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 Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on October 21st, 2011 at 10:35 AM |
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Eccentric camber nut, forward compared to rearward
HI Guys,
those of you that have played with your camber adjustment, obviously moving it outward as far as possible gives you the greatest negative camber, but
what happens when you move forward in rotation or rearward in rotation. Can you help me understand what is going on with the wheel.
I have bent top arms, BJ, extra eccentric camber adjusters and looks like 4-5* neg camber at the widest adjustment.
Thanks
PS if anyone has set their own wheel alignment at home that would be helpful info.
Cheers
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 21st, 2011 at 04:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
HI Guys,
those of you that have played with your camber adjustment, obviously moving it outward as far as possible gives you the greatest negative camber, but
what happens when you move forward in rotation or rearward in rotation. Can you help me understand what is going on with the wheel.
I have bent top arms, BJ, extra eccentric camber adjusters and looks like 4-5* neg camber at the widest adjustment.
Thanks
PS if anyone has set their own wheel alignment at home that would be helpful info.
Cheers
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Hi
the camber adjusters move the wheel in and out at the top
as You know..
its odd [to Me] that these are ..
fitted in the same spot.. with the mark at the front...
so, they are made to be fitted in one position only...
as if the adjuster if adjusted differently the track also changes
[distance between wheels][and that sides wheelbase]
its quite easy to see how they work by turning the adjuster while looking at the top of the tyre or side of wheel
You will see the wheel moving in & out...
I have another front end with adjusters to fit to My beetle
and I've had the extra camber adjusters for many years...
as I have positive camber on one side and negative on the other side.. hopefully the new front end will fix My camber problems..
cheers
Lee
PS: I wrote this an hour or so ago.. Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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68AutoBug
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 posted on October 21st, 2011 at 04:55 PM |
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I didn't answer Your question
When You move the adjuster so the mark is at the rear
the ball joint moves about 10mm more to the FRONT....
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 21st, 2011 at 05:17 PM |
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once You get the camber fixed up...
to adjust the front wheels...
put a white mark in the center [approx of the tyres] at the bottom
move the wheel until the tyre mark is at the front of the car
and measure with a tape measure...
or preferably with a piece of metal or wood with a measurement on it..
or a screw in either end.... ??
turn the wheels so they can be measured at the marks with the wheels facing rearwards as far as You can go...
then do the same at the front... Now- You need to undo the tie rod ends and turn them to adjust the toe in..
this is the tricky bit...
front
l ---------------------------- l marks on tyres
l -----------------------------l
rear
check measurement on the front then the rear
the front has a toe in of a few mms..
I cannot find the measurement... have it written somewhere?
I measured the tie rods off another car...
the short one is 92mm
and the long one is 801mm
whether this is correct I don't know...
after driving My beetle 6 years without a wheel alignment I think I will have it done professionally when I fit My front end..
LEE
Hope this helps...
I did it by eyesight once... ended up with 2 inches 50mm of toe in... lol
from centre of tie rod to the other
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on October 21st, 2011 at 10:19 PM |
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Sorry lee but not what i am looking for
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cnfabo
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| posted on October 21st, 2011 at 11:39 PM |
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just changing the topic a lil. but i got my top arms bent 6mm and can only get about 2.9 deg camber even with the extra eccentric adjuster....cant
figure out why its maxing out as i should be able to get more then that....
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 07:38 AM |
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Moving the ball-joint 'in or out', will alter the camber.
Moving the ball-joint 'backwards or forwards', will alter the caster.
Signed,
Eccentric Camber Nut
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 09:49 AM |
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Thats what im looking for Happy daze, cheers.
So moving the hole forward will move the castor to the rear, and moving the hole rarward will move the castor forward, right.
If i am getting my front end aligned what is better forward or rearwad rotation...... i am lowered and have 2 castor shims per side, (does it really
just depend on what settings i am looking for)
(i'm sure the alignment guy wont have much idea about beetles, he didnt last car)
Thanks
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ian.mezz
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 10:13 AM |
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+ caster
-camber
you have + caster so the front wheel sits forward like on a motor bike push bike etc,
If - the wheels sit back like on a shopping trolly and the car handles like a shopping trolley 
- camber like a v8 race car , but to much will wear the inside of the trye.
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 matberry
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 10:31 AM |
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Sorry Greg, but the adjuster does not change caster, camber only. The castor is set by the beam angle in the chassis only. The castor as you know, is
the kingpin inclination. In a b/j front end, the kingpin is the ball joint pivots, the adjuster only moves during setup, otherwise all steering
movement is done in the balljoints so no change to castor when adjusting camber.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 10:54 AM |
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Matt, surely the caster angle changes when the ball joint is moved backwards or forwards, just as the camber angle changes when the ball joint is
moved in or out?
King-pin inclination and caster angle are entirely different animals.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 12:11 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
I didn't answer Your question
When You move the adjuster so the mark is at the rear
the ball joint moves about 10mm more to the FRONT....
Lee
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[size=4]which is moving the CASTOR forwards about 10mm
steering will be better at speed...
LEE[/size]
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 12:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
Matt, surely the caster angle changes when the ball joint is moved backwards or forwards, just as the camber angle changes when the ball joint is
moved in or out?
King-pin inclination and caster angle are entirely different animals.
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Yes Greg
I never really put it all together in My head before..
but You can change Castor and Camber with the adjusters
as the ball joints move in/out forwards/backwards
LEE
plus having the adjusters sitting next to me helps...
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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matberry
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 03:05 PM |
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Sorry guy's, your wrong. The ball joint is the suspension pivot and the steering pivot. The camber eccentric positions the stub relative to the road
and is locked there. The castor is the amount of inclination (angle) that the steering pivots on, projected to the road, relative to the center of the
contact patch of rubber on the road. More caster is moving the line of steering towards the front of center of the contact patch. More caster means
more self centering like a shopping trolley castor wheel. But moving the camber eccentric does not significantly change the castor as the steering
still turns around the same balljoint pivots.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 03:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
Sorry guy's, your wrong. The ball joint is the suspension pivot and the steering pivot. The camber eccentric positions the stub relative to the road
and is locked there. The castor is the amount of inclination (angle) that the steering pivots on, projected to the road, relative to the center of the
contact patch of rubber on the road. More caster is moving the line of steering towards the front of center of the contact patch. More caster means
more self centering like a shopping trolley castor wheel. But moving the camber eccentric does not significantly change the castor as the steering
still turns around the same balljoint pivots.
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YIKES
steering geometry is complicated...
but I see what You mean...
relative to the contact patch of rubber on the road...
I understand.... NOW..
cheers
Lee
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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vwo60
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 06:56 PM |
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Agree with matt, when you turn the concentric you only move the stub axle inrelationship to the ball joints, the center line through the ball joints
does not change so the castor angle stays the same, only the camber changes
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 07:24 PM |
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Just seeing who was awake. OK, I was wrong about the
caster change. The ball-joint doesn't move, does it! 
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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matberry
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 08:20 PM |
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And Greg, do you really think it has nothing to do with kingpin inclination? It's alright mate, all's forgiven, afterall, it's that late model
stuff, way after your time  .
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 22nd, 2011 at 10:43 PM |
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and that is why they are called Camber adjusters...
LEE
Live and learn... lol
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 06:33 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
And Greg, do you really think it has nothing to do with kingpin inclination? It's alright mate, all's forgiven, afterall, it's that late model
stuff, way after your time .
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Matt, I'm sure you don't need it explained, but for those who are not sure, I'll give it a try:-
King pin inclination is the angle between the king pin and vertical, looking from the FRONT of the car.
Caster angle is the angle between the king pin and vertical, looking from the SIDE of the car.
For non-king pin [ball joints, struts, etc] a line through the centre of the upper and lower pivot points can be substituted.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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68AutoBug
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 11:45 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by HappyDaze
| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
And Greg, do you really think it has nothing to do with kingpin inclination? It's alright mate, all's forgiven, afterall, it's that late model
stuff, way after your time .
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Matt, I'm sure you don't need it explained, but for those who are not sure, I'll give it a try:-
King pin inclination is the angle between the king pin and vertical, looking from the FRONT of the car.
Caster angle is the angle between the king pin and vertical, looking from the SIDE of the car.
For non-king pin [ball joints, struts, etc] a line through the centre of the upper and lower pivot points can be substituted.
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Well put Greg
so king pin inclination is really Camber??
LEE
LEE
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 12:29 PM |
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No Lee, camber is the angle between the WHEEL and vertical [looking from the FRONT of the car. Mostly, camber and king pin inclination are 'tied
together', so that when the camber is altered, the KPI is also altered, but caster remains unchanged. Hope that's clear.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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matberry
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 02:16 PM |
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Thanks Greg, put way better than I could have. There's that legendary experience of yours shining through again  
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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1303Steve
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 03:59 PM |
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Hi
My Bentley manual says to set the notch at the front.
If you set say 1 degrees negative camber with the notch at the front and then did the same 1 degrees negative with the notch at the back you would end
up with the ball joint hole being in a different position, this would affect caster or king pin inclination.
Steve
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HappyDaze
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 05:09 PM |
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I fell for the same trap, Steve. The camber is the
only thing that will be altered by turning the eccentrics.......except, perhaps a small change in the wheelbase?
This is a very interesting thread, in that it has stirred up a few brain cells. Not sure if it has been any help to Aussie Dubbin though.
I'd rather wear a Beetle out by racing it than by polishing it!
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1303Steve
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 05:39 PM |
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Hi
I don't think I got my reasoning across.
Forget about camber for the moment, say the adjuster is fitted first with the notch at the back and then with the notch at the back, the positioning
of the hole for the ball joint will be towards the back with the notch at the front and visa versa with notch at the back, this will affect caster.
If the adjuster is set at full camber, what ever that is it will have no effect on caster, caster will only be affected at at smaller camber
settings.
Steve
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matberry
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 06:34 PM |
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I agree in principal there is a small change in castor if the notch is set rearwards, as the contact patch will move slightly on the ground and as we
know the theoretical kingpin doesn't move, therefore there is a change in castor, BUT, the notch is used essentially to be able to set the pair
alike, and the geometry is designed around this setting being fwd's. I think you'd find the amount of change is not nearly as much as what we get
when shims are used, therefore, set the camber with the notch fwd, then set toe and finally castor with shims, I generally like at least one set of
shims  .
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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Gracey
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 08:21 PM |
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All this talk about eccentric camber adjusters has got me wanting to install the set I just bought.
What is the best/easiest way to remove the camber adjuster from the ball joint??
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matberry
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 08:31 PM |
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A few versions of puller will get it off. in order of preference, a ball joint breaker or pitman arm puller or a 2 or pref 3 leg may work or even easy
to make a custom tool with some tube, steel a bolt and a welder.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Gracey
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| posted on October 23rd, 2011 at 09:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
A few versions of puller will get it off. in order of preference, a ball joint breaker or pitman arm puller or a 2 or pref 3 leg may work or even easy
to make a custom tool with some tube, steel a bolt and a welder.
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Cool, thanks Matt.
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