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Author: Subject:  radiator mounting subi conversion
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posted on March 30th, 2012 at 09:28 PM



Glad to see some responses,

Really would love to see your Kombi in real life next time your on the coast karmann. Drop me a message if your keen. 0415682256
Love the half beetle too! I painted one for my mate a few years back to match his van!

Was going to plumb the filter out of the warm air if I could, get my van out of a field on Monday so can start measuring for that part of the project!

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posted on March 31st, 2012 at 11:55 AM



Karmann141, how often do your fans kick in?
Sweet setup and if it truely works, it's summat to strive for
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posted on March 31st, 2012 at 01:59 PM



Hi ElusiveStranger
The dual radiator setup does work here in Queensland which is a darn site hotter than Kent - spent 2yrs in the UK and have a good friend who lives near Margate.
I'm not the first with this setup. I know someone in Rockhampton (hotter than Brisbane again) who has twin Mk1 Gollf radiators set up in a Bay dual cab engine bay (EJ22) and tows a car trailer in summer with no problems - he has however fitted Bay Kombi side vents down low.
The radiators only run when I am in traffic but only intermittently for literally only a minute at a time. You'll definitely have no problems in the UK.
I will however look at a cold air intake for my pod filter. The critical elements are making sure all the air coming through the side intake vents goes through the radiator and cannot go around it and getting any other heat sources like exhaust out of the engine bay.




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1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
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posted on April 1st, 2012 at 07:30 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by karmann141
The critical elements are making sure all the air coming through the side intake vents goes through the radiator and cannot go around it and getting any other heat sources like exhaust out of the engine bay.


This is spot on. I think this is why your setup works. There also must be some way that the air is being drawn down out of the engine bay that you're not aware of. The most effective setups work not because air is being forced into them, but because the aerodynamics of the car are literally pulling the air through it. All new cars are designed in this way.




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posted on April 1st, 2012 at 11:43 AM



Seeing as there is quite a bit of interest and theories about radiator location and I personally feel this is the best spot, I will conduct some tests during the Easter break as I like hard scientific evidence as to how and why things work.
Hence I get a bit cheesed off when someone makes a blanket statement that 9 out of 10 don't work and they haven't tried it themselves in that particular type of vehicle - Beetles and Kombis are quite different for obvious reasons.
I'll measure engine compartment temperatures and pressures mmH2O & note exactly when fans come on for the following:
1. For current setup
2. Crack open rear engine cover
3. Duct air into the engine bay from under the vehicle
and open to any other suggestions
Always happy to try and improve the system.
Might post data here or start a new thread.




1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
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posted on April 1st, 2012 at 12:40 PM



Anyone would swear I'd run over your first born.
As you and many others have said in this thread the reason yours works is you have spent the time sealing the rads in so they get maximum air flow drawn through the core not around it.
How the heat is drawn out of the engine bay especially at low speeds would be good to know, so will be interesting to see any tests you can do before things starts to cool down.


Alot of watercooled converted Kombis are done on the cheap with very little consideration put into rad mounting especially in the back which is why some of them don't work, note I didn't say none of them work.
I may be a bug owner but I did have exposure to a few EA81/EA82/Astron/Datsun converted Kombis a while back with rear mounted rads, not usually in the side like yours but across the back.
I live in Nimbin/Byron Feral central headquarters, they were all driving poorly maintaned Kombis kept running on the cheap here once not long ago.
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posted on April 1st, 2012 at 05:03 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by karmann141
...I get a bit cheesed off when someone makes a blanket statement that 9 out of 10 don't work and they haven't tried it themselves in that particular type of vehicle...


I can totally understand that. Thing is most of the people on here advocating front/belly systems for kombis have seen all the setups... which is a kind word for some of the abortions people have called "setups". Hack backyarders come on this forum and say, "will this work?" and "I'm having dramas". Experienced people here say, "only if you do X & Y" and then the person gets all toey like we're trying to pick a fight or something.

I trust that your system works. I can see WHY it works. Thing is, and this is a compliment, you're an exception. Most, well, don't work at all. So by and large people like myself advocate a front or belly mounted radiator. It's easier for the inexperienced & stupid... I include myself in those two categories BTW. :blush:




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posted on April 1st, 2012 at 08:05 PM



Well there's what I was trying to say in much more tactfull terms.
Uncle Pete to the rescue again :lol:
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posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 06:29 AM



gotta love that ez30 prices are coming down! would make for a nice bus. Hmmm,



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posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 01:00 PM



Hi karmann141

If your going to do some testing try and film some wool tufts at speed with a go pro or similar around where the hot air is expelled from the engine bay.

If your fans are not coming on at speed your system must be working very well.

Relying on the electric fans coming on at speed is sign that a system needs more thought.

Steve
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posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 10:52 AM



Thanks Steve - you're quite right, if the fans come on at speed then the system needs refining.
I'm going to hook up a dash LED that lights up when the fans come on and measure real time engine bay temps while driving under different conditions.
Will also then direct some cool air from airflow under body at the pod filter. Will try and create an airbox (but space is tight) - if not try your K&N filter.

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1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
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2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on August 27th, 2012 at 09:32 PM



My twin radiator system in the engine bay has now been fine tuned with a set of clear Just Kampers Earz (air intake scoops) and number plate stand-off. Radiator fans now do not come on when driving at any speed and only when stopped in heavy traffic.

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1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on August 28th, 2012 at 08:49 AM



Best way of doing the lights... just hook a 12v LED to the 12V output from the rad relay, take the other leg to ground.
Mine are in the rear cupboard and easily visable via the rear view mirror. I have a green one on the a/c relay (fan is NC) and a red on the main fan.

Job's a good un.

Remember with LEDs, "Long leg, Red" :tu:
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posted on August 28th, 2012 at 09:56 AM



Thanks - I have a green LED on the dash that lights up when the fans run. Was a bit worried after after adding the Earz and number plate standoff that the LED was'nt working as it did not come on once during a 300km trip. Had to stop and leave it idling for quite a while before fans kicked in at abut 95 degrees (Jap spec engine).
System is now very efficient.




1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on August 28th, 2012 at 10:09 AM



Hi

Well done, looks like you have nailed it where others have failed. Your method should be the way to go for other converters.

Steve
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posted on September 9th, 2012 at 07:47 AM



Karmann141

Where is your battery whit this twin rad setup

Tor
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posted on September 9th, 2012 at 04:28 PM



My Subaru conversion is in a 74 Baywindow Camper - so the battery is now located in a battery box under the back seat like a Beetle.



1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on November 9th, 2012 at 10:39 PM



Just a bit of an update for anyone contemplating radiator/s in the engine bay.
Just noticed water temp was sitting on about 5 degrees higher when driving to Warwick and could'nt work out why - thought that it may just have been due to the higher ambient temperature.
Then realised we had the rear quarter window open which deflected the air away from one air intake and radiator. Once closed - temp settled back down. Fans still did not come on at highway speeds.
Guess I'll fit a slider on the drivers side as well.

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1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on November 13th, 2012 at 10:21 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by ian.mezz
i am glad that it works for you , but If i was doing a kombi I would just use one radiator like any other car on the street and keep it simple . to much in that engine bay for me . but that's just me.


one radiator? why?

Porsche use 2 so why not here?

I like the idea of 2 over one for neater and easier to manage install.

I can't see using one big radiator an easy thing to fit anywhere neatly.


^ this suby install example is perfect to show what some proper planning and research and little knowledge can do. Not just make assumption about how something aught to work.




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posted on November 15th, 2012 at 01:20 PM



There appears to be a lot of arm chair mechanic's on the site, the above conversion has worked because it is not a lash up and has been engineered to work with a lot of thought applied to the outcome.
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posted on October 22nd, 2013 at 02:46 AM



Quote:
Originally posted by vwo60
There appears to be a lot of arm chair mechanic's on the site, the above conversion has worked because it is not a lash up and has been engineered to work with a lot of thought applied to the outcome.


Arm chair mechanics are common on every VW site. Its what makes a VW owner....a VW owner. :lol:

Seriously, one of the sad parts of many builds is that they say 'generally' what they did, but don't say or show specifically HOW they did it. For instance on the orange Bus with the Porsche rads....which Porsche Rads? got a part # we can look up? Why did you choose those over the VW Mk1 scirocco style Rads? How did you build your mounts for those rads to mechanically support them. What did you use as a gasket to seal around the rad so that all air is directed to the Rad?

All of this kind of data might make it easier for the cheap dreamers to get a better solution with less skull sweat.

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posted on October 22nd, 2013 at 10:24 AM



Hi

Many builds rely on parts turning up at the right price and then making them fit.

Porsche radiators for example, walk into a Porsche wrecker or dealer and be prepared to blow your budget on just the radiators.

I used a Audi 100/200 radiator in my car because I already owned a Audi 100/200 fan & shroud.

Steve
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posted on October 22nd, 2013 at 10:42 AM



this is how Porsche do it. quite complex actually but it does the job right from cooling aspect.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche-996-997-Carrera/30-WATER-Coo...




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posted on October 22nd, 2013 at 03:39 PM



Hi,

This was not my build thread - but a response to a question on radiator location. This is merely how I installed my radiators, hence no intricate detail.
I'm only to happy to share the finer details if asked.

As Steve said my choice of radiator/s was merely opportunistic - I measured the size of radiator I needed and the Boxster/911 radiators are the perfect size. A full set of 3 came up on eBay at the right price (I only used 2). If one's from a Hyundai fitted I would have used them.

The radiators fit perfectly in the channel which runs along the top of either side of the engine bay. I glued about 10mm thick high density foam rubber to the top and bottom of the radiators and they are self supported in the channel - the radiator hoses keep them in the right location. The original Subaru fans and shrouds fit the radiators almost perfectly (stroke of luck).

Done quite a few thousand km's in it now and the system works very well and with the green LED on the dash that comes on when the fans run, I can keep and accurate track of things.

In winter temp gauge sits on 80 degrees (actually had to remove the Earz) and Summer 85 - 90 degrees. In stop start traffic or after a long climb fans kick in at 95 degrees and run for a max 30sec .

Happy to supply more detailed info if you need it - just ask.




1961 K Ghia - Porsche 5 sp, EJ20T, Brembo's, Dble A arm susp
1974 L Bug - Porsche 944 brakes, Boxster 16's
1974 Bay Camper - EJ20, twin radiators, Boxster 16x7's
Half Beetle trailer with Boxster 16x7's
2011 Tiguan TDI 4Motion
2010 LR Discovery 4 TDV
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posted on October 22nd, 2013 at 06:49 PM



If you want details, send the man an email. We have the technology :lol:,

often you don't have the time to add every detail of your days/weeks/months/years work because you are too busy working on our cars than documenting them.

Nice work karmann! might send you a PM myself when I undertake the same mod next year

Quote:
Originally posted by webwalker
Quote:
Originally posted by vwo60
There appears to be a lot of arm chair mechanic's on the site, the above conversion has worked because it is not a lash up and has been engineered to work with a lot of thought applied to the outcome.


Arm chair mechanics are common on every VW site. Its what makes a VW owner....a VW owner. :lol:

Seriously, one of the sad parts of many builds is that they say 'generally' what they did, but don't say or show specifically HOW they did it. For instance on the orange Bus with the Porsche rads....which Porsche Rads? got a part # we can look up? Why did you choose those over the VW Mk1 scirocco style Rads? How did you build your mounts for those rads to mechanically support them. What did you use as a gasket to seal around the rad so that all air is directed to the Rad?

All of this kind of data might make it easier for the cheap dreamers to get a better solution with less skull sweat.

Marshall
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posted on November 29th, 2013 at 12:15 PM



Hi Guys,

I did a heap of research when putting the radiators in both the beetles and the Kombi and the one thing that is crucial to any cooling set up is pressure. it does not matter how much air you have hitting a radiator if there is not a low pressure created behind it to draw the air through.

Best example is the black plastic tray that sits between the front spoiler and the front end on new cars. its job is to push air past the engine bay thus causing a vacuum and air is subsequently drawn through radiators, a/c components etc. One study took the tray off a wrx and air rushed immediately into the engine bay and caused that much immediate pressure that air was going backwards through the bonnet scoop.

Food for thought.. my bloody radiator on the bug is too big and works too well!

Matt




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posted on November 29th, 2013 at 12:55 PM



yeah, that is how its been done for a long time in front mount rads in cars. you don't even need any significant intake and doesn't even need to be directly in the air steam hitting the car.
The EF/EL faclons are the best example I can think off. The only have a small slot in the bottom of the bumper while the rad is mounted high, indirectly to the intake slot, no grille either

radiators work best in a draw through setup. That is why the fans are also mounted behind the rad.

The same principal makes me wonder if it would posibly work in a rear mounted rad in a notchback with the rad air boxed to the existing fan intake and working in reverse with the outlet being the vent behind the rear window?

In theory yes, in practice this would be hard to test. There is low pressure area behind the rear window where the vent is, I don't know if the engine bay is low or high pressure relative to the vent though? I would assume its higher.




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posted on November 29th, 2013 at 03:41 PM



I will do a type 3 in the future as a notch was my first car.

It will just be nicely placed in that massive space in the front, so much easier than bug or bus.:)

Matt




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posted on November 29th, 2013 at 06:35 PM



what we need to remember is that of you own an old VW you are weird...if you stick another engine in one you are really weird...which is me...i love inventing stuff that makes my kombi work just for me...

this setup i dont reccomend to anyone but it has worked superbly for five years with the heat of a turbo climbing bush tracks in first in a queensland summer..

invent..enjoy..be happy...

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=79781 
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posted on November 29th, 2013 at 08:57 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by boof2332
I will do a type 3 in the future as a notch was my first car.

It will just be nicely placed in that massive space in the front, so much easier than bug or bus.:)

Matt


what space? only if you sacrifice the spare tyre and cut holes.

otherwise its quite hard and space is limited.

I got some ideas for custom front spoiler with integrated intake and twin radiators and air boxes. in front of the beam either side of the spare wheel tub.

its will cost a lot to develop though just to prove the concept though. I am no where near that stage yet.

In a bug its easier because no ones cares if you cut holes in them :lol:

well at least i don't:dork:




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