bullbar, there wouldn't be much left of the beetle.
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Flying VW
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| posted on September 25th, 2002 at 10:02 PM |
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I dont know how this got above the green car picture.
But I wanted to say how funny the number plate is on the green car.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Flying VW] |
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SKEWtYpe3
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Registered: August 26th, 2002
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| posted on September 26th, 2002 at 01:44 AM |
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the re-design is to reduce raod tolls - YES
they have re-designed them so the person being hit is scooped up on top of the car and not under - YES
you hit something and damage the car in the middle of nowhere and its underivable, you should have insurance and full roadside assisstance - YES
everyone is happy - YES
why hasnt anyone made an ultra high frequency unit to sit on the outside of 4wd's to ward of animals ?????????????
does the old lady up the raod in the 4wd still scare me- YES !!!
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Spook
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Driving the 64 wheeler
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| posted on September 26th, 2002 at 03:27 AM |
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You can use all the numbers you want, all it will prove is, your an ignorant city dweller with no concept of the world outside your office.
The world outside the city limits DOES HAVE indiginous furry creatures that jump in front of your car.
Skewy, THE LAST THING YOU WANT IS ONE OF THESE SCOOPED UP TO YOUR BONNET.
An ADR will not differentiate between city & country.
So these plebs will pass a law that stops their car getting scratched in Melbourne, but risk the the lives of those who don't live in the city.
But then, according to Andrew's numbers, there isn't many of them anyway.
Well my friends are gone & my hair is grey, I ache in the places where I used to play.
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