Wheel fell off - Advice Please

drindiana Casual Dubber

23 posts · joined Mar 2012 · 20 Jun 2013, 7:11 pm

#960454

Hi All,
Am a newbie here being mostly focused on my Early Bay but am a recent new owner of a 69 Notchback "Vern". So Hi.
This afternoon I had a local tyre shop fit some new tyres to some 8 spoke wheels from CIP. Awesome they did look. Anyway.......
1km down the highway at slow speed thankfully, my rear left wheel literally fell off. I was able to pull over and get a call to the tyre shop to come and help. All thoughts firstly were on lug tightening or lack thereof. Turns out when we reassembled everything (drum came off too) that the wheel / drum interface was the culprit. There is a ridge or a lip on the rear drum that interferes. with the spokes and keeps the lugs pulling up tight. There is not much in it but enough to a big problem. Photos here..

Picture of the same drum as mine from a manual. So it seems mine are in fact stock.

So I guess apart from letting CIP know there is not a blanket "they will fit Type 3's" I was wondering if I could get some good advice from you guys.
I was thinking some machining could be possible on the drum but maybe that would perhaps compromise things. Not much is needed from my eyeballing;
An adaptor was suggested but that is not strictly legal;
Or maybe a new drum without the ridge. I did see one on eBay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VOLKSWAGEN-TYPE-3-1600-68-73-RDA-Brake-Drums-Rear-/280770896201 and CVD https://www.classicveedub.com.au/cvd_new/part_detail.aspx?parts_id=14247 that looked not to have that ridge but would that fit straight up.

Anyway any advice and experience with similar issues I would appreciate it.

cheers Shaun

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Jun 2013, 7:57 pm

#960461

Yes, that is the good thing about type 3 brake drums, You don't have to undo that very tight large axle nut like on a beetle.

You would need to look at the inside of the original brake drum to see that machining that ridge off wouldn't have any effect..?
it was just probably cast that way...
and the new ones are saving on extra weight or metal.. lol
or just redesigned??

a shim/washer etc adaptor plate.. would fix the problem easily too..
although as you say they are illegal.. in Australia

but Porsche 914/916s? had them on the cars from the factory. just a thick washer from memory..

maybe to fix a similar problem.. lol

I would prefer to machine the original brake drums as they were made by VW.. and not by some chinese who don't know what they doing.. lol
very easy to have quality problems there...
and You already know the originals do fit OK...

cheers

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

shaven Insano Dub Head

729 posts · joined Jul 2007 · 20 Jun 2013, 9:21 pm

#960477

shaun...
the old one, get rid of it... in the bin.
just buy an Original Type 3 brake drum or complete set... stick to what it had.

"When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends"

drindiana Casual Dubber

23 posts · joined Mar 2012 · 20 Jun 2013, 10:35 pm

#960488

Lee thanks for the reply.
Shaven, the ones on there look original to me and the same as the one shown in the repair manual I have.
Do you know of a 4 lug original without the ridge on the outer edge of the drum?

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Jun 2013, 10:56 pm

#960489

as many people have problems with after market wheels and brakes, there are many that have been modified or machined to fit ...
I don't think that ridge is part of any reinforcing...
as it doesn't go always round, but how deep would You need to go?? like 5-8mm may be OK.. or only the outer ridge and not any of the inner ridge...

and 2nd hand type 3 drums aren't hard to find...

but I don't think taking that ridge off would be any problem..
if its only a few mms... and not 15-20mms??

adaptor plates or really only spacer washers here, could already be available.. ??

I have seen them for sale on here at times...

maybe they are used on race or track or off road cars???

cheers

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Jun 2013, 11:06 pm

#960491

shaven wrote:shaun...
the old one, get rid of it... in the bin.
just buy an Original Type 3 brake drum or complete set... stick to what it had.

there isn't anything wrong with the brake drum, unless it was damaged.. and then an original one will fix that..
but the problem is the ridge of the brake drum stops the wheel from seating flat on the brake drum as it should

that is both rear brake drums don't fit the new wheels correctly...

Lee

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 20 Jun 2013, 11:28 pm

#960494

Check out ebay...

lots of spacers from the UK & the US...

4 x 100 Hubcentric Wheel Spacers

lugs-n-stuff is the store in the USA.

You would need longer bolts too..

Lee

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

drindiana Casual Dubber

23 posts · joined Mar 2012 · 21 Jun 2013, 9:44 am

#960525

Thanks Lee you have really helped. Am going to work on the drums.
cheers Shaun

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 · 21 Jun 2013, 5:54 pm

#960554

68AutoBug wrote:Check out ebay...

lots of spacers from the UK & the US...

4 x 100 Hubcentric Wheel Spacers

lugs-n-stuff is the store in the USA.

You would need longer bolts too..

Lee

still illegal to fit spacers or adaptors in this country without engineering. yes a lot of people do it but no its not legal.
the cars that have them fitted as standard are passed with them fitted from factory

“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 23 Jun 2013, 10:58 pm

#960845

drindiana wrote:Lee thanks for the reply.
Shaven, the ones on there look original to me and the same as the one shown in the repair manual I have.
Do you know of a 4 lug original without the ridge on the outer edge of the drum?

they should have the ridge.

i am quite surprised you have this problem coz i have 8 spoke wheels too and they fit fine in all aspects.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

drindiana Casual Dubber

23 posts · joined Mar 2012 · 24 Jun 2013, 4:40 pm

#960886

They were sitting proud a mm or two where the ridge is/was. The curves of the spokes were hitting the ridge. I bought them from CIP because all up including delivery they were less $$ than the EMPI units but with an extra 5mm ET at 35mm ET. My guess is that extra 5mm is perhaps a contributing factor. On the CIP box and on the wheels themselves was the John Brown Wheels logo which is the Midlands wheels UK brand these days.
Anyway we ground down part of the ridge to get them to fit and I now have about a 1mm or 2 all round from the back side of the spokes and the drum. Thankfully not much was needed to come off and the drums still look pretty solid.
Still am surprised after all these years I seem to be the only guy posting on this. Maybe because spacers are illegal here and not elsewhere perhaps.

Nobody wanted to own it though, Tyre shop had a point but they should have noticed, CIP said not in 40 years had we heard this, must be aftermarket drums.....No not true and bet they will still market as fitting all Type 3's without a warning. Anyway I own it, I fix it. Thankfully it didn't result in people being hurt. Then the whole thing gets real messy.

I put it down to experience. Always good to have a sounding board and you guys helped. Cheers.

SebastienPeek Custom Title Time!

1,657 posts · joined May 2011 · 24 Jun 2013, 5:42 pm

#960893

I run spacers every day now, makes my wheels sit better, and clear my front calipers when I go to 6 pot.

In saying that, try and always get hubcentric wheels. If you can't there are things called spigot rings which you can use to feel the gap between the bore of the drum/rotor to the bore of the wheel.

The sold one, '73 VW 1303 - Zelda
The project, '74 VW 1303 - Gretl

dragsters for life Fahrvergnugen

953 posts · joined May 2011 · 24 Jun 2013, 5:46 pm

#960894

get the ridge ground off, thats what i had to do to mine with a set of wheels i wanted to mount

volkaholics.net come check us out

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 24 Jun 2013, 6:00 pm

#960898

vlad01 wrote:i am quite surprised you have this problem coz i have 8 spoke wheels too and they fit fine in all aspects.

Empi 8 spokers have been made by that many different companies over the years that there is a variety of offsets and widths out there, some fit better than others depending how the insides of the spokes were cast.

There was a big problem with one set of them (Rocket brand from memory) hitting the nipple on Varga calipers.

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 24 Jun 2013, 6:40 pm

#960908

Joel wrote:
vlad01 wrote:i am quite surprised you have this problem coz i have 8 spoke wheels too and they fit fine in all aspects.
Empi 8 spokers have been made by that many different companies over the years that there is a variety of offsets and widths out there, some fit better than others depending how the insides of the spokes were cast.

There was a big problem with one set of them (Rocket brand from memory) hitting the nipple on Varga calipers.

So when did the 8 spoke start? Curious to know how old mine are, they look oldish and not new like the current ones. From a guess probably 90s

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 24 Jun 2013, 6:50 pm

#960911

Way back when EMPI was still an American company making Quality parts in the late 60s.

The 8 spokers came out when 4 studders started and were proper 2 piece rims back then.

vlad01 Compulsive Aussie Vee Dubber

4,270 posts · joined Jun 2010 · 26 Jun 2013, 3:02 pm

#961117

Joel wrote:Way back when EMPI was still an American company making Quality parts in the late 60s.

The 8 spokers came out when 4 studders started and were proper 2 piece rims back then.

Nope, mine a cheap copies then lol.

I piece and much crappy looking casting than those.

71 notchback,
Past owner of, 70 NB, 73 SB and 72 FB TLE

68AutoBug Beetle Restorer - Experience over 138\% - YIKES --

11,654 posts · joined Aug 2002 · 27 Jun 2013, 2:53 pm

#961225

Joel wrote:Way back when EMPI was still an American company making Quality parts in the late 60s.

The 8 spokers came out when 4 studders started and were proper 2 piece rims back then.

that was a long time ago Joel.. lol

Many people on here wouldn't know what EMPI stood for.. lol

and i didn't know they had two piece rims.. lol

LEE

- Helping keep Air Cooled VWs on the road - location: SCONE in the Upper Hunter Valley - Northern NSW 320 kms NNW of SYDNEY---

Joel Now containing 100\% E-Wang

9,368 posts · joined Feb 2006 · 27 Jun 2013, 3:09 pm

#961226

68AutoBug wrote:that was a long time ago Joel.. lol

Many people on here wouldn't know what EMPI stood for.. lol

and i didn't know they had two piece rims.. lol

LEE

Once many many moons ago it was European Motor Products Inc but these days it's Every Mistake Passes Inspection.