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Super chargers.

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VWFREAK VWFREAK

2,577 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#215439
Has anyone out there ever attempted to graft a toyota super charger onto a T1 before. I'm after some advise on the installation and past problems etc.

I intend using it on a T1, 1640 with Twin Kads. Any ideas?
:vader

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215453
The CBB Drag car has used one and even two of these blowers on a type 1 engine.

They are probably more suited to type 4 engines tho - there was a guy at the nationals with this set up.

I don't know how you intent running the dual kadrons thru one blower tho! One carby would be used. But really for it to be effective you need to inject.

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215454
The homegrown methods of using them that I have seen have been shady at the most generous...

VWFREAK VWFREAK

2,577 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#215462
Thanks guys, I'll keep on researching it further.

Secoh Fahrvergnugen

926 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215544
There are two main toyota superchargers you will come across:
SC12 which is from the 4AGZE 1600cc corolla which pumps 1200cc and;
SC14 from the 1GGZE 2.0L six cylinder from the Soarer, Supra and Celsior. The se flow 1400cc.

Both of these are only good for about 12,000 to 14,000 rpm before they cavitate and get excessive wear.

They are not clearanced to have fuel pass through them in a draw through application, so if it's used in draw-through they tend to wear the coating off the rotors and wear relatively rapidly.

They use a clutch and bypass valve which allows the supercharger to be automatically disengaged at idle. It only engages once the motor reaches a certain rpm (1500 I think?). It's not a good idea to switch them Mad Max style for a number of reasons.

There is some vacuum hoses that fit to the casing which people often disconnect, these need to be plumbed in properly as they pressure compensate the oil chamber in the charger to prevent the oil seals leaking or blowing out.

They run about 8psi stock boost from memory though I could be wrong here. Pulley size and engine capacity dictates boost level. an SC14 set to run at a 1:1 ratio would be the best compromise between intake heat and boost. You really should run an intercooler with any forced induction project, but you cannot do this with a draw-through system.

The other common charger is the Eaton M90 as used on the commodore, this is a bit large for anything under 2.5-3.0L.

SC12 is worth about $300 and an SC14 is worth about $350-$450 depending on the importer. any more than that and you are being robbed. I got my Eaton M90 for $600.

Lots of good general info at www.performanceforums.com in the tech section.

Hope this helps 🙂

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Secoh]
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215701
there's another supercharger thread here;
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=23611

And by the way, air doesn't cavitate, superchargers don't cavitate. Cavitation is where a liquid flashes off (boils) into a gas due to a localised low pressure. It happens in a destructive manner, such that the gas bubbles form and collapse rapidly. It happens on the low pressure (trailing) side of impellors spinning in a liquid.

Air doesn't cavitate, because air doesn't boil, because air is a gas.

The power required to drive a supercharger (or fan) is cubicly related to the speed of rotation, so you reach a certain point where the supercharger belt just won't have enough grip to drive it any faster. The belt will start slipping. Trying to overdrive it further will just result in more belt slippage.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215725
Thes blowers work best with some fuel being fed thru (ie - running wet). Both the CBB drag car which uses two of these and several hotrods (yes these same blowers are being used on small block chevs) also running wet have experienced high rev cavitation because it is a vapour being compressed.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215783
HotRodMatt wrote:experienced high rev cavitation because it is a vapour being compressed.
They are mis-using the term cavitation. I don't know what they are trying to explain, or what the symptoms are, but it's not cavitation.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#215790
i agree with wes as a person qualified hydralics maintaner a gas can not cavitate because the definition of cavitation is when the pressure decreases to a point at which soluble gases defuse from a liquid in which they are defused
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215791
It is cavitation. Vapour forms bubbles! The compression of a wet gas makes it near liquid. Hence cavitation occurs.

Even a Toyota employed specialist confirmed it!

barls Administrator Causer of Chaos and Mayhem

9,473 posts · joined Jun 2004 ·

#215797
ok im walking away from this one cause i was taught some thing different in my hydralics and pneumatics course.
“We all pay for life with death, so everything in between should be free.” Bill Hicks
the chaos project - click me

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215807
well I can tell you none of the engineering I have ever working with would ever call what your describing cavitation, and it doesn't fit with any engineering definition I have ever seen for cavitation, therefore it would be safe to conclude it is not technically cavitation.

I have seen and investigated the explosion of very large industrial pumps which was aggrevated by cavitation. trust me, it's a different animal.

cavitation may have been the best way the toyota guy could approximately describe it.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215814
how do you explain cavitation under an aeroplanes wing then?

By the way. The Toyota guy - he's the head of technical services.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215823
you don't have cavitation under an aeroplanes wing.

Show me anywhere a definition of cavitation that would describe air flow under a plane wing.

After thinking more about the cavitation in the air/fuel supercharger, I suppose the fuel droplets are droplets of liquid although very small, and you could get an apparent cavitation within the droplet, but I personally would be describing it more like the fuel flashing off. It's not true cavitation.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215845
I would actually be interested to see what the toyota guy actually said. I would be very suprised if he said outright, "oh, it's cavitation". He may have described it another way and it has just been spread be word of mouth in a more simplied description simply being "cavitation".
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215847
His warning was to the chev guys using them with overhead injection that it was tried by Toyota and the vapour caused cavitation at the rate of overdrive being used to feed the SBCs. Only the idle fuel is delivered above with the main fuel coming in directly into the ports.

Secoh Fahrvergnugen

926 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#215861
Look, whatever, they don't bloody work after 14,000rpm. Apparently, my mate's brother's uncle's nephew's dog's owner's roommate (twice removed) once heard a bloke in a pub say that after a certain rpm an air pump will not draw in any more atmosperic air due to the time it takes for air under atmospheric conditions to fill the void the rotor displaces as the rotor is moving faster than the air does, therefore it's like egg-beating thickened cream with the beater on mega high speed. The medium doesn't get pumped anywhere, it just sits there fat dumb and happy.

Fine, it's not cavitation, but the effect is the same, minus the pitting degredation and engineering banter.

I'll have to go dig out my fluids textbook for the full description but my hazy memory tells me Wes that you are calling two symptoms one thing.

[Edited on 11-8-2004 by Secoh]
If it aint broke,
Make it go faster!!

Che Castro ankle straps

1,945 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#215862
you guys are too anal 🙂

chill out !
Jon

Baja Wes V6 Baja Pioneer

3,119 posts · joined Aug 2002 ·

#216054
Sorry about being anal, it's an engineer thing. 🙂 I don't like seeing terms mis-used.

We're all here to learn, I am no different. If someone can show me where a respectable source has defined cavitation as something other than what I have been taught and what I know from experience, then I'd like to see it for my own learning.
Wes - www.offroadvw.net - 200HP Quad Cam V6 in a VW Baja - with climate control... 🙂
www.taylorcycles.com.au - My DH MTB racing brothers shop.

VWFREAK VWFREAK

2,577 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#216056
Thanks for the info, does anyone out there have step by set instructions for instilation, which may assist me. I'm new to the supercharger world, but kean to learn.

Thanks guys

wacked1 Custom Title Time!

1,508 posts · joined Jul 2003 ·

#216126
can't help there but there was a bus with this kind of SC it was owned by greedy51 if you u2u him and ask politely and offer him sexual favors he might help you.

cheers
ron
YOU HAVE JUST BEEN DAKED
don't worry it's a VW thing

HotRodMatt If it\'s old or rare - cut it!

3,616 posts · joined Sep 2002 ·

#216129
It's owned by someone else now and he's trying to sell it.

I wouldn't be using that sort of set up - for starters you really need injection to make them work properly and using the standard manifolds won't do the job.

wacked1 Custom Title Time!

1,508 posts · joined Jul 2003 ·

#216130
don't really know much about the bus. and would agree with you there matt to run injection. a lot of holden v6 are running this SC aswell
YOU HAVE JUST BEEN DAKED
don't worry it's a VW thing

boof2332 Custom Title Time!

1,210 posts · joined May 2004 ·

#216760
Back onto blowers, i do not think there are many modern blowers which would work as a draw through. They are all alot more efficient than their predessors and are designed for a blow through injection set up.

I got one last week off ebay...there are plenty for sale...the one to get if you do not choose a toyota model is the eaton m45 and m62 off the slkmercedes and c200 kompressor 2.0l.

There is a m45 for $205us...with shipping landed was $400.
Really compact and fit well ina bug set up.....here is a pic.
This is an eaton m62 for 2.3-3.0l...m45 looks the same in most case....they all vary slightly from mobel to model.

Matt

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