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 Googlebot
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 09:02 AM |
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Narrowed/lowered NSW legality
Hi Guys,
These narrowed Bugs - how do you stand with legality, in my case in NSW. I'm guessing it's obvious that you would require (strictly speaking) an
Engineer's Certificate? Or does the age of the car nullify this (wishful deluded thinking?)?
Could it even be certified?
Thanks in advance. |
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benjicon
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 09:43 AM |
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Mines narrow and low .. Passed blue slip no worries. But I have an adjustable beam, so is put it down another notch after it passed. I figure if I get
a defect warning, I will pop it back up .... and then back down when it clears  Think I am only narrowed 2 inches too.
My thinking is, if its not horribly obvious, you will probably get away with it.
No i'm not repainting it.
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1303Steve
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 10:15 AM |
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Hi
Speak to an engineer 1st.
I'm pretty sure that NSW still has a law that if you get defected three times for the same thing they will cancel the rego and make the car with that
VIN illegal to register.
Passing a blue slip is not a way of saying that all mods on a car are legal, far from it, most blue slip examiners wouldn't bother too much, they get
paid peanuts.
Steve
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vwo60
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 10:25 AM |
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I do not see how decreasing the track of a vehicle would be legal, fitment of wheels with incorrect offset by narrowing the track is exactly the same
as being over the legal track, its the relationship to the suspension geomrtry that is the issue, i called my engineer and he would not approve any
reducion in track in queensland, bearing in mind that the rule's will be Australia wide eventually, all the other issues that go with a reducion in
track and the wrong offset wheels, increased spring rate, increased wheel bearing wear, increased wear on the trailing arm bushes, increased bump
steer, decrease in stability.
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donn
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 11:34 AM |
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I've always wondered why you would want to, maybe someone here can clue me as to why. 
I dream of a day when a chicken can cross a road without being asked for it's motive!
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bajachris88
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 12:09 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by donn
I've always wondered why you would want to, maybe someone here can clue me as to why.
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narrowed beam allows for driveable 'on its guts' lowering by allowing more room for the wheels to steer without rubbing against the inside of the
wheel guards. It gives it greater space.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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benjicon
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 12:15 PM |
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.... and it looks ACE!!! Kinda like the old Porsche 356 Outlaw with the wheels tucked under.
http://coldtrackdays.blogspot.com/2009/07/build-thread-porsche-356-outlaw.html
No i'm not repainting it.
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Googlebot
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 12:24 PM |
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It definitely looks ace. To be honest though, whilst I've not been defected before, I have experienced the anxiety of driving around in an
unengineered modified car, knowing big bills could be awaiting in the next plod car I encounter. Not something I really want to set myself up for
again.
Good old Australian nanny state legislation. |
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vwo60
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 12:34 PM |
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it's great until you kill some one and you have no insurance and i don't know how it would be drivable when you have reduced the stability of the
vehicle
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benjicon
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 01:20 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
it's great until you kill some one and you have no insurance and i don't know how it would be drivable when you have reduced the stability of the
vehicle
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Really man ? You make it sound like a bug with a narrowed track is a death trap waiting to slaughter people.
I dont disagree that narrowing the track may change the handling (slightly) ... but I think for a driver to notice the difference he would have to be
driving like a bat out of hell in order to test the limits ... So then whats to blame really ? The 2" off the front axle or the person driving it
??
I drive really slowly all the time.. partly cause I have an old 1200 in mine and partly cause I dont want to get caught speeding.. the handling has
NEVER caused me any problems.
No i'm not repainting it.
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vwo60
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 04:00 PM |
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A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.
When you narrow the front end and reduce the track it will realy affect the stability, no matter how slow you drive you will eventually get into a
situation were it could make a difference, when you lower the car to that extent it also contributes to the instability, driving around in a modified
vehicle that has not been engineered is as i stated, kill some one or be involved in a bad enough accident and you can be charged with culpable
driving, so what's really to blame, it's the person who drove the car with the unapproved modification's.
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benjicon
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 04:29 PM |
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Cool man.
No i'm not repainting it.
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Paulc1964au
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 06:07 PM |
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If you narrow the beam and increase wheel / tyre size have you actually narrowed the wheel track if the outer diameter of the wheel is at the same
point of the original wheel?
Having said that i put wider tyres and wheels but didnt narrow the beam.
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zayus
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 06:16 PM |
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Hey Hey,
So, can a narrowed beam be engineered to be legal in NSW?
There is more than a few Beetles and Kombis running around with their bellies on the ground.
How did you guys do it?
Or do you just rely on the select-a-drop front end, and raise the front for rego?
They look great in photos and and shows, what are they like to drive, and stop in?
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 06:22 PM |
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Nanny state strikes again.  more people die talking on their
mobile phones than from modified track accidents. And thats the truth. Drive within your limits and you can still get taken out by a drugged up or
drunk safety sam driver in his Pillow Car. Towies still pull dead people out of NEW CARS. Live and Let die. My2c
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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STIDUB
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 06:47 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Paulc1964au
If you narrow the beam and increase wheel / tyre size have you actually narrowed the wheel track if the outer diameter of the wheel is at the same
point of the original wheel?
Having said that i put wider tyres and wheels but didnt narrow the beam.
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track is measured from the center to center of the tyres so...
narrow beam + wide wheels,same offset = narrowed track
narrowed beam + wide wheels, LOWER offset = stock track
in theory provided all the numbers add up, say for a 2" narrowed beam it would need to go from stock is roughly et36? wheels down to et11 (center of
the wheels gets pushed out 25mm each side)
that said going +25mm total /12mm each side means engineering cert, in qld at least 
hope that helps & not confuses
Volkswagen Drivers Club of Queensland - member
STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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vwo60
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 07:18 PM |
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It does not work that way, the wheel position relates to the suspension geometry, narrowing the beam then moving the wheels towards the outside of
the car just loads up the suspension and changes all the important things like scrub radius, when track is mentioned it is asummed that no one is
going to narrow the suspension, it is effectivly the same as being 50mm over track when you are allowed only 25mm.
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Joel
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 07:41 PM |
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Sensible narrowing of beams has its place, for instance when I was rebuilding my 1500 BJ/IRS bug to get my 17x7 rims to fit nicely with the stock
gaurds and also still maintain a decent turning circle I was going to narrow the beam 2" which does not have a major effect on vehicle stability,
even being a germanlooker that I was setting up for trackwork.
However taking 3 feet out of the beam, losing the shock towers and belting the shit out of the fuel tank for clearance, thats just stupid, and sad
thing is I've seen it done.
As for looking ace, thats subjective, some do look good, others that you need a flashlight to see the front rims, no comment
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Craig S
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 08:23 PM |
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On the whole nanny state thing:
* Yes, we live with an imperfect system, but in terms of the available systems around the world, we don't have too much to complain about. Isn't it
Italy that won't allow you to modify a car at all?
* Yes, a lot of the time rules seem to be made just so that someone can look like they're doing something, but that's all part of the system.
* Yes you can be killed in any one of 10,000 different ways, and just because they try to reduce the number killed by any one particular method
doesn't mean it can't still happen, but that is why it is risk reduction, not risk elimination. The argument that you can still get killed in a new
car is not valid. No one suggests you can't, but it does make it much safer than travelling in an old car.
The government that we as a society has elected to make certain decisions for us has decided that the right of an individual to excessively narrow the
beam on their beetle doesn't outweigh the rights of others to remain safe. Regardless of whether you agree with that or not, that's the way it is.
This is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society, that the ability of people to do anything they like is curtailed for the greater good of society.
Otherwise the strong (monetary or physical) would run roughshod over all others.
Modifying a car to get it past inspection and then taking it outside the parameters of that inspection is not only illegal, but highly risky.
For my own part, I have a 74 L Bug that is about to be lowered (obviously there isn't a beam), and so I do get concerned that shortly a public
servant will decide that my car is a public menace and that I shouldn't be allowed to drive it, but with everything I'm trying to do I'm aiming to
improve on what was produced by the factory, which is different from doing something which is known to increase risk.
As an aside, how would some of the engineering from red9 design go?
http://www.red9design.co.uk/index.htm
I saw a barndoor in the last issue of VolksWorld with one of their wishbone systems in. That obviously removes the beam and should improve handling,
but if you really want to lower a car on it's guts you'd still have to try and narrow it to be able to have any sort of turning circle which would
still be illegal. So the only solution is to be happier with the car not at snake height.
1969 Beetle - June
1974 L Bug - Gwendolyn
2002 Bora V6 4Motion - Anita
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STIDUB
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 08:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
It does not work that way, the wheel position relates to the suspension geometry, narrowing the beam then moving the wheels towards the outside of
the car just loads up the suspension and changes all the important things like scrub radius, when track is mentioned it is asummed that no one is
going to narrow the suspension, it is effectivly the same as being 50mm over track when you are allowed only 25mm.
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if i tried to explain all that without knowing much about beam front ends it would get confusing for both me and whoever was reading it, -strut front
ends on the other hand i CAN explain all that, though i have wider guards too...
oh - we spoke in wally's drag car trailer about that ej20 bug in brissy i believe, beams just arent my thing remember -though that red9 kinda thing
that craig linked has tickled me for awhile...
and wheres the build thread of the L bug with aeros???
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STIDUB - yep its still a work in progress
Vwdcq club car racing/ and crashing while my bug isn't finished.
The above are personal views, no more, no less |
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waveman1500
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 09:02 PM |
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If you want to be able to go low with a good turning circle, what about putting widened guards over stock-width wheels? It would provide the extra
clearance required for lowering without compromising safety and legality, and it would look awesome as well. Plus, wide guards are fairly cheap, so it
might even be cheaper than a narrowed beam! It's win-win all round.
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 helbus
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 09:53 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.
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Wha? Now that is funny 
Read this page
http://squid1351.tripod.com/squidsvair/id1.html
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 25th, 2010 at 10:51 PM |
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good witch hunt! 
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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benjicon
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 08:43 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by helbus
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.
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Wha? Now that is funny
Read this page
http://squid1351.tripod.com/squidsvair/id1.html
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LOL... Yeah I read that and a heap of other stuff leaving me with the same conclusion about Nadder ... twat.
No i'm not repainting it.
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vwo60
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 10:33 AM |
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The current regs are only in place as a response to people performing back yard mods that have been responsable for loose of life and injury over the
years, i have no problems working with those regs and to make my car legal, this way i can insure my car and have no issues with the law and if i have
a accident i know that i am covered
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 matberry
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 11:37 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
and if i have a accident i know that i am covered
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Well there's another can of worms in that statement
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Gringo_54_oval
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 03:10 PM |
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I DONT CARE!!!! (yes im yelling)
my bug is lowered and i like it and no it wont kill anybody else because i did it and i did it right and all those who dont like it can
.....................!
ok i feel better now 
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LUFTMEISTER
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 05:35 PM |
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if your wiper blades are cracked and you have an accident in the rain then your insurer can decline your claim. Loopholes are named that way for a
reason. 
Customer service is not dead in Australia.
Always after HAZET & MATRA & VW factory tools
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Birdman
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 06:42 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by LUFTMEISTER
if your wiper blades are cracked and you have an accident in the rain then your insurer can decline your claim. Loopholes are named that way for a
reason.
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Awe come on man!
That's a bit of a stretch. Yes i should know as i have worked for AAMI, AMP, NRMA, GIO etc etc
Think about it this way people,
It's difficult to do all the mods you want and stay legal.
Flout the law and do you think they are gonna make it easier for us in the future?
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vwo60
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| posted on October 26th, 2010 at 06:55 PM |
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Its good to see that gringo 54 oval's car is lowered correctly and so the modification must be approved
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