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Author: Subject:  Camber... Bending Top arms
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question.gif posted on June 15th, 2010 at 06:28 PM
Camber... Bending Top arms


Anyone done this??? I am trying to purchase eccentric Camber adjusters for my 68 bug BJ beam and have been told not to worry about the extra adjuster but to get the top arms bent... has anyone done this??? and is it safe/ good??? Can i still get adjusters, looking for -4/5Deg camber



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posted on June 15th, 2010 at 06:38 PM



Ummm... what the !?!?!

Extra eccentric adjusters shouldn't be hard to get... most Volksy places should have them. I have them in Jezebel, and I've got 3.5 degress neg no worries, but don't know about 4 or 5 degrees.

Bending the torsion arms I don't think is all that great an idea... dunno about safe, but damn sure it's illegal for rego purposes (assuming that's a consideration)




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posted on June 15th, 2010 at 06:59 PM



That was along my train of thought??????
Any others

Cheers
PS Sides your car looks pretty good from what i have been reading, is that BJ and IRS?




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posted on June 15th, 2010 at 07:25 PM



yes have bent the arms for more camber when the excentric just wont do



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posted on June 15th, 2010 at 11:59 PM



wheel alignment shops sometimes bend struts and also other suspension components
its fine for rego etc
just don't use any heat on them
If you wan't 5 degs you will need to bend the top arms
:lol:
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posted on June 16th, 2010 at 12:52 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by Sides
Ummm... what the !?!?!

Extra eccentric adjusters shouldn't be hard to get... most Volksy places should have them. I have them in Jezebel, and I've got 3.5 degress neg no worries, but don't know about 4 or 5 degrees.

Bending the torsion arms I don't think is all that great an idea... dunno about safe, but damn sure it's illegal for rego purposes (assuming that's a consideration)


that's good to know...
I have the extra camber eccentrics [bought them years ago]
they used to be expensive.. not sure whether they still are??

I believe a lot of arms get bent when the ball joints are pressed in/out...

so, a Good press would bend them OK...

not sure how you measure the bend???

LEE

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posted on June 16th, 2010 at 04:38 AM



was a hellbug practice back in the day. am building a track car at the mo and have bent the top arms in a 500t press no probs the reason it is a valid mod is that there is so much deflection in th front that the tyre actually "falls" over when loaded just check out some pics of very light formula vees to see this in action. Greg mackie has an arm on his upside down ride that helps with this, am designing something similar for a bj front for my bug



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posted on June 16th, 2010 at 06:19 AM



OK, cool - looks like I've learnt something new !!!

;)

Interested to hear how you go if you do get 'em bent Aussie... might be something worth considering in the future.

:tu:




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posted on June 28th, 2010 at 10:49 PM



I think i'll just try the camber adjusters for now d bend later if i need more



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posted on June 29th, 2010 at 08:45 PM



Let me know if you need the bent arms, I can do it and have the measurements :tu:



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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 12:07 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by Craig Torrens
Let me know if you need the bent arms, I can do it and have the measurements :tu:


Do You find many arms bent ??

from wear & tear etc..

LEE




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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 06:14 AM



get bent Dave :lol:
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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 07:40 AM



bend them all ...love 4.1/2 degress
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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 08:56 AM



Ok maybe i will have to... question?
Can i run the 4.5 to 5 degrees negative camber and still drive it on the road? Tyres an issues???




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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 10:21 AM



If you want to wear out your tyres quickly, enjoy the car 'tracking' the road and reduce your braking ability in a straight line........then yes you can drive it on the road:D:lol:



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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 10:29 AM



???
Um, what? I am looking at driving it to and from the track, and from what i have read i need further camber adjustment. So i thought i would buy some super eccentric camber adjusters, then i read that they may not give me enough camber, so i found out about bending the top arms. i can assume that there would be noticible camber but did not consider reduced braking as a result... can you give me some more info on this one craig? I am building my pan up as we speak and want a car i can drive to the track and home again. suggestions? PS i am looking at 2 castor shims each side, lowered adjustable beam, Adjustable HD Roll Bar, new BJ TRE and steering coupling, i will also clean out the steering box and readjust, and new front bearings.




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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 12:48 PM



More Camber = less load on the outside half of the tyre when driving in a straight line. This means less contact patch, and therefore decreases your "grip" area of the tyre for braking.:tu:

Its hard to have a car setup for both road and track without compromising somewhere...........you just need to decide what that compromise is..........corner speed for the track or braking ability in an emergency on the road ??




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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 12:55 PM



i agree... i just didn't consider it... braking is a big priority for me to improve also, so i didn't think about this obviously... (but yes i understand the geometry changes we are making by increasing camber) what have you done for good cheap brakes that work very well (don't you love contradictions.... i am thinking Type 3 rears with a material upgrade and maybe even type 3 front calipers with a material upgrade and dot 4 fluid... what do you think???? will i have braking issues??? my last project was a BAJA with big rear wheels and i had stadard brakes that while worked and were up to original spec, just didn't cut it. i have seen the maniac kits by VWCOOL but they are a lot of dough. I have also seen 944 rear calipers but seem like a lot of work and cash for not much improvement over type 3 rears... set me straight if i am wrong.



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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 03:10 PM



just depends on what "racing" you will be doing.....but I find Type 3 brakes are fine on a beetle.



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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 05:20 PM



never had a problem stopping my car and never seemed to lock the front wheels but that was circuit racing only:tu:
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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 05:36 PM



Quote:

Its hard to have a car setup for both road and track without compromising somewhere




Shit thats the BEST statement ive ever herd you write

what ever yo uwant Drag or Circuit its very hard to havea happy medium

its best off have one car fora special purpose if u can afford it

but it is great fun to have yr street car on the track anytime




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yes.gif posted on June 30th, 2010 at 06:37 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by Aussie Dubbin
???
Um, what? I am looking at driving it to and from the track, and from what i have read i need further camber adjustment. So i thought i would buy some super eccentric camber adjusters, then i read that they may not give me enough camber, so i found out about bending the top arms. i can assume that there would be noticible camber but did not consider reduced braking as a result... can you give me some more info on this one craig? I am building my pan up as we speak and want a car i can drive to the track and home again. suggestions? PS i am looking at 2 castor shims each side, lowered adjustable beam, Adjustable HD Roll Bar, new
BJ TRE and steering coupling, i will also clean out the steering box and readjust, and new front bearings.



Hi
I don't know anything about racing etc...
but the standard Beetle calipers and standard drums on the rear work really well... I can usually lock up all 4 wheels If I hit the brakes hard on a sealed road..
that's an emergency stop... lol

but I have no problems with the standard VW brakes on My beetle.. [IRS rear end]

many beetle owners put type 3 rears on... [wider shoes etc]

if I needed them, I would have added them.. lol

You may still need the camber adjusters to fine tune the front end... ?
and OK on the caster shims....
that's a lot of caster.... check that Your wheels don't touch the edge of the guards..
My 6 inch wheels with 165x15 tyres touched with hard braking and turning at the same time... with single castor adjusters..
I may have to find some 5 inch front wheels..??

cheers

LEE



did...

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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 07:52 PM



Aussie Dubbin , I have a 76 beetle that I have been driving on the street since 1996 and I have set it up with 4 deg. neg camber all round and it corners well . I do not have any issues with the std braking system up front and a set of Empi rear disc's at the rear and am using a 205/65/15 tyre . I have noticed after about 15,000 km's that the front tyres show a little wear on the inside and are about the same amount of wear front to rear . I do run the pressures a bit low @ 24 rear and 20 front . I have tried the over excentric adjusters and found to be at about 3 deg. neg was the limit . I have bent the top arms at a measurement of 6mm and this will give me about 5 deg. neg and I have 10mm arms that will give me about 8-9 deg. neg . I keep these arms here and am happy to do you a set if you need them . With the amount of tyre that is not actually contacting the road is very minimal and will not affect your braking in any real way . I would recomend the use of castor shims to keep the car from tracking on a shitty road , ROD .



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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 09:33 PM



Over the width of a 205mm wide tyre, a 4 deg variance represents around 14.3mm difference from the horizontal.........so if it was a straight line (tyres compress to compensate), the outside edge would be 14.3mm higher than the inside edge (mathematically). So in real life the car loads the inside edge far greater than the outside, causing a dramatic increase in wear.....its not rocket science

Here is a photo of 4 deg neg on my beetle...........if you believe that it won't cause wear or has little affect on the tyre contact patch then you're an idiot.

As for braking, its very seldom you need to 'hit the brakes hard' in racing..........YES you need to brake hard, but this is usually controlled. The braking I'm refering to is sudden traffic braking (reaction to an emergency), and having half your tyre not really being loaded will mean your 205 tyre will stop you as good as a say a 165 tyre of equivilent compound that has no neg camber.

Caster shims are a must for any lowered beetle, and will help with high speed stability............but they wont help with tracking caused by increased static camber on "shitty" roads.

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posted on June 30th, 2010 at 10:52 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by RodPenrose
Craigy , you need to go back and do your calculations again and you will see who the idiot is . It dosen't look like that tyre is 14.3mm off the ground , ROD.


Yawn.......

humour me Rodney, what do you think it is mathematically ?...............this should be worth a laugh :lol:

No its not 14.3mm off the ground because the tyre is compressed at the inner edge, reducing the height on the outer edge........but to compress the inner edge the tyre MUST have more load on it, creating more wear.




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posted on July 1st, 2010 at 08:53 AM



This has seen great responses guys, i really like that last photo thanks craig, perhaps... i could get a set of top arms bent and keep a straight pair also... or just bite the bullet like you guys are suggesting. If i am looking at 4* neg maybe 5* then can i back it off the other way too??? that way i could work between say 2.5* to 6* negative camber... or am i only able to go further with the bent aram... are you guys able to give me a price for bent arms??? or would you like me to PM you. Cheers this is exactly the info i am looking for.:no:



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posted on July 1st, 2010 at 11:54 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by RodPenrose
Aussie Dubbin , I have a 76 beetle that I have been driving on the street since 1996 and I have set it up with 4 deg. neg camber all round and it corners well . I do not have any issues with the std braking system up front and a set of Empi rear disc's at the rear and am using a 205/65/15 tyre . I have noticed after about 15,000 km's that the front tyres show a little wear on the inside and are about the same amount of wear front to rear . I do run the pressures a bit low @ 24 rear and 20 front . I have tried the over excentric adjusters and found to be at about 3 deg. neg was the limit . I have bent the top arms at a measurement of 6mm and this will give me about 5 deg. neg and I have 10mm arms that will give me about 8-9 deg. neg . I keep these arms here and am happy to do you a set if you need them . With the amount of tyre that is not actually contacting the road is very minimal and will not affect your braking in any real way . I would recomend the use of castor shims to keep the car from tracking on a shitty road , ROD .


This helps explain what I'm saying re tyre wear, braking and tracking.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4 




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posted on July 3rd, 2010 at 05:42 PM



yep leave the bent arms in and just turn your excentrics back and enjoy the best of both worlds just remember that it also adjusts your caster angle!



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posted on July 3rd, 2010 at 06:20 PM
love the camber


all looks better when under load, still photos in the garage no fun Craig :lol:

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posted on July 3rd, 2010 at 07:47 PM



:lol::lol:....it was the only photo I could find NOT loaded !!!

So have you built your new car yet ??!




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