| [ Total Views: 2958 | Total Replies: 57 | Thread Id: 98714 ] |
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 Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 11:50 AM |
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Beam rebuild- Urethane or needle rollers?
There has been a fair bit of discussion lately about the use of Urethane bushes in front beams.
As I have recently scored a few Ball Joint beams for reconditioning I thought a thread on this topic was in order.
There is quite a few who wish they had never gone away from needle rollers and others who claim they are fine if installed correctly.
What are your thoughts?
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 02:17 PM |
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Nolathane is okay in it's place IMHO.
But it is not always the answer for every application.
And is often installed incorrectly, adding to the grief.
I guess, if I was starting with a newly fabricated beam then I would be using nolathane.
I would assume that most of them are manufactured to suit.
Does the Nolathane bush replace both the inner and outer needle roller bearing too?
Or do you need the inner bush as well?
If you eliminate the inner bush then the grease is going to fill the whole beam before lubricating the outer bush.
That's a heck of a lot of grease, folks.
It's gonna make a mess, surely!
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 03:47 PM |
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I'm not 100% sure without checking My Manuals, but I would presume there are two sets of needle roller bearings for each suspension arm..
and they do Hold some grease too.. I just filled one up when replacing a front end..
so, that would mean one roller and one nolathane Urethane bush on each side...??
Needle roller bearings are an excellent bearing that can withstand all the ups & downs in a front end for over 40 years.
they do need the grease as recommended by VW though
Lithium based MOLY Grease..
Urethane bushes are NOT that hard and are more flexible than needle rollers which have no flexibility at all.
so, You have one soft urethane bush and one very hard needle roller bearing.. ??
I don't know if the grease can get past the urethane bush??
and urethane doesn't twist... [like rubber]
so, no grease until they start wearing put ???
I don't like them and I haven't evened opened the packet yet... 
My thoughts
LEE
Maybe You replace Both needle rollers...?? still BAD..
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 05:59 PM |
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I am no expert however I know the inner bearing is not a needle, it is called Micarta. It is really a bush. You can leave the Micarta bearings in and
just have urethane to replace the rollers or you can get a urethane bearing that is a long tube which replaces both the needles and the Micarta.
I have just been advised to use needle roller bearings rather than urethane by an experienced VW shop when I get Avis adjusters welded in to a stock
beam. There is another post on here where it was explained that the urethane need to be reamed to work correctly. If you were building a new beam, by
far the easiest method would be the long urethane which also use a different type of grease as well as far as I am aware.
It will be interesting to hear from urethane users though because urethane does make a very good bearing/bush according to a suspension specialist I
deal with for my 4by
Cheers.Wayne
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vwo60
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 06:00 PM |
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The needle bearing have less resistance than the urathane and will move more freely under load resaulting in a better ride, i replaced the inner and
outer bearings on my early beetle front end with some silicon aluminium bronze bushes the i machined up to suit, these also worked with the car still
riding well, i would not use the urathane as it does not have the characteristic's of the bearing you are replacing and will always have more
stiction.
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bajachris88
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 06:20 PM |
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If longevity is the key, then take it from Frog my baja, yesterday discovered that teh shimmy in teh front end was from dead Urethane front torsion
bar bush (empi brand). It just got that distorted that it allows movement of the torsion arm in the beam and thus doesn't hold the torsion arm firm.
Scary when i jacked up the wheel and found out. (was the lower passenger side bush). It was properly and regularly greased too.
The bloody bushes only saw 12 months of the road, and hadn't even had a hardcore offroad trip yet. I'm going back to needle bearings. I'm sick of
repeating work due to crap aftermarket parts, particularly if the needle bearings can last 40 years, compared to the 12 months out of the urethane.
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears. 
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 06:28 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hulbyw
I am no expert however I know the inner bearing is not a needle, it is called Micarta. It is really a bush. You can leave the Micarta bearings in and
just have urethane to replace the rollers or you can get a urethane bearing that is a long tube which replaces both the needles and the Micarta.
I have just been advised to use needle roller bearings rather than urethane by an experienced VW shop when I get Avis adjusters welded in to a stock
beam. There is another post on here where it was explained that the urethane need to be reamed to work correctly. If you were building a new beam, by
far the easiest method would be the long urethane which also use a different type of grease as well as far as I am aware.
It will be interesting to hear from urethane users though because urethane does make a very good bearing/bush according to a suspension specialist I
deal with for my 4by
Cheers.Wayne
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Hi Wayne
OK on the inner bushes instead of needle rollers
I know the 4WD people sell heaps of Nolathane bushes for 4WDs as its tougher than rubber
BUT
it doesn't flex as rubber does.. so cannot do the SAME job..
it has to move.. and movement causes wear...
I've heard of problems on rear IRS axle bushes using Nolathane as it cannot twist like the rubber ones..
so, it turns back and forth..
like if You used metal etc bushes in their place... same thing
they would wear the rear suspension away.. lol
LEE
Nolathane is a rubber like looking red bush [usually] but hard and I believe too hard to twist.. so there goes its usefulness..
as far as I can see.. so, it has to wear out... IMHO
Lee
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 07:27 PM |
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Lee, that's my point. It makes a very good bearing because it doesn't flex much, but if you need some compliance like in a shocker bushing, it
creates a lot of harshness. Some people with 4by's reckon that is good, but not me.
Used in a beam, it is not supposed to be compliant, so it works ok, but will, like any bearing, require lube
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 07:39 PM |
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 Yes I agree especially the lubrication
otherwise it cannot work
Lee
sent from My Samsung Galaxy
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nils
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 08:07 PM |
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I'm running delrin bushes. Just too add more. " what ifs" to this discussion 
and you're right, micata is more of a bush, looks, feels and works like bakerlite. not sure if you can even buy it anymore? I like needles, except
if the rolling surfaces of your arms are worn, in with case reaming bushes to suit the current size of those surfaces may bring a better result. even
if they do need replacing more often.
I really like the full bronze bushes idea, becuase delrin is brittle, very little resistance though. i swear i have broken one already 
Quit calling rust patina
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 7th, 2012 at 10:29 PM |
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YIKES
haven't heard of Delrin for many years..
and have never heard of the inner VW bush material
but know what bakelite was and looked like..
[bakelite was used as the rubbing block on points years ago]
[nolathane]
and if its not rubber like the originals it needs lubrication
cheers
LEE
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waveman1500
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 12:33 AM |
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I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the
standard beam setup works, why change it?
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vwo60
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 06:31 AM |
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100% correct, the urathane might seem a easy option but is not the correct choice of material for the job it needs to do.
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stoker
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 08:00 AM |
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i have always used delrin (trade name acetal ) for all the beams i have done and i think it is the best for this application
you can finish the id/od to size and press it in to give you about .i5mm clearance on the arm
the only critical thing is to have a seal on the outside to stop shit getting in and use a good grease(moly or a teflon based)
leave the micata bush if it is ok, if not put a delrin bush in
acetal is an engineering plastic designed for making bushes although there is some others but they are quite expensive
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 matberry
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 08:40 AM |
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No urethane for me.
100% needle rollers and fabbed internal if necessary.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 10:23 AM |
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Thanks, Matt.
What you say is where i am heading.
I'll put some pic's up shortly.
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 10:35 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by waveman1500
I don't know why so many people seem to think that they know better than the VW engineers who spent years designing it in the first place. If the
standard beam setup works, why change it?
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Those nice RED colored Nolathane bushes in the clear packets look so good...
and they weren't designed over 40- 50+ years ago....
so these NEW HEAVY DUTY bushes MUST be the best....
Well not for this little black duck...
LEE
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 10:37 AM |
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Here is a picture of a beam with the outer nedle rollers removed.
No surprises there.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 10:45 AM |
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1/ Same beam cut behind the inner bushes with the metal bush removed.
2/ Note the plastic bush that mounts the metal bush still in place inside the beam.
3/ The inner metal bush.
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 10:58 AM |
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thanks for the pics
Lee
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 12:38 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by bajachris88
If longevity is the key, then take it from Frog my baja, yesterday discovered that teh shimmy in teh front end was from dead Urethane front torsion
bar bush (empi brand). It just got that distorted that it allows movement of the torsion arm in the beam and thus doesn't hold the torsion arm firm.
Scary when i jacked up the wheel and found out. (was the lower passenger side bush). It was properly and regularly greased too.
The bloody bushes only saw 12 months of the road, and hadn't even had a hardcore offroad trip yet. I'm going back to needle bearings. I'm sick of
repeating work due to crap aftermarket parts, particularly if the needle bearings can last 40 years, compared to the 12 months out of the urethane.
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I quite agree, Chris.
I see a few issues, here
Firstly, I see the word "EMPI" and I cringe. It doesn't always mean cr@p, but too often it does.
Surely there are differences in quality, such as size, material composition etc.
How long were the nolathane bushes?
I am starting to believe that no matter what you use for the outer bearing, an inner bush is necessary for two reasons.
1/ Support the end of the trailing arm to stop movement.
2/ stop the grease dissappearing into the beam and forcing it to properly lubricate the bushes. Also, it holds the grease in place to offer continuing
lubrication in service.
In the next pic you can see a trailing arm with the bushes in their approximate location
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 12:46 PM |
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This is a pic of two worn trailing arms.
The one on the left has flat spots from the needle rollers (not that common).
The one on the right has wear from the inner bush (common occurrence).
Neither would be reusable with OEM bearings.
Nolathane would be able to be used here as it supports over a larger area.
The wear spots wil actually help lubrication by trapping grease.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 01:21 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nils
and you're right, micata is more of a bush, looks, feels and works like bakerlite.
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Is this the brown plastic bush that mounts the bush as I referred to previously?
I tried to drift one out but the impact point just powdered.
This puppy 'aint goin' nowhere!
This will have to be removed if a Duralin bush is to replace it.
I guess if you whack it in with a drift the three dimples stopping it sliding in too far will cause it to fall to bits real quick.
Pic 1 is the slipper bush that I removed from the plastic bush seen in the beam in pic 2.
The slipper bush itself looks like a spring steel slipper with sintered bronze inner which is then coated with a very thin layer of white bearing
metal.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 01:41 PM |
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Checking the bushes of a rebuilder beam.
The trailing arm is lightly greased and installed in the beam without the springpack.
Make sure the arm is in roughly the position when driving - this is where the wear occurs.
Hold the trailing arm where the grease seal sits and move the balljoint back and forth.
I am using the edge of the table for reference to the shock mount bolt.
No movement felt = good.
Slight movement (less than say 0.5 mm) = potential problem. Try to differentiate between inner and outer movement.
If the needle roller and load surface on the trailing arm look ok then they probably are.
The movement is most likely the inner bush
Probably not worth pursuing. Grease it up and drive it!
Too much movement (2 mm or more) = repair time.
If the inner trailing arm load surface is torn up, then the slipper bush will probably be in the same condition.
I believe that these bushes are torn up when a previous owner has driven a long time without lubrication.
Correctly lubricated. the OEM system will last almost indefinitely.
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 02:03 PM |
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The beam above measured up as;
LH upper and LH lower trailing arms, no movement detected.
RH lower trailing arm showed about 1.5 - 2 mm.
More than I would like but if it was the only problem i would probably live with it. Especially as it is on the right.
RH upper arm showed 3 to 4 mm movement.
No good in anyones eyes, I am sure.
So I am looking to remove both RH needle rollers ( and reuse them if possible) and make two Delrin (or similar) replacement inner bushes.
The lower arm will be okay to reuse but the upper arm is shot. That's the one pictured here (and earlier).
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 02:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Lucky Phil
I quite agree, Chris.
I see a few issues, here
Firstly, I see the word "EMPI" and I cringe. It doesn't always mean cr@p, but too often it does.
Surely there are differences in quality, such as size, material composition etc.
How long were the nolathane bushes?
I am starting to believe that no matter what you use for the outer bearing, an inner bush is necessary for two reasons.
1/ Support the end of the trailing arm to stop movement.
2/ stop the grease disappearing into the beam and forcing it to properly lubricate the bushes. Also, it holds the grease in place to offer continuing
lubrication in service.
In the next pic you can see a trailing arm with the bushes in their approximate location
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YES
You do need two bushes or a needle bearing and a bush etc
suspension arms are too long to just have one needle roller bearing unless it was about 100mms or longer...
and good info on NOT trying to take out the inner Bakelite type of bush..
How does the grease get past the inner bush??
I know it does as fresh grease always comes out past the new grease seals.. [did on the old ones too]
EMPI was a great VW parts accessory company in the 50s? and 60s... original EMPI parts are sought after..
not so the chinese/Taiwan/Indian made EMPI parts which I believe are getting better... so, someone is finally checking their quality and fit..
I grease My front end [up in the air] monthly..
LEE
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68AutoBug
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 02:07 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Lucky Phil
The beam above measured up as;
LH upper and LH lower trailing arms, no movement detected.
RH lower trailing arm showed about 1.5 - 2 mm.
More than I would like but if it was the only problem i would probably live with it. Especially as it is on the right.
RH upper arm showed 3 to 4 mm movement.
No good in anyones eyes, I am sure.
So I am looking to remove both RH needle rollers ( and reuse them if possible) and make two Delrin (or similar) replacement inner bushes.
The lower arm will be okay to reuse but the upper arm is shot. That's the one pictured here (and earlier).
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You can see the badly scored upper arm has had moisture there by the look of the water marks...
so no greasing on a regular schedule there.
and I agree. these parts do last forever is greased with lithium based MOLY Grease..
but NO lubrication is bad..
LEE
GOOD PICS TOO
- [size=4]Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY--- [/size]
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 02:38 PM |
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Thanks Lucky Phil for all the great photos and information. I now understand a lot better how my Bug beam all fits together and what to look for when
I pull the beam apart to get Avis adjusters welded in
Cheers....Wayne
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 03:07 PM |
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You are welcome Wayne. Stay tuned - there should be plenty of good stuff to follow.
Not everyone is fortunate enough to come into a bent beam to slice up.
I don't think I could have ruined a good beam just for a look inside.
Here's a pic of the needle rollers out.
They took a bit of a dent on the inside from the slide hammer, but they are okay to use again.
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matberry
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| posted on September 8th, 2012 at 04:13 PM |
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Great pics and info for everyone. Some points to note is that while all ball-joint beams are like this (and type 3 although they are different sizes),
king-link early beams have no needle rollers at all, just the plastic/bakelite material for inner and outer bearings, although the outer can be
replaced with the needle bearing as the OD's are the same, and then the later king-link '62(?)-'67 was needle outer.
It's also important to note the way the factory tooling worked. The inner bushes are small on the ID, this is because the inside of the beam is not
true dimensionally, that is, it's not a machined accurate bore, so the bushes get pressed in and then reamed to size so the hole is accurate. The
reamer uses the internal torsion bar location in the centre of the beam and the needle roller location at the outside of the beam as guides to ream
the bushes true to the beam.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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