| [ Total Views: 1478 | Total Replies: 27 | Thread Id: 98755 ] |
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 Newt
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| posted on September 11th, 2012 at 12:44 AM |
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Hypothetical
If you were going to build a Baja Bug - what is the definative set up.
Newt
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bajachris88
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| posted on September 11th, 2012 at 07:52 AM |
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ensure 'man-ly-ness'! 
gotta be raised 
Otherwise a relatively stock setup will provide you lots of fun as a starting point.
imo
(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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| posted on September 11th, 2012 at 04:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Newt
If you were going to build a Baja Bug - what is the definative set up.
Newt
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It depends entirely on what you are going to use it for.
If you are talking from an offroading point f view you want something with good ground clearance, a torquey engine and a correctly selected gearbox
for ratios to suit offroading.
You want larger tyres but you don't want them rubbing on full lock of suspension compression.
You want good suspension travel, how stiff of soft it is also depends on what you're using it for.
Ground clearance is worth mentioning again cause it's one of the big things that the VWs have over 4WDs, you want more ground clearance then they
have, so when they are diffing out on ruts and obstacles you can glide over the same stuff! I've outperformed 4WDs a number of times because of
this!
I'm sure that there are many definitive setups that suit different applications. And I know myself and a lot of other people are working towards the
perfect setup. Will we ever get there? I doubt it, but experimentation is half the fun 
What do you want to use the car for?
Smiley
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Lucky Phil
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| posted on September 12th, 2012 at 08:48 PM |
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I just love the engine hanging out the back.
The beetle is the only car that you can do it like this.
The rest is merely detail. Function forms styling.
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Newt
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 12:11 AM |
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What would it be set up for?
Hm, how about a quiet drive north up to the Canning Stock Route (and back).
Any preferences on suspensions / year of Beetle Etc.
Just pondering.
Newt
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 matberry
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 08:34 AM |
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I prefer late beetles for Baja's. I think they look better as a baja, but primarily because of the burst proof door catches and better window
mechanisms. Baja's with doors flying open due to body flex is painfull......as for mechanicals..........well, there's plenty to discuss, basically
comes down to dollars but remember, one change effects about a million other things. 
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
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waveman1500
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 02:47 PM |
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In dry weather a stock Beetle would do the Canning Stock Route, as long as you don't want to drive too fast. Someone has done it in a Citroen 2CV.
Also, this guy did it solo on a pushbike with no support vehicles:
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LIFE IN THE LOW LANE
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 03:21 PM |
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Raise it and put Big rubber under it. 235/75/15 front and 12.5/35" 15 on the rear Country buggy front end with raised spindles and disc brakes front
and rear. Renault box with kombi trailing arms,spring plates, cv etc etc. add airbag suspension front and rear with a type 4 2.0l with efi and go and
embarrass any 4wd going around!! How much? Lots lol
[size=4] ACCEPT THAT SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE PIDGEON AND SOME DAYS YOU ARE THE STATUE[/size]
Alder Outlaws VW Racing - check it out on fb!!
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 07:10 PM |
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Stock Beetle do the CSR? Really?
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 08:16 PM |
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I have an almost stock Beetle and no knowledge whatsoever of Baja's. However I have done the CSR in a 4by (and met the amazing bike rider). Apart
from heaps of planning plus a way to carry lots of fuel, food and water, I agree with Brenden.You will need clearance and traction. For traction you
will need some power, good tyres and low tyre pressures. Above all, raise it!(no pun intended)
Cheers......Wayne
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 10:02 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Newt
Hm, how about a quiet drive north up to the Canning Stock Route (and back).
Any preferences on suspensions / year of Beetle Etc.
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What Life in the Low Lane has suggested would be a pretty good Baja, but way overkill for your needs 
What sort of terrain is the Canning Stock Route?
Mostly dirt tracks with corrugations? Are there ruts, steep climbs or rocky sections?? River crossings?
If you just want to be able to go for a quiet drive up a mild to medium sort of dirt road then you will only need a quite basic Baja. As Matt has
suggested a late model offers a number of improvements over the earlier cars including better door latches, larger windows and stiffer stronger
bodies.
Either torsion bar front suspension will be fine for this there are pluses and minuses for both. The Link Pin front you can get more travel out of
them with a few simple mods and there are a lot more aftermarket offroad parts available for them. But they a more labour intensive to maintain then
balljoint, you need to grease them frequently and adjust your link pins. Ball joint front has less moving parts, disc brakes on the front and they
ride slightly better than link pin too. But you are limited in your travel by the angle of the balljoints (which is still quite good)
For your application either rear suspension will also be fine.
Swingaxle is twitchier to drive but is simpler, lighter and as long as you keep it stock height and don't drive like a madman you shouldn't run into
any bad handling issues. The 60s model swingaxle boxes offer low enough ratios that you can turn a big tyre without too many issues (I was running 31s
and a 1300 singleport on Alyce for a while). With larger tyres you will break the stock rear gearbox mounts, I went through a few sets. It's a good
idea to add a strap kit or gearbox brace to strengthen all this up.
IRS is obviously the better suspension, for handling, height and travel, but you also get more moving parts, 2 more boots to rip and more unsprung
weight. Gear ratios can also be a bit of an issue with larger tyres unless you swap in a Kombi box. If you don't want to go to the effort of
converting to a Kombi box then a Type 3 IRS box is your best bet, they have a lower diff ratio then a Beetle box which is going to help turn those big
tyres.
So keeping with the late model theme I would recommend getting a 68 or later standard Beetle, balljoint front with a cut and turn (or adjusters) for a
little more height, and either swingaxle rear and run a 60s model 1300 gearbox or swap to IRS and run a Type 3 IRS Box. Alternatively you can find a
Semi-auto Beetle and convert it to manual or a 1976 Beetle as both these models have balljoint front and IRS rear.
You will probably want to run a 26-28" tall tyre on the front and a 29-31" on the back, the rears will depend on your transaxle choice and how much
power your engine has.
One other thing you could do is build what's called a Class 11 look car. These are based on the Class 11 cars that race in the Baja 1000 etc in
America. They are basically a Baja without the chop, still very capable offroad but they don't have as good approach/departure angles. They aren't
common at all in Australia and it would be a cool little thing to build that would be a bit different then just another Baja. Here's a couple of
examples.
It's easy to suggest mega upgrades but we all know that will be costly and time consuming. It will blow you away how far a very standard VW will go
offroad, trust me, in my Baja's early days she went places and drove stuff that I just couldn't believe until I did it. Start out with something
simple and you can mix and match things and make upgrades as you go. It's a lot of fun
I hope this helps you, if you have any more questions just fire away!
Smiley
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 10:06 PM |
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Another point to make. If a completely stock Prado can do the route with what looks like highway tyres or very unaggressive ATs like in the picture
above.
Then I'm fairly sure that a stock Beetle would piss it in, any improvements that you make are just going to make it easier.
Smiley
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matberry
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| posted on September 13th, 2012 at 10:13 PM |
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^^^
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 14th, 2012 at 09:17 PM |
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No wish to start a debate on the CSR and VW's abilities, however there are a number of things you would need to consider before tackling the CSR in
any petrol powered vehicle. Firstly you need to work out how to carry about 250 litres of petrol (you need to be able to cover about 1300klms between
drinks). The big advantage a Beetle would have over other petrol vehicles is that the exhaust is all out the back, rather than underneath from front
to back. The spinifex that you will likely be driving through is full of resin and catches fire on petrol driven exhausts if not cleared away with a
hook regularly. There are several burn't out 4by's on the CSR.You will also need at least 60 litres of water if you want to drink, cook and wash
yourself. Many of the wells don't have water and some of the water is only good for washing yourself. I think the guy on the bike had around 40
litres of water but he was not having a wash very often. (he did by the way have his Uncle in a 4by travelling a way behind in case of dire
emergency). You also need enough food to last you the length of the trip
Huge number of sand dunes, huge number of corregations between the dunes, stunning scenery and a massive adventure for those lucky enough to tackle
it. You don't need aggressive tyres on the sand but you do need to be able to drive up and over steep sand dunes where the tracks are 4wd width apart
and a high mound of sand in the middle. Not very friendly to a Beetle with a narrower track.
BTW, that is a Pajero, not a Prado. There is a big difference (and yes I have a Prado)
Cheers.....Wayne
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Smiley
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| posted on September 14th, 2012 at 09:40 PM |
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You make some good points. I'm not telling him to pop out and have a crack at it this weekend. It would obviously be a trip that would take plenty of
prior preparation and planning.
It's not hard to get 100L of fuel on board a VW once you fit a second tank, and if you carried a few jerry cans spare you would probably only need to
organise one fuel drop to complete the length of the route.
As mentioned above someone has done it in a 2CV and I just had a quick look on Wikipedia and someone completely the trip in 1985 in a VW beach buggy.
So it is by no means impossible.
Wouldn't the spinnifex also affect diesel vehicles that run the exhaust along the underside of the vehicle?
And sand dunes would be the least of your worries, that's where light VWs really excel!
Sorry about mixing up the 4WDs, they all look the same when they are stuck or bogged
Smiley
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 14th, 2012 at 10:16 PM |
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Spinifex is still a problem with diesel's however the diesel exhaust is apparently not as hot as a petrol. A petrol Prado actually burn't to the
ground in about 2 minutes on the CSR (there is a movie of it somewhere on the net). Very eerie feeling when you pull up and take a good look at the
remains. Yes, I have heard that beach buggies really go well on Fraser Island, which is all sand (but not dunes). Problem on the dunes is when you
belly out because of the height of the sand in between the wheel tracks. Doesn't matter how light you are or how much power you have when the belly
is on the sand and your wheels are spinning. It's then time to get out the shovel and do some landscaping. I heard last year that fuel drops had
stopped but I am not up to date on that info. We went South to North in 2009 and didn't want to rely on the fuel dump so carried 240 litres and used
220 litres of diesel to go about 1300klm's.
Cheers...Wayne
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| posted on September 14th, 2012 at 10:31 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hulbyw
Yes, I have heard that beach buggies really go well on Fraser Island, which is all sand (but not dunes). Problem on the dunes is when you belly out
because of the height of the sand in between the wheel tracks. Doesn't matter how light you are or how much power you have when the belly is on the
sand and your wheels are spinning. It's then time to get out the shovel and do some landscaping.
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They also go better up dunes than any 4WD, you just have to look at the buggies down at Stockton. And fortunately VWs also have superior ground
clearance to most 4WDs with a few minor mods, so bellying out of the sand is not really going to be an issue. A couple of buggies from Brisbane have
just done a trip across the Simpson desert and they had no issues at all with the numerous dune climbs.
I can tell you right now that a 4WD will diff out long before most VWs are sitting on the ground. I've seen it happen a few times when friends of
mine tag along in their 4WDs and I'm in my Baja.
It would be a shame if you can no longer get fuel drops. Newt might just have to build a Baja Bus instead, so he has somewhere to store all the jerry
cans. That would be a sight to see, a Kombi doing the Stock Route!
Smiley
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matberry
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| posted on September 15th, 2012 at 08:21 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by hulbyw
Problem on the dunes is when you belly out because of the height of the sand in between the wheel tracks. Doesn't matter how light you are or how
much power you have when the belly is on the sand and your wheels are spinning.
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Not at all trying to start an argument here, but with that statement, you obviously haven't driven in a HiPo VW set up for sand. The deep ruts with
center hump are easy whith 10R's, some decent IRS and plenty of power. Ask the numerous 4be's that we round up like they are standing still when the
beach is at full blown high tide in the peak of holiday season traffic. The ruts are deep enough to loose small children in, with a huge power to
weight advantage, a well set up beach Volksie will not even notice how deep the ruts are.
ps. I do also realise that I'm not talking a near stock baja, but I also don't post silly blanket statements.
(No offence intended unless you own a big heavy 4WD)
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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hulbyw
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| posted on September 15th, 2012 at 08:37 PM |
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You havn't started an argument. Silly me for trying to be helpfull
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Newt
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| posted on December 10th, 2012 at 11:11 PM |
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OK Guys,
So if I went with a Kombi box (which I just happened accross the other day at the tip and rescued before the body was crushed - ah!), would you start
with a 1600, or go with say a 1800 type 4 / kombi motor (which was attached to the box).
Just hypotheticals at the moment as Im struggling to finish my existing project).
Cheers
Newt
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nils
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| posted on December 11th, 2012 at 05:38 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
I prefer late beetles for Baja's. I think they look better as a baja, but primarily because of the burst proof door catches and better window
mechanisms. Baja's with doors flying open due to body flex is painfull......as for mechanicals..........well, there's plenty to discuss, basically
comes down to dollars but remember, one change effects about a million other things.
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what is this body flex you speak of?
IMO, and this going to sound stupid because it's the exact oposite mine.
late model, thing front end, 1800 gearbox, 2ltr type 4 motor. NO MUD TYRES!
Quit calling rust patina
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matberry
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| posted on December 11th, 2012 at 07:39 AM |
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Body flex....I was being nice, since you have no flex Nils, I'll mention another example.....heading to Valla this year, my windscreen broke and the
4 hour trip after the break I needed to have the windows down once my speed was up otherwise the doors would fly open. Prior to this situation the
doors have never popped open for me.
I've built a few Baja's, some more radical than others, and the baja Nils has described above is on the money IMO (except for the 'no mud tyres'
bit)
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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bajachris88
A.k.a.: Chris Leete
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| posted on December 11th, 2012 at 09:00 AM |
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The kombi box is awesome for crawling over hard rough stuff without having to play with the clutch all the time (just focus on the brake) because of
the awesome torque.
But just be aware such is dangerous for sand , take off in 2nd gear and
you'll be set. Too much torque in first will just rip up the wheels and dig in the soft stuff. Other option is to start the car with it already in
first great, clutch out and let teh starter roll start the car slowly.
Chris.
| Quote: | Originally
posted by Newt
OK Guys,
So if I went with a Kombi box (which I just happened accross the other day at the tip and rescued before the body was crushed - ah!), would you start
with a 1600, or go with say a 1800 type 4 / kombi motor (which was attached to the box).
Just hypotheticals at the moment as Im struggling to finish my existing project).
Cheers
Newt
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(ô_!_/ô) (ô_!_/ô)
69' baja: kombi box, thing spindles, irs, disc front, type 3 rear drums, 2 inch lift kit, 31x10 rears.
New engine in process: 94mm p&bs, 74mm C/w chomol Crank, 35.5x39 SP heads, turbo. Wierd combo, hopeful torque monsta! |
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nils
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| posted on December 11th, 2012 at 03:18 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by matberry
I've built a few Baja's, some more radical than others, and the baja Nils has described above is on the money IMO (except for the 'no mud tyres'
bit)
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sorry, still hating on my mudders at the moment. wanna buy some off me? No 3 ply sidewalls perhaps?
I have heard of plenty of early body flex/doors open stories. most notably my brother loosing his girlfiend to the asphalt while coming out of a
corner rather hard.
Quit calling rust patina
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Smiley
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| posted on December 11th, 2012 at 11:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by Newt
OK Guys,
So if I went with a Kombi box (which I just happened accross the other day at the tip and rescued before the body was crushed - ah!), would you start
with a 1600, or go with say a 1800 type 4 / kombi motor (which was attached to the box).
Just hypotheticals at the moment as Im struggling to finish my existing project).
Cheers
Newt
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What box your run will depend on your tyre size, engine power and intended offroad use of the vehicle.
Have a quick read through this thread here as there is a bit of useful info in there regarding gearboxes.
http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=89893
If you don't plan on doing heaps of miles at highway speeds I would probably suggest a 3-rib, with 31"s and a stock 1600 engine. If you're going
to have an engine with a little bit more pep you can easily go to a 5 rib and then you won't be reving quite as hard at highway speeds.
I have a 5-rib in my Baja with a 2054 Type 1 engine, it lugs along quite nicely with 31" tyres.
If you have managed to pick up a 5-rib and 1800 Type 4 engine in working order I would recommend that you run that any day of the week. The Type 4
engines make fantastic torque and will chug along all day no worries. Run that and 31" tyres and you've got the start on a great little setup.
Another positive of running the matching box and engine is that you won't have to mess around with changing input shafts in the gearbox or anything
like that. It all already fits.
If you have anymore questions don't hesitate to ask 
Smiley
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nedsbug
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| posted on December 13th, 2012 at 07:42 PM |
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Interesting thoughts on here
I dabble in patrol 4x4s,mainly the older less fantastic plastic stuff
Ive wondered how the bugs go off road,mainly due to weight issues
Bug is what 900 KGs give or take, the 4by im doin ATM tops in just over 2.5 T
Im throwin the idea around of unloading all my quads and doin a buggie of sorts, so the bug could be something to look into
Just not sure wether to,if i done a bug keepin the bug engine or goin something like a 1,000 cc motorbike engine
The mind boggles, but reality is budget
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matberry
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Mood: enjoying waving at all my Kombi buddies from my T3
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| posted on December 13th, 2012 at 09:03 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nedsbug
Interesting thoughts on here
I dabble in patrol 4x4s,mainly the older less fantastic plastic stuff
Ive wondered how the bugs go off road,mainly due to weight issues
Bug is what 900 KGs give or take, the 4by im doin ATM tops in just over 2.5 T
Im throwin the idea around of unloading all my quads and doin a buggie of sorts, so the bug could be something to look into
Just not sure wether to,if i done a bug keepin the bug engine or goin something like a 1,000 cc motorbike engine
The mind boggles, but reality is budget
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Ummm yeah.
Love showing the heavy metal (4 wheel drices) how to do it.
A bug has a few compromises and on occasion can be tricky off-road, but generally we do it 3 times faster with about 10 times the fun.
Matt Berry Motorsports...air cooled advice, repairs and mods Ph 0408 704 662
OFF-ROAD,CIRCUIT,DRAG,STREET,ENDURANCE
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Smiley
A.k.a.: Daniel Stephens
Veteran Volks Folk
Posts: 2125
Threads: 110
Registered: October 29th, 2008
Member Is Offline
Location: Yeppoon, Central Queensland
Theme: UltimaBB Pro Blue
Mood: Synchro'd
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| posted on December 16th, 2012 at 02:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by nedsbug
Just not sure wether to,if i done a bug keepin the bug engine or goin something like a 1,000 cc motorbike engine
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I wouldn't recommend this. As I'm sure you're aware when offroading that low down grunt is important. A motorbike engine isn't going to make much
torque down low at all. That would be a good setup if all you do is scream up and down beaches, but if you want to do any tracks or steeper stuff the
motorbike engine is really going to fall down.
As stated above I would recommend a Type 4 engine, even in stock form they are very good. And you can only go upwards from there!
Smiley
If you said I was a Volkswagen man, you'd be right.
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