| [ Total Views: 794 | Total Replies: 25 | Thread Id: 96165 ] |
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 SPRIGGO
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| posted on April 1st, 2012 at 11:59 PM |
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Starter / Fly wheel question
ok here goes...
the motor died in my 71 beetle , so i have a 62 beetle sitting about with a strong 12v later model 1300 twin port in , so i pulled it out yesterday
and slid it into my 71. all is good , runs sweet as a nut , the only problem is when you turn over the starter motor it makes a horrible noise...
are there different starter motors with differnt teeth???
the starter on the 71 is almost new...should i pull the starter out of the 62 and put in the 71 to match up with the fly wheel on the motor i pulled
out?????
Spriggo
(o/o)
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 vw54
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 07:18 AM |
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yes there are different amount of teeth both on the flywheel and starter gear for 6v and 12v
you will buggar the flywheel if you leave the 6V starter in place
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vwo60
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 07:29 AM |
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Was the 62 converted to 12 volts along with a 12 volt starter motor. you could fit the starter from the early car if the gearbox has the correct bush
fitted
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grumble
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 08:28 AM |
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You may have to pull the motor again and swap flywheels,if the other car had a 12v starter it would be the same as on your 71.The early starter had a
bigger pinion shaft. The other option is to get an auto electrician to fit the later pinion to the later starter. Flywheel swap is the best option.
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SPRIGGO
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:04 AM |
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thanks guys.....thanks for all the advice..
yeah swapping the fly wheel i see is my best option....
oh well ..something to do over easter 
Spriggo
(o/o)
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 10:03 AM |
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If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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grumble
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 11:37 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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Just keep crunching the ring gear until it destroys either the starter or flywheel and then do it.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 12:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by grumble
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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Just keep crunching the ring gear until it destroys either the starter or flywheel and then do it.
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1300 Twin port 12volt ring gear is the same as a 1500/1600 12volt ring gear..............If it was an early 1300 6volt then thats a different story,
but as stated in the first post its a late model 1300TP.
A 1300 TP should have no problems with being fitted to a 71 beetle......unless its been fitted with the early "O" ring 6volt (200mm clutch) flywheel
from a type 3.
Why would you change the flywheel Grumble ??
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SPRIGGO
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 04:15 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
| Quote: | Originally
posted by grumble
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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Just keep crunching the ring gear until it destroys either the starter or flywheel and then do it.
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1300 Twin port 12volt ring gear is the same as a 1500/1600 12volt ring gear..............If it was an early 1300 6volt then thats a different story,
but as stated in the first post its a late model 1300TP.
A 1300 TP should have no problems with being fitted to a 71 beetle......unless its been fitted with the early "O" ring 6volt (200mm clutch) flywheel
from a type 3.
Why would you change the flywheel Grumble ??
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that could be the exact issue there craig...
the clutch that was in there is a 200mm with the early centre ring on the pressure plate..the clutch on the 71 is a 180mm.
i have no idea on the history of the 62 but i do know it was converted a long time ago.my thoughts are if i change to the original fly wheel and
clutch, i know its all matched to the 71 starter. and while im at it i can put a new bush in the bell housing to make sure ?????
whats your thoughts???
(o/o)
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Joel
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 05:31 PM |
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You may find because it was fitted to the 62 that its a 6 volt flywheel modified to fit the 12 volt crank so the original 6 volt gearbox and starter
can left alone, that's probably why it's not meshing with the Sbug starter.
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vwo60
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 05:32 PM |
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why can't you use the starter of the early car by changing the bush in the gear box
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Craig Torrens
A.k.a.: Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 06:05 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by SPRIGGO
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
| Quote: | Originally
posted by grumble
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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Just keep crunching the ring gear until it destroys either the starter or flywheel and then do it.
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1300 Twin port 12volt ring gear is the same as a 1500/1600 12volt ring gear..............If it was an early 1300 6volt then thats a different story,
but as stated in the first post its a late model 1300TP.
A 1300 TP should have no problems with being fitted to a 71 beetle......unless its been fitted with the early "O" ring 6volt (200mm clutch) flywheel
from a type 3.
Why would you change the flywheel Grumble ??
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that could be the exact issue there craig...
the clutch that was in there is a 200mm with the early centre ring on the pressure plate..the clutch on the 71 is a 180mm.
i have no idea on the history of the 62 but i do know it was converted a long time ago.my thoughts are if i change to the original fly wheel and
clutch, i know its all matched to the 71 starter. and while im at it i can put a new bush in the bell housing to make sure ?????
whats your thoughts???
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So the 1300tp from the 62 has a 200mm clutch, and the motor you took out of the 71 had a 180mm clutch....is that correct?
all 12volt flywheels have a 200mm clutch. All 6volt (except the early type 3 with the 200mm clutch) have a 180mm clutch. SO, if your motor that came
out of the 71 beetle had a 180mm clutch then it must have been a 6volt motor.........Maybe the 71 has a 6volt starter in it ??
Did the starter motor crank over really fast in the 71 ?
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68AutoBug
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 07:32 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
why can't you use the starter of the early car by changing the bush in the gear box
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the 6 volt starter and 12 volt starter have a different number of teeth
so they don't mesh correctly with the ring gear
and if the engine is hard to start the ring gear will wear away...
You can get the bushes for both or the early/late mod bush.
hole be different?? but they can both be bushed OK...
LEE
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Joel
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 08:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
all 12volt flywheels have a 200mm clutch.
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Nah, just to throw a spanner in the works, the 70s 1300 twin port engines have a 180mm flywheel and clutch but with 12 volt ring gear.
I got a few of them kicking around still.
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grumble
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 08:48 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
| Quote: | Originally
posted by grumble
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
If its a later 12v 1300TP, and you're fitting it into a 71 12v beetle then you shouldn't have to swap a flywheel at all.
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Just keep crunching the ring gear until it destroys either the starter or flywheel and then do it.
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1300 Twin port 12volt ring gear is the same as a 1500/1600 12volt ring gear..............If it was an early 1300 6volt then thats a different story,
but as stated in the first post its a late model 1300TP.
A 1300 TP should have no problems with being fitted to a 71 beetle......unless its been fitted with the early "O" ring 6volt (200mm clutch) flywheel
from a type 3.
Why would you change the flywheel Grumble ??
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As in the original post there is a starter or flywheel problem,the logical thing is to check the number of flywheel teeth because over the years no
one knows what is actually fitted. My 61 6v Ghia has a 200mm clutch and the original starter so I am assuming that the 62 had a similar unit,the
vehicle has been converted to 12v and has retained the original starter with a 200mm 6v flywheel.Obviously the 71 has a 12v starter and flywheel to
suit.There is only one way to find out and that is to count the teeth and this can be done by removing the starter and counting or pulling the motor
and counting them or burying your head in the sand denying there is a problem and keep using it until it destroys itself and then saying " oh sh.t"
he was wrong.
my last word on the subject.
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Craig Torrens
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
all 12volt flywheels have a 200mm clutch.
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Nah, just to throw a spanner in the works, the 70s 1300 twin port engines have a 180mm flywheel and clutch but with 12 volt ring gear.
I got a few of them kicking around still.
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haha....Grumble is having a grumble !!!
No one is denying there's a problem, its just about establish the correct way to fix it.
Interesting re the 180mm clutch Joel as my 74 (original) 1300TP has a 200mm clutch....go figure there's a new one fo me ! !
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vwo60
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:13 PM |
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Remove the starter from the early car that originally worked with the 1300 engine and fit it to the later car , a change of starter bush in the gear
box if required would complete the installation, this is as you suggested in your original post.
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Joel
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:19 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Craig Torrens
Interesting re the 180mm clutch Joel as my 74 (original) 1300TP has a 200mm clutch....go figure there's a new one fo me ! !
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Could it have had a flywheel swap?
Just I've had a 72 AB 1300 and 74 AR 1300, both very original cars and both had 12volt with the 180mm clutches.
I'm sure i even still have the flywheel and clutch off atleast one of them.
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 matberry
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:21 PM |
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Beware if swapping flywheels...reset crankshaft end float.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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grumble
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| posted on April 2nd, 2012 at 09:30 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
Remove the starter from the early car that originally worked with the 1300 engine and fit it to the later car , a change of starter bush in the gear
box if required would complete the installation, this is as you suggested in your original post.
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OK Craig it was my second last word. vw60 how are you going to fit the large starter shaft into the smaller bush?
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 06:17 AM |
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vw54
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 07:10 AM |
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it would be cheaper in the long run to get the origional starter over hauled or buy a S/H one
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SPRIGGO
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 01:41 PM |
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Ok lost of Interesting replies here.
it seem i have a 6v fly wheel on the later twin port motor. this seem to be the only thing that makes sense to me. i have ordered a 6v to 12v bell
housing bush and a new 12v bush just in case. i have also ordered fly wheel locking tool as a worst case senario i can pul the 12v fly wheel the motor
that came out and refit to the new motor which will match it up to the 12v starter. this has to be my problem....nothing else makes sense .
also for ref as mentioned above, with many years of playing with VW's mainly post 68 i have come across many many 200mm and many many 180mm fly
wheels too on various motors from various years , but having never really played with early stuff i wasnt aware of fly wheel differences .
you live and learn i suppose..
i'll keep you updated of the final out come.
Thanks for all the Advice.
Spriggo
(o/o)
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vwo60
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 02:28 PM |
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No Grumbles the big shaft won't fit into the small bush, As i have said in my previous post just change the bush, just change the
bush and fit the earlier starter, i run a 6 volt starter for years with no problems.
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SPRIGGO
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 03:01 PM |
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all these post's about putting your big shafts into a small bush is getting confusing
(o/o)
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Matt Ryan
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| posted on April 3rd, 2012 at 08:53 PM |
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I was running a 6volt starter on a 180mm 6v flywheel for a while (system converted to 12v and a 12v solenoid off an early holden)
It was a great set up, motor got going in the time it takes to blink. No chewing of ring gear because the holden solenoid threw the pinion gear at the
ring gear at a much slower speed. Once the gears were engaged the 6v starter spun the engine like buggery.
Then I did a gearbox change, 1500 box with 12 volt bush. I didn't like the idea of the conversion bush with the 6v inside diameter and the 12v
outside. The wall of the bush was too thin for my liking and I thought I would end up having to change it too often.
Instead I pulled the 6v starter apart and had the armature end machined to match a new 12v bush. Didn't cost much and I was able to fully recondition
the starter in the process.
That particular flywheel should never have worked on my 1300tp as it had no O ring. But somehow it did manage to work for years without pissing oil
everywhere. It had been on the car when I bought it. I later swapped it for a 180mm 12v ring gear as per original and had to put a stock 12v starter
in.
Just goes to show there are lots of combinations out there.
Regards,
Matt.
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