| [ Total Views: 1352 | Total Replies: 31 | Thread Id: 96258 ] |
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 ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 10:04 PM |
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Performance single port - worth the worry?
I've been reading alot about engines and drooling over some big-bore beetles and it got me thinking...
Could i make something decent out of my motor? i'm no mechanic or even a fiddler ( i think i have 1 set of screwdrivers... a few of them are missing)
and maybe i have a shifter for tightening the bathroom taps 
do you guys think a reasonable mechanic would be able to build something with my motor (1500 sp) with a medium amount of punch for a few grand? i know
i won't be a rocket or anything but it would be different and would make my 45min drive to work alot more enjoyable.
suggestions?
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waveman1500
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 10:14 PM |
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If the bottom end is in good condition, then it's quite easy to change to 1600cc (or bigger bore) cylinders and pistons and then change the heads to
twin-ports. If you're going to build a performance engine, then there is not much point keeping it single-port. For a budget of a few grand you could
get a decent power boost.
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psimitar
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 10:58 PM |
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single port is actually good for low end pull, so handy for a kombi, and with some mild porting can be made to flow close to a DP head.
For a few grand you won't get much as the labour will be the main killer and then finding a mechanic that will do a good job of putting the motor
together so it lasts.
to go bigger than a 1641 requires the case to be machined plus from what I've heard the 1500 case is not very strong when it comes to modifying but
great for a reliable std motor.
Um, std 1600 is 50bhp and 1500 is 43bhp i think. So for a few grand you aren't gonna get all that much when you NEED twin carbs, manifolds and a
decent exhaust.
By all means you can bolt these things onto the 1500 for an extra 10-15bhp maybe but if what I've found out about the 1500 is true then its a bad
engine to modify mainly due to pulling head studs.
madness is in the eye of the beholder  |
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cb john
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 11:11 PM |
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I'm pretty sure that there will be a lot of opponents, but you can get a lot more of power from SP engine...you start with the good carby/ies and
exhaust...that would make a noticeable difference...keeping the rest of the engine standard
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Governor
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 11:49 PM |
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You might find that single port engines have smaller oil galleries, this is not really recommended if you want a performance engine.
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cb john
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| posted on April 6th, 2012 at 11:57 PM |
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He won't...and what is a performance engine anyway?
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 10:14 AM |
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don't really need a balls out performance motor. i have a moto bike to fill the need for speed (ktm 690 duke R) . i drive to ipswich every day and back from brisbane to goto work (i'm a crazy ppl nurse at ipswich
hospital). i'd just like something with a little more guts to make the trip a little nicer. also maybe when/if i get time off to go to a meet, people
will look at it and say "hey that's neat".
i see on alot of turnkey dp engine websites they use dual oil relief cases? the motor i need doesn't need that i think - wanna keep an sp in there
for something a lil different. i'm not going to drag it ( maybe take it to the strip once for shits and giggles). just drive it to work and back
everyday and club meetings / events.
i was thinking dual 34's, an exhaust, better oil punp, mini sump, electronic ignition and maybe some rockers. MAYBE a different cam and balanced
crank? that's if there's nothing wrong with the case i suppose
in my mind it sounds cool... but then i am no mechanic, this is me first beetle and i really have no idea what i'm doing
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Joel
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 12:36 PM |
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It amazes me how many people under estimate the single port engine.
The reason you don't see alot of performance ones is mainly the lack of carb choice.
There's bugger all power difference between a 1600 single port and a 1600 twin port.
My best mates sisters first bug was a 67 with a 1600 single port in it.
Their VW mechanic built the engine back in the 80s and wouldn't tell us what he'd done to it but it went harder than any stock 1600 twin port.
It's really got me f'ked how because it still had a 1300 28pict carb on it.
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Sides
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 01:05 PM |
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Really like this thread - helps in my thinking about what to do engine wise in my KG... I really want that old-skool look to it, but not be the
slowest car on the road. Bigger capacity, a set of dual carbs, cam and a bit more compression and a decent exhaust (Abarth replica or
VintageSpeed).
A mech-eng friend of mine used to work for DoD and was involved in testing things coming from suppliers... including the VW industrial motors the Army
used to buy. They were just 1200 single ports which were engine dyno'd on delivery - they HAD to be between 40 and 45 hp or they weren't
accepted.
He said most were spot on at 42 or 43 hp, but every now and then a "freak" engine would come through with a lot more power and it would be
rejected.
He managed to get hold of one of the "freaks" somehow... which engine dyno'd at 60 something hp, and threw it in his early 60's beetle... said it
was A LOT of fun over stock !!!
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psimitar
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 03:41 PM |
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I'm certain you can get weber 34ICT manifolds for a SP. Try SSP in the UK or CIP1 in USA. Maybe an Oz importer but the other countries have really
good websites for you to do your research with.
One of the major ways to get horsepower from any engine is making it breathe better in and out. Having the heads even DIY ported can give anywhere
from a 5-10% power increase. With some twin carbs and single quietpack exhaust she'll definately be far more nippy.
Personally I'd keep the std vacuum dizzy to work off one of the ICT's and a petronix or the likes to get rid of the condenser and points.
My 1600DP with ICTs and quiet pack surprised many modern 1600 cars off the lights
YOu can also get ratio rockers but 1.25 would be the max cos 1.4's require more setting up of the valve train.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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mactaylor
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 04:30 PM |
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little turbo sounds good. t2, blow thru weber, volvo 240t dizzy can. mmmmm sounds familiar!
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Stanley
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 05:26 PM |
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You'd be better going TP for many reasons........however there's bragging rights having a stout SP that you built yourself.
Talk to Col about SPs here is a fan
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 7th, 2012 at 11:38 PM |
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psimitar: i've seen ads for webber and solex ( aren't these webbers too?) dual 34s for SPs:
http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2891
http://www.vwparts.net/CB3284.html
not sure about the "quiet" pack mufflers though lol ... i like to let my neighbourhood know when i'm coming home
mactaylor: aren't turbos a little temperamental? i had a 355hp R32 and it was always giving me grief :/ aircooled and naturally aspirated this time
'round me thinks
all the work on my car is done at custom veedub on the nth side of brisbane. there is a guy out near ipswich which builds motors too who i might go
have a chat with aswell. just a little more dreaming till i save up enough $$. if i didn't need to eat, pay bills, buy nappies and talk about
finances with the missus i would have the money by now. stupid life commitments 
if sp's are torque-ier than dps, wouldn't initial acceleration be better?
i just need enough punch to get up the gentle inclines of the ipswich motorway without slowing down 10mph haha
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psimitar
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 01:25 AM |
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hmmm, I didn't think Solex were in business anymore? Aren't they Bocar carbs now? Worse quality too if this is the case or someones just got a pair
of 34PICTS and whacked on some mainifolds?
Also, check out SSP (performance side of VW Heritage), Machine7 and JustCampers (to name but a few) all in the UK. Reason I say this is you may well
make a good saving on the cost of shipping as getting anything OUT of USA is expensive. I had to pay $55 for Wolfsburgs rewound wiper armature that
only costs $20 odd  Some UK companies do blanket shipping costs
that go up with weight but some (like VW Heritage) only charge for the weight of the parcel by UPS. The Oz dollar is doing very well against the pound
too and I think pricing is similar between USA and UK.
I'm in Brissy too so if you had a spare set of heads I could clean em up with me Dremel
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 11:26 AM |
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Thanks mate! At the moment I only have the 2 on the car and the one attached to my neck I need the car at the moment to ferry myself and the little one around.
What do you do with the dremel? Polish the ports or something?
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psimitar
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 01:44 PM |
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I have a selection of carbide cutting bits so I can grind away lumps in the ports for smoother airflow and then use 80grit flapwheel to smooth the
grinding and remove the original casting flash so you have nice smooth ports but not polished as that causes the fuel to drop out of suspension and
cling to the port walls.
Took me 8hrs in total on my 1200 heads i think. MAybe a bit more.
It's also a good time to see how worn the valve guides are and have the seats 3 angled, as almost all valve cutting tools are 3 angle these days.
Cost me $450 to have new guides and valves fitted to my heads and he did do me a bit of a favour as they took longer than expected as some of the
studs were pigs to get out for new ones to go in
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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cb john
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 08:49 PM |
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Do you flow heads before and after?
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psimitar
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 10:51 PM |
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I'm in the process of making myself a flowbench but when I did the 1200's it was just a case of using a finger to find the bumps and not opeing
things up too much. A typical DIY flow job. Blended the seats into the ports and matched the manifold to the port aperture.
I would have liked to do a before and after but none of the places in Brissy were interested in just testing my heads. They would only do this if they
flowed them
Still what I did shouldn't have lowered flow as I took very little away, didn't enlarge the port and basically just smoothed out the original port
design.
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 8th, 2012 at 11:32 PM |
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sounds very technical
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Snap Crackle Bang
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| posted on April 9th, 2012 at 08:51 AM |
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It's more an art than a science, but there is plenty of experience out there. I remeber the book "How to hotrod VW engines" has a step-by step
procedure for improving single port heads to match the flow of a dual port.
You could whip the heads off, get the mating faces cleaned up (to stop leaks between the barrels and heads) and as a bonus this will raise your
compression. A new barrel and piston kit would be a good idea. For a few hundred dollars you will have a little more than stock power. That can tide
you over while you decide if you want to build a better engine.
Cheers.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on April 9th, 2012 at 07:45 PM |
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OK, so lets get back to basics.
Do up the top end and you increase the pressure on a 40+ year old bottom end. Usually ends in tears.
So start with a new case and put in all new stuff = $$$.
If you want to make improvements on what you have, be subtle.
Try a new Dizzy, Carby, Exhaust, etc.
Or go the whole hog and build a complete new engine.
All or nothing is the message here.
The engine you now have could provide years of service, but it is no good once it goes bang.
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lou0060
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| posted on April 9th, 2012 at 09:32 PM |
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I love these threads cause everyone is right! there is just no right or wrong answer for these questions. I think you're on the right path, keep
asking questions, heaps of them, and then work out how much you want to spend and stick to the budget cause you can throw $10k into an engine if you
want or you can get some modest improvements with $1k. Also, if you only have some screwdrivers spend the first $100 on some basic tools, you'll
only need a metric set of combination spanners from 10mm to 19mm and some other bits and pieces and you can do some of the basics yourself and have
some fun doing it. Plenty of people on here to give you pointers.
I like the idea of a 1500 SP as I have a plan to build something similar for my 63 ragtop as I want to keep the original 1200 look about it. My spec
would be something like'
1600 case / tunnel bored and deburred
balanced and counter weighted crank standard throw
1500 barrels and pistons all weighed and balanced
ported 1500 sp heads with 1.25 rockers (maybe roller rockers??)
mild cam
slightly larger intake and exhaust valves with ss guides suitable for unleaded fuel
high volume oil pump
over run type II Judson
modified mounting to take the 1500 carb with larger jets
matched ports to head/intake manifold
009 dissy
high flow exhaust of some type
slightly lighted flywheel and maybe a type 3 clutch??
Anyway, start with a $ number and then work out what it is you want to achieve in line with the budget and then try it out.
Consider things like bolt on external items versus internal (engine strip down) items.
And if you can find a copy of the "how to hot rod vw engines" or any other 60-70's vw performance books, before all the newer Tp technology hit the
scene then that would also give you some pointers.
looking forward to see what direction you take.
1971 karmann ghia Cabrio - Cruising
1963 beetle Sunroof - gathering dust 
1968 race beetle - twin turbo Subaru - stress relief 
1960 beetle - old school low & slow  |
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 9th, 2012 at 11:44 PM |
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information overload guys! LOVE IT! i never thought that i
would get such a great response soooo many ways of getting results it's
not funny. the bolt on bits seem the way to go first i think. i really wish i had a garage that wasn't full of crap now so i could attempt somethings
on my own. do they have vw mechanics courses or anything out there these days?? how did you guys all learn about this stuff?
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hellbugged
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| posted on April 10th, 2012 at 07:10 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Lucky Phil
OK, so lets get back to basics.
Do up the top end and you increase the pressure on a 40+ year old bottom end. Usually ends in tears.
So start with a new case and put in all new stuff = $$$.
If you want to make improvements on what you have, be subtle.
Try a new Dizzy, Carby, Exhaust, etc.
Or go the whole hog and build a complete new engine.
All or nothing is the message here.
The engine you now have could provide years of service, but it is no good once it goes bang.
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psimitar
Son of Jim - Creator of Good
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| posted on April 10th, 2012 at 02:20 PM |
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Yea, shoulda said to be aware of how old the bottom end is. Sorry.
Start with the bolt on bits and DON'T get a 009, PLEASE DON'T, and see how you go. Start collecting parts to make an engine whilst you are running
around. This way you can make a nice solid motor and learn to play yourself. Even do some DIY porting on the heads. Then once she's ready you can
slot her in and sway the carbs and exhuast
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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ClockworkMonkey
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| posted on April 10th, 2012 at 11:28 PM |
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what's wrong with a 009?
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on April 11th, 2012 at 12:11 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ClockworkMonkey
what's wrong with a 009?
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009s are great on a stationary engine or a racing engine at HIGH revs.
For Us ordinary folk the 009 is cheap.....
that is the good part,,,lol
I replaced mine with a SVDa aircoole.net distributor with pertronix kit
My car goes 100 times better then before..
the vacuum really worked great advancing to 44 degrees BTDS
EXCELLENT.... driveability is excellent
:ee in Australia
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- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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Joel
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| posted on April 11th, 2012 at 11:25 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by ClockworkMonkey
what's wrong with a 009?
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Funny, I got a text from a freind on Sunday asking why 009s are so common if they are so shit?
It's cos they are sold everwhere and very cheap being so simple.
We are spoilt with choices for ignition systems now but it's been 009 or nothing uptil recently as there hasn't been a cheap replacement vac advance
available and newbies believed all the hype that they are some great power upgrade item...
As Lee said they are designed for VW stationary industrial engines that only have to idle or run full throttle and real early split Kombis had a
similar model 010 dissy.
009 can only sense revs, so work fine on industrial engines and early underpowered splits which only had to idle or drive flat bicky to get anwhere.
Vac advance dissys can sense the engines load as well so you get a much smoother transition and economy with an engine not having to be pushed as
hard.
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psimitar
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| posted on April 11th, 2012 at 12:11 PM |
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also, the quality of new ))('s is completely shite compared to the original 009's of the 70-80's.
Even so, for a road engine they are just plain crap. Even a twin carb can be made to use the vac dizzy properly and give much better drivability. A
lot of people are lazy when they get twin carbs and can't be arsed doing the job properly or have been told the 009 is awesome and so they just whack
one in there
madness is in the eye of the beholder |
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vlad01
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| posted on April 11th, 2012 at 04:24 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
It amazes me how many people under estimate the single port engine.
The reason you don't see alot of performance ones is mainly the lack of carb choice.
There's bugger all power difference between a 1600 single port and a 1600 twin port.
My best mates sisters first bug was a 67 with a 1600 single port in it.
Their VW mechanic built the engine back in the 80s and wouldn't tell us what he'd done to it but it went harder than any stock 1600 twin port.
It's really got me f'ked how because it still had a 1300 28pict carb on it.
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I was just looking for a video of a kg single port on youtube.
this kid just increased its capacity to 1914cc with a different cam, still stock cabby and exhaust and heads.
You see him just launching it like no tomorrow and its smokes its tyres like a shower of shit right through 2nd and a chirp in 3rd!
Surprised the hell out of me
I can't find this dam video 
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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