| [ Total Views: 3237 | Total Replies: 34 | Thread Id: 81738 ] |
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 coletrickle
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| posted on January 31st, 2010 at 10:16 PM |
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engine damage
Today damo and myself pulled my 2332 down.It had done 9760 miles and i only pulled it out after i heard a little noise.It turned out it had broken 2
of the outer valvespings no 1 intake and no 2 exhaust.The bottom end looked like new all the bearings are in exellent shape unfortunatley 7 of the 8
lifters have pitted real bad,the cam lobes are in good shape?I'm a bit dissapointed with the failures but it's not a real big deal all the important
bits are ok seems strange the valve springs breaking anybody thad issues with valve springs breaking they are from a well known company lifters the
same,thats been around a long time it's not empi.
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 matberry
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| posted on January 31st, 2010 at 10:51 PM |
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Oh man!!! Lifters too!
They were running as good as any on last inspection before your car. What oil have you been running since....Brad Penn I think which is what I used to
run.....Hmmmm
Speak soon.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 1st, 2010 at 05:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by coletrickle
Today damo and myself pulled my 2332 down.It had done 9760 miles and i only pulled it out after i heard a little noise.It turned out it had broken 2
of the outer valvespings no 1 intake and no 2 exhaust.The bottom end looked like new all the bearings are in exellent shape unfortunatley 7 of the 8
lifters have pitted real bad,the cam lobes are in good shape?I'm a bit dissapointed with the failures but it's not a real big deal all the important
bits are ok seems strange the valve springs breaking anybody thad issues with valve springs breaking they are from a well known company lifters the
same,thats been around a long time it's not empi.
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What a bummer......I hope the "foreign" matter in the oil hasn't wreck anything else 
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humpty
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| posted on February 2nd, 2010 at 08:20 PM |
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Brad Penn causing problems?
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Super1302
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 06:37 PM |
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multiple answers here, poor oil lubrication, old cam with new lifters, viccy versa. wrong spring pressures for application
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matberry
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 07:34 PM |
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Seeing Col's all quiet here, I'll answer. No to all above....
New cam- Engle
New lifters- Sca
Blue printed full flow oiling
Engine Oil- Brad Penn 20W-50
Engine start proceedure; Oil system pressurised with Diesel 30W run-in oil, fuel primed and ignition set before cranking
30 min cam break-in run on single valve springs at over 2000 rpm.
This engine was dyno tuned and then run at two race meetings and a few hundred kilometers on the street. In that preiod it was pulled down twice for
inspection and development purposes and the lifters had perfect 'no wear' indications.
Now if anybody can tell me how to improve this for longevety, I'm all ears.
After 30+ years building vw's, I can only put it to product failure, even though I've been using Scat lifters for many years.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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dangerous
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 09:38 PM |
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Yep, just not enough case hardening on the lifters.
This was common for scat lifters a couple of years ago,
probably trying to save some money on manufacture,(less time in the manuf. process).
I have used older scat lifters,(20 years ago) that wore concave from many miles,
but never pitted because the case was at least .060" thick.(I think they are still in wally's engine!!)
Same with the mahle Black ones and the silver Febe german ones.
But any guess what they are like now.
The CB racing lifters are getting a good wrap at the moment,
and if you can afford the 400 or so euros, the UDO BECKER billet steel lifters are nice too.
One thing is for sure, the lifter problems (all types of engines, not just volksy) has been great for sales hype
on new oil companies on the scene like Brad penn and LAT, among others.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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matberry
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 10:18 PM |
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Cheers Dave, I fear these issues are just not going away.
I had an issue with Febi Bilstein Type IV hydraulic lifters recently too. Changed to a very nice looking set of VW Brazil and they seem fine.
My next type IV I'm building now has a set of black Brazilian 'unheard of' brand and they too look nice, but I used to think that of the Scat and
Bilstein !!!!
Need to find some more black type 1's though, any leads???
Speaking of dollars, how's the ceramic lifters, heard they weren't much more, and very light. 
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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coletrickle
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 11:07 PM |
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Hey guys been busy,Humpty the brad penn is deffinatly not the cause of the broken springs and pitted lifters if there was an issuse with the oil the
bearings and cam lobes would show it they are PERFECT! you could use the bearings again but i'm not i've got some coated ones to use and we measured
the cam lobes 3 lobe measure the same and ! measures less than 1 thou less .As for the spings valve float/bounce could cause breakages but saying
that my motor probably one of the lowest red lines around for a racing/street engine it has a 6600 rpm limiting button and very rarely sees
6500rpm!big over rev on the down change can break springs but i never do that kind of thing i'll leave that to the circut racers and revving an
engine before having the engine parts reaching opperating temp(not just oil temp base metel temp)the noise i heard came after a cross town run and
happened less than 1 Klm from home on a 130 k round trip so thats not it i recon it bad quality parts i'll be going to a set of psi spring retainers
and locks,as for the liffters i've got a set of eaton lifters that i'm going to coat and i'll coat the cam while i'm at it and see where we end
up.I'm crack testing all parts as we speak if they all test good should be back togeather in a month.
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hellbugged
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| posted on February 4th, 2010 at 11:33 PM |
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15 second quarters with a 1600cc and your gonna claim you are a component compasionate commuter...............
GOOD ON YA TIGER!
(insert suitable "smiley" icon here, unfortunately they broken tonight)
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dangerous
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 05:20 AM |
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Tha 1600 ran well into the 14s..hehe.
Here you go....  
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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johny rotten
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 06:20 AM |
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Hello ,
I don't use lighter springs for the run in period, thats never made sense to me.
The way I see it correct tracking is more important so I run em in with the springs that they will be using.
Also if you shim the springs too close to coil bind then your asking for broken springs, broken springs will cause lifter failure , even if you use
the worlds best lifters.
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matberry
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 07:59 AM |
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All the lifters were pitted and they were perfect at two inspections both in colour, pattern and shape, so I dont think it was the run-in with singles
or the broken springs.
The only thing I can add re springs, is that they were an unknown age, they came with this engine, previously C95, tested fine and were used again.
I have to admit I always used to break-in with duals, just not tripples, but with the lifter/oil issues since my Volksrestore days, I followed
proceedure to the letter on this break-in.
I used Eaton lifters in most of my engines with good results, hopefully again. You haven't 2 more sets available Col???
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 04:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
Hello ,
I don't use lighter springs for the run in period, thats never made sense to me.
The way I see it correct tracking is more important so I run em in with the springs that they will be using.
Also if you shim the springs too close to coil bind then your asking for broken springs, broken springs will cause lifter failure , even if you use
the worlds best lifters.
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Yep totally agree, i would start looking there for the failure problem 
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coletrickle
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 08:54 PM |
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Correct tracking?And the lifters have not concaved they have just worn thru the very thin case hardening.As for the heads they were assembled by peter
at swift race engines all the valve seats were cut to get exactly the same installed height.All valve springs were checked for open and closed
pressure and are not shimmed close to coil bind.Like matty said the springs had an unknown age but they checked out good but?Any how i'm going to be
using psi valve springs all they do is spings retainers and locks,I've been checking with a couple of V8 supercar teams and have heard very good
things about the psi products so i'llgive them a go.
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matberry
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 09:06 PM |
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Good move.
Fair enough if the lifters aren't tracking some lifter damage could be expected but not in the form of pitting IMO. Surely the two broken spring
lifters would show more issues than the others.
Still think product failure.
Col, any more Eaton lifters for type 1?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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coletrickle
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 09:41 PM |
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No matt no more lifters i got these ones from u back in the volks restore days should have bought more I think they were only $80
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matberry
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| posted on February 5th, 2010 at 09:50 PM |
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Anybody got a time machine?
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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hellbugged
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 06:57 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Anybody got a time machine?
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yep.......a NOS Fridge
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bugzla
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 07:17 AM |
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hey matt who owns that old chop top now ................... tried to by it many moons ago i believe it was advertised at vvd around maybe 15 year ago
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dangerous
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 08:49 AM |
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Rod Richardson now owns the chop top.
...it probably IS close to 15 years since matt raced it...1995 matt?
It has been totally re-done twice, but now looks great in gloss black with the detailed Fuch wheels.
http://www.dak-a-takracing.com.au/otherteams.htm
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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bugzla
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 01:52 PM |
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i knew it ........................ doh ;(
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bugzla
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 01:56 PM |
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i tried for months to get that car but i cant remember i think matty was on a boat or something and i couldnt get in contact with him at that time the
co-owner left a message with him well i think he did good to see it went to a good home
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dangerous
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 02:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bugzla
i tried for months to get that car but i cant remember i think matty was on a boat or something and i couldnt get in contact with him at that time the
co-owner left a message with him well i think he did good to see it went to a good home
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You want to buy it?
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 02:14 PM |
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Hey Col, let us know what part numbers you end up with regard to springs/retainers/collets that fit the Volksy valves.
I have some here at the moment for a job, but no part numbers.
Craig from Crankshaft got them from Bill's (PSI)and machined the CB retainers to suit the new springs,
plus a very nice lower locator.
Will try to find some time to get a pic.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 06:10 PM |
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Mmm,nickies...
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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bugzla
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 07:45 PM |
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would love too dave but i think the price has changed a little i believe it was $6000 originally no motor but it would be a nice thought
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reub
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| posted on February 6th, 2010 at 08:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by dangerous
| Quote: | Originally
posted by bugzla
i tried for months to get that car but i cant remember i think matty was on a boat or something and i couldnt get in contact with him at that time the
co-owner left a message with him well i think he did good to see it went to a good home
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You want to buy it?
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????
Reub
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dangerous
A.k.a.: Dave Butler Muffin Man
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| posted on February 7th, 2010 at 12:15 AM |
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Everything has a price.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by westi
That's mad Alan.
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drgouk
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| posted on February 7th, 2010 at 06:11 AM |
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Dave, Is that Andrew Murphy's Engine? The barrels look good! How do they check out?
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