| [ Total Views: 220767 | Total Replies: 42 | Thread Id: 90413 ] |
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 Ollie
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 12:32 PM |
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All wheel drive vs. 4 wheel drive
Hey guys,
I was talking to a few blokes at work and we couldn't work out the difference between AWD and 4x4?
Is it to do with the differential? Or the size of the vehicle? Or power distribution?
I'd love it if someone could help me out 
Cheers, Ollie
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VDUBXTC
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 12:59 PM |
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As described by Alan Swanson
Full-time 4WD operates as the name suggests. At all times torque is supplied to all four wheels, all of the time. The driver usually has several
options available to them which affect the operation of the drivetrain depending on the conditions that are encountered.
In normal operation (such as driving on a bitumen surface) the front and rear axles are split by a differential which allows them to operate at
different speeds when required -- for example, when cornering.
In most vehicles there will be the option of 'diff lock'. This locks up the centre differential and restricts any rotational difference between the
front and rear axles. It's a feature that is commonly used when offroading to gain maximum traction.
There may also be the option of 'low range'. Usually used in extreme offroad conditions and on steep inclines, this changes the gearing of the
drivetrain to provide a torque multiplying effect similar to the lowest gearing on a mountain bike.
Part-time 4WD is the original 4WD system and the most basic.
As with Full time 4WD there are several options available to the driver. In normal conditions the vehicle is driven in two-wheel drive, usually
powering only the rear wheels. 4WD mode can be selected either by a separate mechanical lever or by an electronic switching system.
When 4WD is selected, torque is split evenly between the four wheels.
Part time 4WD vehicles tend not to have differentials between the front and rear axles. This limits the use of 4WD to offroad use because use of this
feature on bitumen surfaces (where tyres have good traction) can cause excess stress and damage to the drivetrain (often called wind-up).
Most vehicles of this type have the option of 'low range' for extreme off-road conditions.
All-Wheel Drive is in some ways similar to the full-time 4WD system in that it also sends torque to all four wheels constantly.
These systems never have the option to operate in two-wheel drive, and unlike the 4WD systems, the differential between the front and rear axles
cannot be locked. The differentials do, however, have ability to limit slippage between the axles if a low traction situation is encountered.
Usually this ability is provided with a differential known as a viscous coupling although more recently a similar outcome has been achieved by using
electronically-controlled hydraulic or electro-magnetic 'clutch' systems.
AWD systems also lack the 'low range' feature which is common in most 4WDs.
The AWD system is less effective and more fragile than the 4WD system in a situation where high torque is required. Indeed, the viscous coupling units
simply cannot satisfy high torque demands when the vehicle is offroad. AWD vehicles tend to be more 'car' like than obvious offroaders.
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Sunset Garage
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 01:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
As described by Alan Swanson
The AWD system is less effective and more fragile than the 4WD system in a situation where high torque is required. Indeed, the viscous coupling units
simply cannot satisfy high torque demands when the vehicle is offroad. AWD vehicles tend to be more 'car' like than obvious offroaders.
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Alan Swanson is obviously a 4wd guy!
I think the Audi engineers would rightfully disagree with the last paragragh. Unless he wrote this 30 years ago he's obviously not familiar with
Audi's Torsen Diff system, or 'Quattro' as most know it as. This is the same system which has taken Audi to victory in the world rally
championship, Pikes Peak, English, German, Australian touring car championships. The UR Quattro was banned from competing in the WRC because it was
too good, same for world touring car championships. Fragile? Hardly!
For shits & giggles youtube some of Audi's Quattro race & rally cars.
I think a better definition is; 4wd enables vehicles to go offroad, at the cost of driving like a pig on sealed roads, AWD enables vehicles to go
offroad with speed, and stick to any road surface like shit to a blanket.
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 01:30 PM |
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4wd is serious AWD is a gimmick... That said most people wont put themselves into a situation in the $60-80K AWD cars to warrant a propper 4wd system.
propper 4wds are strong robust and able to handle serious terrain, and get you out of trouble. Again the car is sutup that way. Have a look at the
tyres for example, who would go serious 4WDing with quiet and smooth highway tyres????
Depends what you are looking for.
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VDUBXTC
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 01:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DOKA Dave
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
As described by Alan Swanson
The AWD system is less effective and more fragile than the 4WD system in a situation where high torque is required. Indeed, the viscous coupling units
simply cannot satisfy high torque demands when the vehicle is offroad. AWD vehicles tend to be more 'car' like than obvious offroaders.
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Alan Swanson is obviously a 4wd guy!
I think the Audi engineers would rightfully disagree with the last paragragh. Unless he wrote this 30 years ago he's obviously not familiar with
Audi's Torsen Diff system, or 'Quattro' as most know it as. This is the same system which has taken Audi to victory in the world rally
championship, Pikes Peak, English, German, Australian touring car championships. The UR Quattro was banned from competing in the WRC because it was
too good, same for world touring car championships. Fragile? Hardly!
For shits & giggles youtube some of Audi's Quattro race & rally cars.
I think a better definition is; 4wd enables vehicles to go offroad, at the cost of driving like a pig on sealed roads, AWD enables vehicles to go
offroad with speed, and stick to any road surface like shit to a blanket.
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I have no clue to if he's a 4wd bloke or not. No idea if he knows his shit or not. Do i care if he does? Not a care in the world. just posted up
what i happened to be reading in the reviews in cars guide. just a few minutes before ollies question was asked and thought it may help him.
But I'm glad you have been able to clear the subject up for us all cheers.
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ian.mezz
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 01:46 PM |
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awd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgdExdKxIyE&NR=1
 
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The_Bronze.
A.k.a.: Bronze
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 02:21 PM |
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4WD & AWD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4IYYOYfgig
[size=4]Bronze.[/size]
Rathmines, Lake Macquarie, NSW.
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Ollie
A.k.a.: Ollie Clarke
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 02:25 PM |
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Thanks Jace, appreciate that
Still a little foggy to me but I think the line,
"These systems never have the option to operate in two-wheel drive, and unlike the 4WD systems, the differential between the front and rear axles
cannot be locked. The differentials do, however, have ability to limit slippage between the axles if a low traction situation is encountered."
best sums up the difference!
I'll have to view those youtube clips at home - at work at the moment!
Thanks Guys!
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PurpleT3
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 02:29 PM |
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My understanding is that 4WD is what is typically used in vehicles intended for off-road use e.g. Landcruisers, Patrols etc. Most have either manual
or automatically locked front hubs. When you are on tarmac the front hubs are unlocked and torque is sent to the rear wheels only, when off-road the
front hubs are locked and torque is sent to all four wheels.
All wheel drive is what typically found on cars intended for on-road use - Subarus are probably the best known example. Torque is sent to all fours
wheels in accordance with how much grip each wheel has. Less grip, less torque, more grip, more torque.
Have a look here: http://www.subaru-global.com/about/awd/performance/index.html
Ain't nothin' like the wind in your hair.
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bajachris88
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 02:37 PM |
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awd = diahatsu terios
4x4 = landcruiser
Which one would win a jousting competition? Definitely the landcruiser
if a 4x4 like a landcruiser is set in 4x4 mode, then it pretty much is awd. i was under the assumption the only reason for going to 2wd in a 4x4 was
simply for fuel economy to reduce drive train losses in power.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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Ben386
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 03:53 PM |
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The viscous coupling set up on a T25 is an AWD system(like Quatro).A syncro with a decoupler becomes selectable AWD as it can be driven in 2WD then
switched to AWD on the fly.(with speed).
If someone was to replace their VC with a solid shaft,then there Syncro would become 4WD and couldnt be driven on pavement whilst decoupler was
coupled.
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Sunset Garage
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 05:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
| Quote: | Originally
posted by DOKA Dave
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
As described by Alan Swanson
The AWD system is less effective and more fragile than the 4WD system in a situation where high torque is required. Indeed, the viscous coupling units
simply cannot satisfy high torque demands when the vehicle is offroad. AWD vehicles tend to be more 'car' like than obvious offroaders.
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Alan Swanson is obviously a 4wd guy!
I think the Audi engineers would rightfully disagree with the last paragragh. Unless he wrote this 30 years ago he's obviously not familiar with
Audi's Torsen Diff system, or 'Quattro' as most know it as. This is the same system which has taken Audi to victory in the world rally
championship, Pikes Peak, English, German, Australian touring car championships. The UR Quattro was banned from competing in the WRC because it was
too good, same for world touring car championships. Fragile? Hardly!
For shits & giggles youtube some of Audi's Quattro race & rally cars.
I think a better definition is; 4wd enables vehicles to go offroad, at the cost of driving like a pig on sealed roads, AWD enables vehicles to go
offroad with speed, and stick to any road surface like shit to a blanket.
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I have no clue to if he's a 4wd bloke or not. No idea if he knows his shit or not. Do i care if he does? Not a care in the world. just posted up
what i happened to be reading in the reviews in cars guide. just a few minutes before ollies question was asked and thought it may help him.
But I'm glad you have been able to clear the subject up for us all cheers.
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I'm sorry I've offended you, I didn't realise I wasn't entitled to an opinion. I thought this was a forum for discussions, opinions and debate on
car related subjects? At least it's my opinion, written with thought, and not rehashed from somewhere else.
For someone who doesn't care about whether this guy know his shit or not, you've certainly got yourself worked up.... Chill out mate, It's just my
opinion that 4wd's are good for rock crawling and not much else, that's why I'm writing here and not on a Landcruiser or Patrol or Jeep forum. I
thought that's what the original question was asking, for opinions on the differences, I decided to give mine. But wtf would I know....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZn43cclGwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKyLxxM41Zw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyYT-YHk5ZY
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 helbus
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 05:53 PM |
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A 4WD could drive over the top of an AWD. But only if the 4WD could catch the AWD
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amazeer
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 07:43 PM |
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baaah. If its all wheel drive and it has 4 wheels then its 4 wheel drive. Trying to put them into different boxes is just a marketing exercise.
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waveman1500
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 08:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by amazeer
baaah. If its all wheel drive and it has 4 wheels then its 4 wheel drive. Trying to put them into different boxes is just a marketing exercise.
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This man speaks the truth! "All wheel drive" and "four wheel drive" are both just marketing labels. By convention, the AWD label tends to be
applied to more road-oriented systems, but you'd be equally correct calling any system AWD or 4WD as long as it has the ability to drive all four
wheels. As mentioned in other comments above, there are many different 4wd system configurations, both permanent and part-time, locking, limited slip
and open. A four wheel drive system can sometimes be as simple as two axles permanently locked together, with no centre differential or viscous
coupling, which was sometimes used on military vehicles. These systems can't be driven on hard surfaces such as sealed roads as the lack of wheel
slip will damage the drivetrain. At the other end of the spectrum you can have fully computer controlled systems with three limited slip
differentials, which can divert power to any of the four wheels in any proportion, as seen in some modern high-performance cars.
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pete wood
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 10:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by amazeer
baaah. If its all wheel drive and it has 4 wheels then its 4 wheel drive. Trying to put them into different boxes is just a marketing exercise.
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+1
4 wheel + awd = 4wd.
Serious offroad trucks have lockable diffs. Street cars don't usually. That said there are some fancy locking diff things that happen in EVOs, GTrs
and WRXs and they are street cars mostly.
BTW, For a purely street run around car with ABS and traction control, its a waste and a fuel suck.
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Ben386
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 10:21 PM |
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Awsome Audi vids!
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Ben386
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 10:22 PM |
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Awsome Audi vids!
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VDUBXTC
A.k.a.: Jace
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| posted on May 13th, 2011 at 11:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by DOKA Dave
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
| Quote: | Originally
posted by DOKA Dave
| Quote: | Originally
posted by VDUBXTC
As described by Alan Swanson
The AWD system is less effective and more fragile than the 4WD system in a situation where high torque is required. Indeed, the viscous coupling units
simply cannot satisfy high torque demands when the vehicle is offroad. AWD vehicles tend to be more 'car' like than obvious offroaders.
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Alan Swanson is obviously a 4wd guy!
I think the Audi engineers would rightfully disagree with the last paragragh. Unless he wrote this 30 years ago he's obviously not familiar with
Audi's Torsen Diff system, or 'Quattro' as most know it as. This is the same system which has taken Audi to victory in the world rally
championship, Pikes Peak, English, German, Australian touring car championships. The UR Quattro was banned from competing in the WRC because it was
too good, same for world touring car championships. Fragile? Hardly!
For shits & giggles youtube some of Audi's Quattro race & rally cars.
I think a better definition is; 4wd enables vehicles to go offroad, at the cost of driving like a pig on sealed roads, AWD enables vehicles to go
offroad with speed, and stick to any road surface like shit to a blanket.
|
I have no clue to if he's a 4wd bloke or not. No idea if he knows his shit or not. Do i care if he does? Not a care in the world. just posted up
what i happened to be reading in the reviews in cars guide. just a few minutes before ollies question was asked and thought it may help him.
But I'm glad you have been able to clear the subject up for us all cheers.
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I'm sorry I've offended you, I didn't realise I wasn't entitled to an opinion. I thought this was a forum for discussions, opinions and debate on
car related subjects? At least it's my opinion, written with thought, and not rehashed from somewhere else.
For someone who doesn't care about whether this guy know his shit or not, you've certainly got yourself worked up.... Chill out mate, It's just my
opinion that 4wd's are good for rock crawling and not much else, that's why I'm writing here and not on a Landcruiser or Patrol or Jeep forum. I
thought that's what the original question was asking, for opinions on the differences, I decided to give mine. But wtf would I know....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZn43cclGwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKyLxxM41Zw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyYT-YHk5ZY
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Offended me? how have you offended me? Worked up? why am i worked
up?. I'm now confused, but not worked up. I merely stated
that it didn't interest me in any way regarding the subject or if the bloke was full of shit or not. As i said i just posted something in which i
just read and thought it may of been of interest to ollie. I'm Not getting worked up over anything bud. I even said that i was glad you were able to
clear that up.
But reading your response makes me think if anyone needs a chill pill at the moment it's you. I'm calm as a cucumber this end. Anyways I'm sorry if
what i had written comes across as an attack at you, It wasn't intended to. anyways moving on ay. cheers
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SuperOwen
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 12:29 AM |
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I was talking about this with the offroad nutter at work last week. The common consensus is that a lockable centre diff is what makes it a real (ie
offroad creek crawling etc) 4wd.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 09:24 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Ben386
The viscous coupling set up on a T25 is an AWD system(like Quatro).A syncro with a decoupler becomes selectable AWD as it can be driven in 2WD then
switched to AWD on the fly.(with speed).
If someone was to replace their VC with a solid shaft,then there Syncro would become 4WD and couldnt be driven on pavement whilst decoupler was
coupled.
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Hmmmm.....not correct. A T25 Syncro is a FULL TIME 4WD,the coupling only changes the amount of torque/power applied to the front differential. To
determin the difference between AWD and 4WD - there IS a big difference- is easy....jack up one back wheel,the car will not drive off if it is a AWD
vehicle, a true 4WD vehicle will drive off powered by the front wheels...
tssnq.com.au
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 matberry
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 09:33 AM |
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Sorry Mick, but ^^^ that's not correct either. Even a 'true 4wd' won't go anywhere if you jack one wheel off the ground, only one with a locked
center diff will do that.
I'm with the marketing bs being the difference !!!
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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matberry
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 09:36 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
I was talking about this with the offroad nutter at work last week. The common consensus is that a lockable centre diff is what makes it a real (ie
offroad creek crawling etc) 4wd.
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LMAO
My wifes OLD 1st series RAV4 has a locking center diff.....I bet your Landcruiser (insert his actual big lump of a 4wd here) warrior won't like that
!!!!
EDIT: thinking about this I have to chuckle, I towed out a very stuck Prado with that little Rav, offroad capability is primarily up to the nut behind
the wheel......
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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SuperOwen
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 10:22 AM |
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Yeah, big old boxy 70 or 80 series landcruiser 
I remember watching the boss "test" the 4wd system on the audi TT quattro system in the workshop. Dump the clutch and the front wheels would do
about a full revolution from memory before the haldex unit would send some power to the back and it would drive off.
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 01:12 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Sorry Mick, but ^^^ that's not correct either. Even a 'true 4wd' won't go anywhere if you jack one wheel off the ground, only one with a locked
center diff will do that.
I'm with the marketing bs being the difference !!!
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Rubbish...........a T3 Syncro will pull itself around the workshop.Its one of the tests to see if the VC is functioning,and yes I've done it numerous
times.When i was working with Mitsubishi (a couple of years ago now) they had the Mitsubishi teks from O/S come to the workshop and explain as well as
demonstrate the differences between 4WD and AWD. Like i stated earlier the most common test at the time, as a demonstration, was to lift one rear
wheel off the ground and the car would not move. If the vehicle being looked at was a 4WD (engaged) the opposing diff would have drive supplied when
the rear was lifted,the front would move the vehicle. My main reference was in respect to the T3 Syncro being labeled as an AWD vehicle,when in FACT
it is a CONSTANT 4WD vehicle.There is a big difference.......power is always supplied to the front and rear diffs. The VC only controlls how much is
distributed to the front diff (minimum 5% to 100% in standard spec VC). As the T3 Syncro ALWAYS has power to both diffs(unless fitted with a
decoupler) it is constant 4WD,not AWD...... ANY other 4WD vehicle
will do the same,but OBVIOUSLY you would have to make sure it was in 4WD.........
tssnq.com.au
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SuperOwen
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 01:38 PM |
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http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html
Notice down the bottom the T3 gets an honorable exception
At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you've got 4,2,1WD or have to push the car, unless you have enough ground clearance the car wont go very
far off road!!
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 02:46 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SuperOwen
http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/awd.html
Notice down the bottom the T3 gets an honorable exception
At the end of the day it doesn't matter if you've got 4,2,1WD or have to push the car, unless you have enough ground clearance the car wont go very
far off road!!
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"An honorable exception from the rule "AWD is almost useless beyond pavement" are VW Sycro Vangon. Yes they have viscous couplings to distribute
torque front/rear - but they have a granny low first gear and they have axle diff locks (real diff locks!). So, they are much more capable than most
folks think. "
Haha...that made me laugh. What he states is actually incorrect for the T3....it doesn't use viscious couplings to controll the torque from front to
rear...the rear always has full power available,the front has SOME available ALL THE TIME and the VC mearly increases it to suit..It will engage from
around 5% (always ON)power to 100% in less than 1/4 of a wheel rotation. He is right about the diff locks though....one of my vans has factory front
and rear lockers...I think you might find he refers to the later model vehicles.....T3"s are 4WD. In the end,as you say you still need ground
clearance...which the T3's have plenty of...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX1iiqgkILQ
Try this with an AWD....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBuHRK71al8&feature=related
and..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2CHuxE228&feature=related
some text..."Syncros models were manufactured in limited numbers from 1985 through 1992, with the four wheel drive system added by Steyr-Daimler-Puch
works in Graz, Austria. With a short wheelbase and 48/52 front/rear weight distribution."
He refers to Auto's in the page you posted.....All T3 Syncros were manual.
tssnq.com.au
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MickH
A.k.a.: Michael Hutchinson
Bishop of Volkswagenism
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 02:58 PM |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU6zEO6Z2ZA
Thats funny.....
tssnq.com.au
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grinderman
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 05:09 PM |
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The new VW AMAROK has a choice between 2WD, full time 4WD, or part time 4WD with low-range. All available with rear diff lock. Something for
everyone........
I was under the impression that an AWD normally receives its power to either the front wheels ( ie; vw transporter,honda crv ) or rear wheels ( ie;
ford territory ) UNTIL WHEEL SLIP IS DETECTED then the power is sent electronically or mechanically (syncro) to the opposite diff. A cross axle diff
lock is one of the most important off-road devices whether in a 2WD AWD or 4WD. I have experienced bogged traditional 4wds (
cruiser,patrol,landrover) its the same old story one front wheel spinning, one rear wheel spinning and going nowhere...............just to confuse
everyone further some 4WD owners tell you their beast has a diff lock but it usually is a CENTRE diff lock not a CROSS AXLE diff lock...............
ohhh it just goes on and on and on.............
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Ben386
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| posted on May 14th, 2011 at 06:54 PM |
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Hmmmm.....not correct. A T25 Syncro is a FULL TIME 4WD,the coupling only changes the amount of torque/power applied to the front differential. To
determin the difference between AWD and 4WD - there IS a big difference- is easy....jack up one back wheel,the car will not drive off if it is a AWD
vehicle, a true 4WD vehicle will drive off powered by the front wheels...
If a VC has gone aggressive then it will drive the front wheels.If it is functioning properly and there is no difference in rear and front wheel speed
then there should be no torque applied to the front,Is this not correct?
Most VCs go aggressive causing driveline damage during tight pavement turning.If a decoupler is fitted then you can decouple whilst turning so you
dont do damage.
I know other things will play a factor in this,tyre wear,road camber etc which makes the front drive.
Some people opt to replace their aggressive or passive VC with a solid shaft.You then definatley need a decoupler and cannot drive on the pavement
whilst all four wheels are driving.I would consider this as a 4WD vehicle.
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