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 Special Air Service
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Chief "Gunna"
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 05:32 PM |
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M14 x 1.5mm helicoil kit for sump drain holes
Hello all,
I need to put a helicoil into my sump drain hole (stripped by previous owner & dodgied up) on a 2.1 wbx engine. 
A helicoil kit is $110 which includes 5 helicoils & tools to do the job, I am looking to share this kit around to help others out &/or share
my expense. 
I am looking at "sharing" for the cost of a "helicoïl" (about $3.50) + a little bit of tool cost ($5) + postage (depending on where you are but
$5 should cover most of aust.) then you send tools back to me.
Then of course we could put this in the "AVD tool register" so its available to all users.
What do you think? Any interested parties? Or am I dreaming? 
Or.......... is there someone out there that has already accumulated on of these little treasures that they would be willing to farm out for a similar
deal?
Must be someone other than me that has a dodgy drain hole.
This will only really interest people with WBX engines or Type 4 kombi engines. Type 1 engines you'd just replace the sump plate.
Cheers
Brendan
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 Bizarre
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 05:46 PM |
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I think you should look at the Time-sert version instead
Futue te ipsum!!!
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 barls
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 05:59 PM |
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try les mate i think he has one.
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johny rotten
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 06:03 PM |
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Don't use a Helicoil Not suitable for a WBX
you need a Time-Sert
As suggested
Any Good Vw shop will have em
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Special Air Service
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Chief "Gunna"
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 06:03 PM |
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Seen him this arvo mate, no luck.
Looking at time serts as well Barry, its just that helicoils are more ready available. ATM.
Cheers
Brendan
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1500S
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 06:15 PM |
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If you can hang off until tomorrow Brendan I'm going in to the old work so I can see what's there in the Timesert box. If not, there may be an M16
x 1.5 tap there you can have to tap it oversize to use with an oversize plug.
DH
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Special Air Service
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Chief "Gunna"
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 06:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
Don't use a Helicoil Not suitable for a WBX
you need a Time-Sert
As suggested
Any Good Vw shop will have em
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Why are they not suitable?
Cheers
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grumble
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| posted on May 31st, 2010 at 09:27 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Special Air Service
| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
Don't use a Helicoil Not suitable for a WBX
you need a Time-Sert
As suggested
Any Good Vw shop will have em
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Why are they not suitable?
Cheers
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From personal experience most of them leak because they are crooked or the coil screws into the case leaving a bloody big hole,go with the time sert.
Cheers Les
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 12:57 PM |
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if you fit a helicoil in alloy then you will have more problems
just use a time-sert as you have been advised
without going into
the reasons why
as info posted here is often misinterpreted
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 12:58 PM |
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Ask Barls old man
he seems to know it all
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1500S
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 02:22 PM |
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Just as well the aircraft and aerospace industry doesn't take our lowly advice on thread inserts in alloy!
DH
http://www.emhart.com/pdf/HC1018%20REV_2.pdf
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Special Air Service
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Chief "Gunna"
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 02:45 PM |
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It would appear that time-serts are the way to go.
Price however has dramatically increased....... time-sert kit containing 5 x inserts is $325.
Anyone know someone that would be willing to lend this sort of thing out?
Cheers
Brendan
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Bizarre
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 02:47 PM |
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My opinion for liking the timesert type over the coil is purely as a end user.
I have had both put in various engines and looking at a time sert it is an actual "thing" with a thread (thats a technical term ) that screws in where the damage is
I just struggle to acept a heli coil (a spring like thing that is dependent, if i am not mistaken, on the damaged hole) is a better device.
Not saying it cant work - i would just like to know why it is better than a time sert.
I can see the opposite reason
Futue te ipsum!!!
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1500S
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 03:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Bizarre
My opinion for liking the timesert type over the coil is purely as a end user.
I have had both put in various engines and looking at a time sert it is an actual "thing" with a thread (thats a technical term ) that screws in where the damage is
I just struggle to acept a heli coil (a spring like thing that is dependent, if i am not mistaken, on the damaged hole) is a better device.
Not saying it cant work - i would just like to know why it is better than a time sert.
I can see the opposite reason
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A thread insert doesn't go into a damaged hole! It goes into a brand new tapped hole which is either in a stripped thread or a new assembly from
new. They are very good where a fastener is to be regularly removed and replaced but are actually stronger thread wise than being just the tapped
thread in alloy parts. Remember that we have to stick to the rules of how much length of thread compared to the diameter of the thread. THAT is why
any thread will strip, especially in alloy if the same length is used as for steel or cast iron. With alloy, it's best to be at least 2 x dia
thread length.
BRENDAN. I have an M16 x 1.5 tap if you want to open it out to use an oversize plug. I'll pm my phone number so you can give me a call later on
tonight. A lot cheaper as it'll only cost you a Toohey's old at Nambucca!!
DH
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Thinker
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 05:14 PM |
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i would use a heli coil over an insert type plug any day of the week, but i am guessing that your motor is still in the car so the problem you will
have with a heli coil is that you need to snap the small tag off the end and there is a good chance that it will end up in side the motor ( not good )
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 08:43 PM |
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thats another reason I don't like to fly
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 08:49 PM |
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tapping the case to 16mm would in my opinion be stupid
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waveman1500
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 09:34 PM |
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Why are these heli-coil kits so expensive? Is it just because of the large size or what? I heli-coiled the sump plate holes in my Beetle engine case,
with the motor in the car, and all went well. I was able to retrieve the snapped-off tang without losing it in the motor, and all went well. The
helicoil kit certainly wasn't anywhere near $110 though, it would've been under $50.
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 09:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
Why are these heli-coil kits so expensive? Is it just because of the large size or what? I heli-coiled the sump plate holes in my Beetle engine case,
with the motor in the car, and all went well. I was able to retrieve the snapped-off tang without losing it in the motor, and all went well. The
helicoil kit certainly wasn't anywhere near $110 though, it would've been under $50.
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maybe because you used a 6mm helicoil
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1500S
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 09:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
tapping the case to 16mm would in my opinion be stupid
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What size is it tapped to repair with an M14 x 1.5 Timesert?? That's right! M16 x 1.5 . The actual OD of the tap is 16.104 mm! A Timesert
with original plug or M16 x 1.5 with oversize plug...... why??? Because we can but most definitely not stupid.
Also with the Timesert the length of the insert must suit the material thickness otherwise the "threadflow" tap for installation may not lock it in
place correctly. Don't "just get a Timesert" of any length.
DH
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 1st, 2010 at 11:35 PM |
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Tap it to 16mm , use a helicoil
have the helicoil damage the thread when someone changes the oil
then what ? tap it 18 mm ?
A 16mm sump plug is also IMO stupid
I like things to look original.
not dodged up or
signed by the mechanic
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1500S
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 08:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by johny rotten
Tap it to 16mm , use a helicoil
have the helicoil damage the thread when someone changes the oil
then what ? tap it 18 mm ?
A 16mm sump plug is also IMO stupid
I like things to look original.
not dodged up or
signed by the mechanic
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We are here to help Brendan fix a problem, not argue if something is stupid or not! Whichever method we use.... Helicoil, Timesert or oversize plug
is individual choice. I have given correct engineering alternatives to a problem created by either a heavyhanded previous owner, likewise
heavyhanded motor mechanic etc.
You supply him with the Timesert and tap and installation tools to help a fellow veedubber out OR I'll supply him with a standard M16 x 1.5 tap and
the plug to suit, regardless of you thinking it's stupid or doesn't look original under the engine where no one will see it.
Signed by the Engineer.
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johny rotten
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 07:59 PM |
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I did not say that I am a mechanic
My qualifications were not stated.
If u read the post you will see that what I meant was if u use a 16mm plug the mechanic or whoever does this has signed the job or left his mark.
Anyway I am too far away to do the job and I don't lend tools
I was just telling him what is the correct repair for his WBX
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barls
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 08:10 PM |
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johnny ive re read back and can find no where you’ve given any info apart from bagging out the ideas others have put forward.
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Thinker
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 08:11 PM |
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if you are going to use a heli coil dont tap it 16mm make sure you use the correct heli coil tap.
if that heli coil does get damaged in the future, no dramas pull the coil out and fit a new one you dont have to go bigger.
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matberry
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 09:36 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Thinker
if you are going to use a heli coil dont tap it 16mm make sure you use the correct heli coil tap.
if that heli coil does get damaged in the future, no dramas pull the coil out and fit a new one you dont have to go bigger.
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Special Air Service
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Chief "Gunna"
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 09:53 PM |
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After careful consideration of all the above advice I have decided to (at this stage) make do with what I have currently (plug not yet fully stripped)
& jerry-rig a failsafe over the sump plug until I can thoroughly look at all of my repair options. I am a qualified machinist / toolmaker
(although now working outside my trade) & up until I posted this idea on here, would not have had any real hesitation using a helicoil repair. my
only real concern was making sure it went in square to ensure a seal between plug & seat.
Its funny how a simple idea can quickly turn into a my ways better than your way, your right I'm wrong type arguement. Well thats how it appears to
me anyhow.
Thanks to all those that have provided meaniful input.
I take it that no one else is interested in a M14 x1.5 helicoil ???????
Dallas, I'll return your PM shortly.
Cheers
Brendan
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| posted on June 2nd, 2010 at 11:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Special Air Service
After careful consideration of all the above advice I have decided to (at this stage) make do with what I have currently (plug not yet fully stripped)
& jerry-rig a failsafe over the sump plug until I can thoroughly look at all of my repair options. I am a qualified machinist / toolmaker
(although now working outside my trade) & up until I posted this idea on here, would not have had any real hesitation using a helicoil repair. my
only real concern was making sure it went in square to ensure a seal between plug & seat.
Its funny how a simple idea can quickly turn into a my ways better than your way, your right I'm wrong type arguement. Well thats how it appears to
me anyhow.
Thanks to all those that have provided meaniful input.
I take it that no one else is interested in a M14 x1.5 helicoil ???????
Dallas, I'll return your PM shortly.
Cheers
Brendan
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 Ok mate. Good to see another Toolmaker amongst us! Pity I'm
only back part time at TAFE now otherwise the Fitting and Machining section would own a few metric fine series Helicoils and Timeserts as well!! But
then again, maybe they still need some....... M14 x 1.5 may get on the list tomorrow!!
DH
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