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 68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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 posted on June 13th, 2012 at 03:54 PM |
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BRAKES - Any experts here ?
Recently I replaced My front brake pads [as I was replacing the complete front end plus some ball joints tie rod ends ,torsion bar seals] and the old
pads were worn down a bit,
Now the new pads seemed to work great, but they do NOT lock up the front wheels as the old ones did, even in the wet, it seems all the brakes are
working great, even the rear ones.?
Yesterday I really hit the brakes hard at a stop sign to see if the fronts would lock up, or whether they are working better than before.
Well, the car stopped so suddenly the passenger seat flew forwards... lol.. the locking lever was up..
so, it seems they are working just as good as the locking front brakes... but the car is stopping rather then sliding with front locked up...
The rears were adjusted up a bit over a year ago, and then there was the problem with the REGO brake check..
too much braking at the rear wheels...??
Why has new pads made all this difference?
LEE
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 vw54
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 04:18 PM |
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did u bed the new pads in ??
u may have glassed them now and will have to remove and scuff the surface of the pad
also good to replace the flex brake hoses at same time
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 04:24 PM |
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Hi
Yes I bedded them in as per instructions on another box.. lol
all brake hoses were replaced new in 2005 along with rear cylinders etc..
LEE
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vw54
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 04:29 PM |
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maybe a different compound on the pads what brand where they ( i hope not CHINESE )
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vwo60
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 05:42 PM |
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A good set of brakes do not lock up, the moment you lock the front brakes you have no control over the steering, you should be able to modulate the
brakes just above there lock up point and then you still maintanece control of the car
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Aussie Dubbin
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 05:58 PM |
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Lee, ifg you have a better feeling pedal, with no lockup then sounds great dont change a thing... As long as the braking distance hasnt been
increased. From what you have listed i am assuming the material is slightly different. Did you replace front pads in 2005?
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bigrudi
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 05:58 PM |
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the pads u have fitted to the front may be of a harder compound so slightly lower friction rating sounds like u have close to ideal weight transfer as
in rear brakes coming on first transfering weight to front end and not locking cheers Rudi
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Joel
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 06:37 PM |
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Not wanting to Hijack Lees thread too much but while we're on the topic is there any better options other than stock pads for the twin Pin ATE/Varga
style calipers that anyone knows of?
Bendix certainly dont list anything for the twin pin calipers other than standard DB15 pads.
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bigrudi
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 06:41 PM |
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EBC do a good range Greens or Reds depends on how hard ur pushing cheers Rudi
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Joel
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 07:25 PM |
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Cheers, will suss them out.
I occasionally get them a little warm and smelly with some spirited driving through the twistys but stock ones have always safely pulled up.
I do have cross drilled discs on the front and Fiat Spider discs with single pots on rear which I've been happy with but the front pads are starting
to wear down abit.
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Uber Kafer
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 07:44 PM |
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might not have been just the new pads Lee, if your photo is a guide and you have changed the front shocks a the same time. Worn shocks can be a cause
of premature brake lock up under heavy braking. Did you put new shocks on?
But yes, there are hard long-wearing pads and relatively soft fast-wearing pads, guess which ones grip best?
Also, I would prefer to have brakes that gave me the option to lock up the front, because then I would know what they are capable of, and I would use
my own judgement how much force to use based on the conditions.
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hulbyw
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 07:50 PM |
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I have TRW twin pin pads in my ATE calipers and I reckon they work well. Brake place that has many years of experience and whose recommendations I
trust sold them to me. No idea how long they last but I asked for pads with a high coeficient of friction and have been happy. Not expensive either. I
have type 3 drums on the rear with linings similar to formula vee (or so I was told).
Cheers.........Wayne
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Sides
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 07:53 PM |
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I'm no brake expert Lee, but it does sound like they're less agressive on the front, and so letting the rear do more of the effort. Makes sense if
you think of the reverse - if your rear brakes weren't working at all you'd ALWAYS lock the fronts and take more time & distance to stop, so no
wheels locking has got to be closer to the ideal.
Joel - re your hijacking I've used EBC Greens several times previously on the front and loved 'em.
Pretty sure hellbugged has 'em on a car now too - be worth sussing his thoughts, as don't suspect he drives his car at all gently !!!
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Joel
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 08:05 PM |
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I've been in the passengers seat, your suspicions are correct 
Any suppliers out there aside from RDA?
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Uber Kafer
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 08:13 PM |
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Ok Lee, it looks like your cal for an 'expert' hasnt got any responses. We are all just enthusiastic amateurs. With no consensus.
You need to search further afield than this website.
cheers.
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 matberry
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 09:46 PM |
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I'm thinking it's the new steering parts and wheel align. Before the work, the wheels would go out of alignment (due to the worn steering
components) and so would be easier to skid due the reduced traction.
Whatever the cause, your describing a tyre - road grip level, the pads may change the feel, but 'locking the fronts' is a tyre grip level which
could be the weather, the bitumen, the suspension, the brake fluid, the disc rotors, the style of driving at time of test, the earths rotational spped
compared to the local gravitational pull at your latitude .......etc etc etc...... ...well....maybe
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vlad01
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 10:10 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
A good set of brakes do not lock up, the moment you lock the front brakes you have no control over the steering, you should be able to modulate the
brakes just above there lock up point and then you still maintenance control of the car
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I was just about to say the same thing, the better the brakes including the pad compound the faster you can stop and the less they are likely to lock
up.
only shit brakes lock up is the rule, good ones don't. I am surprised how many people don't know this? they should, its just physics.
Also don't gradually slow down, slow down fast! used your brakes moderately to hard. pulsate the brakes too like abs does. your brake will continue
to work better throughout the pad and rotor life, minimizes warping and also lasts longer.
Sounds counter intuitive? no its that guy physics again.
71 notchback,
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vlad01
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 10:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bigrudi
EBC do a good range Greens or Reds depends on how hard ur pushing cheers Rudi
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I got ferrodo green ones before they were apparently bought out by EBC. so I believe it should be the same pad. they are pretty good though not so
when they are cold.
I am going to try out QFM A1RM 0-780oC pads and see how they go. I can easily fade my green ones out after a few min of my good mood driving
moments.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 11:29 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
Lee, ifg you have a better feeling pedal, with no lockup then sounds great dont change a thing... As long as the braking distance hasnt been
increased. From what you have listed i am assuming the material is slightly different. Did you replace front pads in 2005?
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No I used the old pads, must have had a lot of material still on them..
as I had the new pads I fitted them instead of wearing the old ones right down, which is safer anyway..
LEE
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 11:40 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Uber Kafer
might not have been just the new pads Lee, if your photo is a guide and you have changed the front shocks a the same time. Worn shocks can be a cause
of premature brake lock up under heavy braking. Did you put new shocks on?
But yes, there are hard long-wearing pads and relatively soft fast-wearing pads, guess which ones grip best?
Also, I would prefer to have brakes that gave me the option to lock up the front, because then I would know what they are capable of, and I would use
my own judgement how much force to use based on the conditions.
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Yes found the old shocks were still Ok, although a very soft monroe gas shocks..
on one of the side roads off the highway in Scone where I always like to take the corner at 50 kmh [usually with a semi trailer or B double on Mytail] and then brake fairly hard, if the road is wet I used to lock up the front wheels and skid straight ahead towards the median strio, so naturally
I would release the brakes and turn the steering wheel...
well, I have done this twice in the wet since and no locking up.. I've even tried to lock them up in the wet..
but it just stops..
just remembered that I have the front tyres at 18psi
I normally run about 20 PSI.. I wouldn't have thought a couple of psi would change things..
reason i swapped front ends was the RHS front wheel had a positive camber..
so, maybe all those things added up ???
LEE
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68AutoBug
A.k.a.: Lee Noonan
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 11:44 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
maybe a different compound on the pads what brand where they ( i hope not CHINESE )
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They were Bendix DB something..
I've had them for a few years...
LEE
PS: I like to leave the chinese parts to the chinese.. lol
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vw54
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| posted on June 13th, 2012 at 11:45 PM |
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theres a LOT consider here
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bajachris88
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 07:04 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
your brake will continue to work better throughout the pad and rotor life, minimizes warping and also lasts longer.
Sounds counter intuitive? no its that guy physics again.
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I was under the assumption that brake warp was due to distortion from a 'hot spot' being at the caliper and rotor when you have stopped after
braking. While the rest of the rotor vents and cools, the pads clamped to the rotor don't allow the heat to dissipate at the same rate.
So by riding them hard, you'll make the temperature difference even greater (as the hotter the whole rotor is (delta T)) the faster the rate of
cooling down will be for the 'rest' of the rotor while the stinking hot spot in the caliper remains toastie.
The concept might work for a race car, but compared to a street car, race cars don't stop at intersections and induce 'hot spots'.
Personally I rev match and down shift far prior to the corner, use the gear-braking style (without using the clutch to brake) like a truck. Then apply
the brake for the 40-50kmph left or so, say after takin an exit ramp of the pacific highway. And after driving various models, I have never had to
change the front brake pads as there was still plenty of flesh left. Plus it sounds cool  Just be sure to get those rev's up otherwise the clutch is going to hate ya.
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vwo60
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 07:12 AM |
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i found out early that the standard disc heats up quickly with some spirited driving and cannot get rid of the heat, then they fade badly, in my case
going from hardly any brakes to wheel lock with no warning, a change of pads will help this but at the end of the day they will generate more heat in
the brakes, the solid disc is a problem and they need to be replaced with vented rotors , i fabricated my set of brakes on the front using a 300MM
vented rotor, no brake fade or wheel lock up now.
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1303Steve
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 10:25 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
I've been in the passengers seat, your suspicions are correct
Any suppliers out there aside from RDA?
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Hi Joel
I put some green EBCs in Davids bug for the supersprint, no complaints or bad smells.
I got them from,
Brabond Brakes (Penshurst) Pty Ltd
504 Forest Rd, Penshurst NSW 2222, Australia
(02) 9580 7562
I think they were about $100
Steve
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1303Steve
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 10:28 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Joel
I've been in the passengers seat, your suspicions are correct
Any suppliers out there aside from RDA?
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Hi Joel
I put some green EBCs in Davids bug for the supersprint, no complaints or bad smells.
I got them from,
Brabond Brakes (Penshurst) Pty Ltd
504 Forest Rd, Penshurst NSW 2222, Australia
(02) 9580 7562
I think they were about $100
Steve
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vlad01
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 10:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vw54
maybe a different compound on the pads what brand where they ( i hope not CHINESE )
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They were Bendix DB something..
I've had them for a few years...
LEE
PS: I like to leave the chinese parts to the chinese.. lol
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I had bendix CT as well as a mate of mine. I tossed mine out in favor of the no longer in existence Ferrodo green pads. What a difference! My mate
still has his bendix and his car has ABS, worst brakes ever! you cannot stop in his car with both feet on the brakes. Stopping hard on them with the
bendix took hmm? maybe 150m or more traveling at 100km/h. they were just ok when cold but once warmed up were shockingly crap, about equivalent to
trying to stop with the integrated mini drum type handbrake alone.
Don't know why but never had good luck with bendix, kinda like noalthane, everyone raves about them but are rubbish average at best.
Lee, the Chinese are smart, they keep all the good stuff they make in their country and sell all the junk to the rest of the world. They are excellent
business people. White people are the ones that are stupid buying that crap 
The only 2 pads I would use are EBC or QFM
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 10:34 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by vwo60
i found out early that the standard disc heats up quickly with some spirited driving and cannot get rid of the heat, then they fade badly, in my case
going from hardly any brakes to wheel lock with no warning, a change of pads will help this but at the end of the day they will generate more heat in
the brakes, the solid disc is a problem and they need to be replaced with vented rotors , i fabricated my set of brakes on the front using a 300MM
vented rotor, no brake fade or wheel lock up now.
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Dude! I want those center cap decals  I been looking for
a set for ages but can't find any and ROH wont sell me any decals or center caps separately. 
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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vlad01
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 10:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
| Quote: | Originally
posted by vlad01
your brake will continue to work better throughout the pad and rotor life, minimizes warping and also lasts longer.
Sounds counter intuitive? no its that guy physics again.
|
I was under the assumption that brake warp was due to distortion from a 'hot spot' being at the caliper and rotor when you have stopped after
braking. While the rest of the rotor vents and cools, the pads clamped to the rotor don't allow the heat to dissipate at the same rate.
So by riding them hard, you'll make the temperature difference even greater (as the hotter the whole rotor is (delta T)) the faster the rate of
cooling down will be for the 'rest' of the rotor while the stinking hot spot in the caliper remains toastie.
The concept might work for a race car, but compared to a street car, race cars don't stop at intersections and induce 'hot spots'.
Personally I rev match and down shift far prior to the corner, use the gear-braking style (without using the clutch to brake) like a truck. Then apply
the brake for the 40-50kmph left or so, say after takin an exit ramp of the pacific highway. And after driving various models, I have never had to
change the front brake pads as there was still plenty of flesh left. Plus it sounds cool Just be sure to get those rev's up otherwise the clutch is going to hate ya.
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I don't leave the brakes applied when I stop, I immediately pull up the handbrake.
I just jam down through the gears when slowing down quick, no time to even slip the clutch. Its all good, nothing a little rear compression lockup in
the daily commute.
71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE |
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Matt Ryan
A.k.a.: Matt Ryan
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| posted on June 14th, 2012 at 12:43 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by 68AutoBug
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Aussie Dubbin
Lee, ifg you have a better feeling pedal, with no lockup then sounds great dont change a thing... As long as the braking distance hasnt been
increased. From what you have listed i am assuming the material is slightly different. Did you replace front pads in 2005?
|
No I used the old pads, must have had a lot of material still on them..
as I had the new pads I fitted them instead of wearing the old ones right down, which is safer anyway..
LEE
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Rule of thumb is to replace pads or shoes when they are worn to half thickness or over. Then there is far less risk of scoring disk or drum by the
time next service or brake check comes around. Also good quality pads replaced at this interval can slightly true up a disc or drum, mainly because
bugger all damage has been done yet. (did my apprenticeship on fleet maintenance).
Regards,
Matt.
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